Sydney Rigdon

[CASteinman]

Also I did some research of Sidney and how he ran his church and his doctrines, and I must say he would have been a great leader, since we do now what he had his church do then, like no polygamy and all worthy men can hold the priesthood.

You may have liked his sweet sounding doctrines that gently tickle your ear but he was not a great leader. He was a crank and was thought to be a crank at the time. This is a key reason that the voice of the people rejected him. He was not a good leader.

[CASteinman]

So repentance, baptism, and bearing a testimony to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon all your life (even to your last breath) doesn't necessarily guarantee anything?

It might. But... we are not the Judge of such things in other people. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[bdouglas]

You may have liked his sweet sounding doctrines that gently tickle your ear but he was not a great leader. He was a crank and was thought to be a crank at the time. This is a key reason that the voice of the people rejected him. He was not a good leader.

A "crank"? That is a very uncharitable thing to say. The church today owes a lot to Sidney Rigdon. When Oliver Cowdery et al went out on their mission to the Lamanites, they encountered Sidney Rigdon, and Rigdon converted--and brought with him several of the notable personalities of the Restoration, including Parley P. Pratt. When you have done as much yourself, and also been brutally beaten for your testimony of the Restoration, and then dragged naked by your feet behind a horse over the frozen ground in the dead of winter, suffering life-changing injuries; when you have experienced and witnessed along with Joseph Smith the vision that is today sec. 76 of the D&C...well, after you have done all of this, then you can call Sidney Rigdon a crank, if you wish.

Edited April 25, 2013 by bdouglas

[Avatar4321]

A "crank"? That is a very uncharitable thing to say. The church today owes a lot to Sidney Rigdon. When Oliver Cowdery et al went out on their mission to the Lamanites, they encountered Sidney Rigdon, and Rigdon converted--and brought with him several of the notable personalities of the Restoration, including Parley P. Pratt. When you have done as much yourself, and also been brutally beaten for your testimony of the Restoration, and then dragged naked behind a horse over the frozen ground in the dead of winter, suffering life-changing injuries; when you have experienced and witnessed along with Joseph Smith the vision that is today sec. 76 of the D&C...well, after you have done all of this, then you can call Sidney Rