Anyone Paying Tithing Online?

[rongo]

I have no doubt there have been at times bishops and other leaders who see themselves as 'tithing police' (I assume people get the reference, if not I'll spell it out), but I just don't see that attribute as being all that common though I do think due to what is done with fast offerings there is a different type and reason for concern to increase those.

I would be interested in whether people feel that "tithing (or fast offering) policing" is inappropriate. When I was a bishop, I would look over tithing records and talk to people when something glaring stuck out (such as a tithe-payer going from paying regularly to not paying anything over months, both spouses working; obvious underpaying given their job; full tithe payers who haven't paid a dime in fast offerings, etc.). If you simply print the tithing settlement report at any time during the year, it gives the tithing and other offerings, year to date. Are there really people who feel that the bishop should not take initiative and ask if they notice something obvious? Is the concern that they checked in the first place, and therefore knew that something was amiss? Non-payment of fast offering is more common than most would think, even for very active members, and simply pointing out to most that, while the amount is between the member/couple and the Lord (unlike tithing), we covenant to pay some amount of fast offerings. I'll bet there are some who feel that asking about and giving counsel on this is inappropriate, but it's important and effective in raising necessary fast offering funds where needed.

[Calm]

It would depend to me on why the individual was asking. If he saw something irregular and was concerned that the family was having trouble for example, would be a good reason to inquire. I am thinking more of someone who is less thinking about the individual and more thinking about how to manage to get a total tithing amount to make his ward and thus himself look good.

[rongo]

It would depend to me on why the individual was asking. If he saw something irregular and was concerned that the family was having trouble for example, would be a good reason to inquire. I am thinking more of someone who is less thinking about the individual and more thinking about how to manage to get a total tithing amount to make his ward and thus himself look good.

In my case, it was more of option #3: Concern for spiritual welfare and not keeping covenants. My initial thought wasn't "Wow --- they aren't paying tithing. I wonder if they've fallen on hard times." It was "Wow. He's a businessman, and she's an ER nurse and they haven't paid tithing for eight months" (true example). When they had appointments to renew their recommends, I met with both of them together before the interview. The wife was completely unaware that tithing hadn't been paid, and it was an awkward and tense situation for the husband (he simply hadn't wanted to pay tithing, but was otherwise active). In their case, I renewed hers and did not renew his. I sense that some here would be outraged at this, insisting that it wasn't any of my business. I strongly disagree. I feel that priesthood leaders can and should ask follow-up questions if they see or feel that something is wrong.

[Tacenda]

In my case, it was more of option #3: Concern for spiritual welfare and not keeping covenants. My initial thought wasn't "Wow --- they aren't paying tithing. I wonder if they've fallen on hard times." It was "Wow. He's a businessman, and she's an ER nurse and they haven't paid tithing for eight months" (true example). When they had appointments to renew their recommends, I met with both of them together before the interview. The wife was completely unaware that tithing hadn't been paid, and it was an awkward and tense situation for the husband (he simply hadn't wanted to pay tithing, but was otherwise active). In their case, I renewed hers and did not renew his. I sense that some here would be outraged at this, insisting that it wasn't any of my business. I strongly disagree. I feel that priesthood leaders can and should ask follow-up questions if they see or feel that something is wrong.

I'm quite impressed that you renewed hers since technically she didn't pay it.

[rongo]

It wasn't her fault. Her husband had always paid both of their tithing (I know many couples who do this, and like with them, if the responsible spouse were to stop paying, the other one wouldn't know, unless it were to come forward through other means)---- and she assumed that he was continuing to do so. She was *extremely* upset that her tithing had not been paid. I pay for both me and my wife, too, except she is a stay-at-home mom so her income is pretty uncomplicated (she does have things to pay tithing on --- we tithe gifts, birthday money, etc., and she has done things for people and been paid). After this happened, I asked my wife what would happen if she found out that I had not been paying our tithing but had led her to believe that I had. Our testimony of tithing is so strong due to experiences we have had and our spiritual witness that this hypothetical would be a real blow to the gut for her (for me, too). Not paying tithing or trying to figure out how we can nickel-and-dime the Lord is nothing we want to play around with or take lightly.

Edited June 2, 2013 by rongo

[Tacenda]

Rongo, not too long ago my bishop had a sacrament meeting totally centered on tithing. The speakers were a couple that formerly never could manage to pay it. Apparently they had a change of heart and started paying. And they had to give talks about it. What do you think about this? Was it right? I could tell the wife felt a little uncomfortable.

[Calm]

I could tell the wife felt a little uncomfortable.

While certainly possible that the discomfort was about the subject, there are plenty who feel uncomfortable just being in the position of giving a talk no matter what the subject....like myself. I would also probably be very uncomfortable teaching a principle I hadn't lived all that much unless I had a strong confirmation of its value recently (as a side note, I have had a very strong confirmation of the value of tithing in the past). Edited June 2, 2013 by calmoriah

[Bernard Gui]

I understand it is also designed for those with very large incomes, for those sensitive for privacy issues. I remember as a financial clerk that we had a member paying a very large tithing each month, and it blew me away. I felt very awkward every time I saw him. Very silly, of course.

Anyway, thanks to all for the info, and we will use the old way of payment until it gets automated. Did not realize that it created such a burden.

It's not a big deal...just a bit of extra work.

[Bernard Gui]

In our area (Pacific Northwest), when a member pays electronically, we receive a check with the allocation instructions printed

at the bottom. We fill out a tithing slip and account for it in the usual way. A clerk or bishopric member who gets off on seeing the

amount of others' donations should be released toot sweet. As a former bishop, I wish all members would pay abundant fast offerings

in addition to tithing. Fast offerings is our best way to live the law of consecration and it goes directly to benefit those in need. It is an

inspired program. All church denominations should do it.

[Okrahomer]

I sense some underlying tension between you and us online tithe payers:). I never knew it caused more work for the clerks, in fact I thought it was just the opposite as it was one less tithe to process. Is it an onerous task to take out your check book each month and pat your mortgage, utilities, etc, probably not, but it sure is more convenient to do it online.

Perhaps this has already been clarified, so I apologize in advance if I'm repeating information already offered. There are (at least) two types of Bill pay options at work here:

EFT Direct to Church Headquarters: The OP has to do with using a bank's bill pay system to send funds via EFT (Electronic Funds Transfer) directly into LDS Church headquarters. If one uses this option, the local Ward/Branch clerk has exactly zero (0) tasks to complete. In fact neither the clerk nor the Bishopric have any idea what funds members may or may not be sending directly into Church headquarters. All the accounting is done at Church headquarters. The Donations Department sends participants a monthly donation summary for the EFT donations. The Donations Department also sends a “consolidated” end-of-year statement for tax purposes. The end-of-year statement is “consolidated”, because most members who utilize the EFT system still pay Fast Offerings and other donations the old-fashioned way, i.e., via cash or hand-written checks made out to their local Ward/Branch. The consolidated end-of-year statement combines the EFT donations with local Ward/Branch donations.

I’ve been sending tithing this way for about 2 years now; and I pay all other offerings locally the old-fashioned way. The EFT option was not difficult to set up, but it did require brief e-mail communication with the Church Donations Department and a completed EFT Agreement indicating my membership number, before I could use it. When I contacted the Donations Department by phone, I got the impression that the EFT system was still a bit new, and that they were neither encouraging nor discouraging members in the U.S. from making donations this way. You can read one person's more detailed description here: http://voices.yahoo....ne-4549485.html

Bank-completed Check to local Bishop: The other bill pay option does not involve an EFT. In this case the bank produces an actual hard-copy check which is then mailed (by the bank) to the local Bishop. Since it is delivered without a donation slip the Clerk and/or member of the Bishopric doing the accounting that Sunday must interrupt the normal routine and complete a donation slip on behalf of the person making the donation. The slip must be completed, because it fills a critical role in Ward/Branch accounting systems. Since I am also a Ward Clerk, I can vouch for those who have previously indicated that this option does cause a bit of extra “work.”

Edited June 5, 2013 by Okrahomer

[omni]

Perhaps this has already been clarified, so I apologize in advance if I'm repeating information already offered. There are (at least) two types of Bill pay options at work here:

EFT Direct to Church Headquarters: The OP has to do with using a bank's bill pay system to send funds via EFT (Electronic Funds Transfer) directly into LDS Church headquarters. If one uses this option, the local Ward/Branch clerk has exactly zero (0) tasks to complete. In fact neither the clerk nor the Bishopric have any idea what funds members may or may not be sending directly into Church headquarters. All the accounting is done at Church headquarters. The Donations Department sends participants a monthly donation summary for the EFT donations. The Donations Department also sends a “consolidated” end-of-year statement for tax purposes. The end-of-year statement is “consolidated”, because most members who utilize the EFT system still pay Fast Offerings and other donations the old-fashioned way, i.e., via cash or hand-written checks made out to their local Ward/Branch. The consolidated end-of-year statement combines the EFT donations with local Ward/Branch donations.

I’ve been sending tithing this way for about 2 years now; and I pay all other offerings locally the old-fashioned way. The EFT option was not difficult to set up, but it did require brief e-mail communication with the Church Donations Department and a completed EFT Agreement indicating my membership number, before I could use it. When I contacted the Donations Department by phone, I got the impression that the EFT system was still a bit new, and that they were neither encouraging nor discouraging members in the U.S. from making donations this way. You can read one person's more detailed description here: http://voices.yahoo....ne-4549485.html

Thanks Okra, I've been doing the EFT method so it looks like I'm not causing any extra work:)

Bank-completed Check to local Bishop: The other bill pay option does not involve an EFT. In this case the bank produces an actual hard-copy check which is then mailed (by the bank) to the local Bishop. Since it is delivered without a donation slip the Clerk and/or member of the Bishopric doing the accounting that Sunday must interrupt the normal routine and complete a donation slip on behalf of the person making the donation. The slip must be completed, because it fills a critical role in Ward/Branch accounting systems. Since I am also a Ward Clerk, I can vouch for those who have previously indicated that this option does cause a bit of extra “work.”

[rodheadlee]

I'll be joyful, happy and ecstatic to start paying tithing, it'll mean I'm back in the USA and making money again, the cruising kitty is empty. 340 miles to go.

[Tacenda]

Saw this on NOM just now, since traffic is so slow, I'm forced to read that board.

http://personalfinance.byu.edu/files/54%20Concerning%20Tithing%20-%20Romney%20Jun80.pdf

"Tithing is not a free-will offering; it is a debt, payment of which brings great blessings."

Is this still being taught?

[rongo]

It's not "taught," per se, but it's certainly one way to look at it. I owe *everything* to God, *nothing* really "belongs" to me. He requires 10%. What's wrong with looking at it as a debt? Aside from the fact that it really is a free-will offering ---- nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you pay it. It isn't included in payroll withholding, like it is in Europe if you are Catholic or Lutheran (depending on the country). I think that considering it a "debt" to God is one way of looking at it, similar to different atonement models are different ways of looking at it, with none of them being the "grand unifying" comprehensive way to understand it.

[Calm]

I would suggest doing a search on lds.org for "tithing" and "free will offering" or "debt" or "payment" to see what comes up more recent than 1980.

I would agree with rongo, that is one way to look at tithing and it is not inaccurate.

This is how tithing is generally taught now:

We have been given commandments to help us prepare in every way to live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. He has given us a way to thank Him for our blessings. Willingly paying tithes and offerings is one way we thank Him. As we pay these offerings, we show that we love Him and will obey His counsel.....When we pay tithing we show our faithfulness to the Lord. We also teach our children the value of this law. They will want to follow our example and pay tithing on any money they receive.....t is important to give willingly. “When one pays his tithing without enjoyment he is robbed of a part of the blessing. He must learn to give cheerfully, willingly and joyfully, and his gift will be blessed” (Stephen L Richards, The Law of Tithing [pamphlet, 1983], .

The Apostle Paul taught that how we give is as important as what we give. He said, “Let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7)......As members of the Church, we give tithing and other offerings to the Lord....The Lord promises to bless us as we faithfully pay our tithes and offerings. He said, “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith … if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it” (Malachi 3:10).

Latter-day revelation tells of another blessing for those who tithe: “Verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming” (D&C 64:23).

The blessings we have been promised are both material and spiritual. If we give willingly, Heavenly Father will help us provide for our daily needs of food, clothes, and shelter. Speaking to Latter-day Saints in the Philippines, President Gordon B. Hinckley said that if people “will accept the gospel and live it, pay their tithes and offerings, even though those be meager, the Lord will keep His ancient promise in their behalf, and they will have rice in their bowls and clothing on their backs and shelter over their heads. I do not see any other solution. They need a power greater than any earthly power to lift them and help them” (“Inspirational Thoughts,” Ensign,Aug. 1997, 7). The Lord will also help us grow “in a knowledge of God, and in a testimony, and in the power to live the gospel and to inspire our families to do the same” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Heber J. Grant [2002], 124).

Those who pay their tithes and offerings are greatly blessed. They have a good feeling that they are helping to build the kingdom of God on earth.

http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-32-tithes-and-offerings?lang=eng Edited June 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

... I remember when I use to hang out on NOM, and reading about paying online, several on there were stating that that's what they wanted to do and some even said they wouldn't need to pay a full tithe.

To be clear, Tacenda, I'm not saying this is what you would do (or that you're advocating this approach), OK? Whatever you do is between you and the Lord. Now, with that disclaimer out of the way, if the only thing that matters to someone is appearances, one can make a show of paying tithing by handing an envelope containing some token amount (an amount not representing a full tithe) to a member of the Bishopric every month, lie to one's Bishop and Stake President to obtain a Temple Recommend, and skip tithing settlement every year (or even, if one has the temerity, attend tithing settlement every year and lie through one's teeth that the $100 [or whatever the token amounts in those envelopes handed to the Bishop add up to] represent a full tithe for Brother Cheatham, partner in the Law Firm of Meetem, Cheatham, Beatem, and Run). There's no need for one to go to the great lengths of taking advantage of an obscure, apparently little-used procedure in order to do that.

Rongo, not too long ago my bishop had a sacrament meeting totally centered on tithing. The speakers were a couple that formerly never could manage to pay it. Apparently they had a change of heart and started paying. And they had to give talks about it. What do you think about this? Was it right? I could tell the wife felt a little uncomfortable.

Perhaps recruiting speakers for every week is a much more difficult, much different procedure than I envision, but I can only speak to what I know. As my ward's Executive Secretary, I've been given the responsibility for asking people to give opening and closing prayers in Sacrament Meeting every week. I don't have an AR-15. I don't have a Glock-9 automatic pistol as a backup weapon. I don't have any body armor in case people are tempted to punctuate their vehemence about avoiding praying in Sacrament Meeting with violence involving their own use of ammunition. I ask, and they tell me either, "Yes." or "No." When they tell me no, I don't put them on the naughty list. I don't mentally consign them to the seventh circle of Hell. I don't run and tattle to the Bishop recommending that excommunication proceedings be commenced forthwith. I don't even think less of them, or love them any less as my brothers and sisters in Christ. I simply conclude that praying in Sacrament Meeting isn't Brother or Sister Hickenlooper's cup of [herbal!] tea and ask someone else. Now, perhaps, as I said, getting speakers lined up is a much different deal, and maybe current or former Bishops and Counselors can speak to that. But I don't imagine it's much different: "Brother Hickenlooper, will you speak next week in Sacrament Meeting on the topic of Tithing as Fire Insurance?" "No, you'd rather not? Well, we'll look forward to seeing you next Sunday, OK?" [Former] Bishops and Counselors, what about it? Are you armed? Do you wear body armor? Do you put those who refuse on the naughty list, consign them to the seventh circle of Hell, or initiate excommunication proceedings? Edited June 8, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

And to add to my previous post, I don't do [or refrain from doing] something (like paying Tithing) simply because I won't be able to have my ticket into the temple stamped, "Worthy! Admit One!" (Or at least, I don't do/not do these things solely for that reason, even if it is one reason why I do them.) I once saw a banner in a Seminary building that left a great impression on me (although I forget which one of the Prophets said it; I think it was President Ezra Taft Benson: "The day obedience becomes a quest and not an irritation ("Don't grumble, Ken!" ) is the day we gain power." I do these things because (1) they fill my soul, even if I do sometimes grumble a bit beforehand about doing them ; and (2) because, when it comes right down to it, the Lord has given me everything I have, save one thing: He's given me my family, my health, my home, my possessions, et cetera, ad infinitum. The only thing I have left to give to Him that He didn't give me in the first place is My Will.

[Robert F. Smith]

this articles shows an example using wells fargo to to an electronics funds transfer.

I will start using it but I want to know anyone's thoughts/ideas/experiences.

http://ldsmobile.net...e-with-billpay/

When I was a ward financial clerk, I would see such payments automatically recorded, but didn't have to do anything with them. Just another automatic bill pay -- and one can also use it for a missionary in the field, at $400 per month, just like clockwork.

[Robert F. Smith]

.......................... one can make a show of paying tithing by handing an envelope containing some token amount (an amount not representing a full tithe) to a member of the Bishopric every month, lie to one's Bishop and Stake President to obtain a Temple Recommend, and skip tithing settlement every year (or even, if one has the temerity, attend tithing settlement every year and lie through one's teeth that the $100 [or whatever the token amounts in those envelopes handed to the Bishop add up to] represent a full tithe for Brother Cheatham, partner in the Law Firm of Meetem, Cheatham, Beatem, and Run). There's no need for one to go to the great lengths of taking advantage of an obscure, apparently little-used procedure in order to do that.

........................................

With automatic payments, tithing settlement, etc., goes forward as usual with the same results. Each member is given a list of his total contributions for the year, corrects it if necessary, speaks privately with the bishop, etc. There is no change in that function. Basically, it is between you and the Lord.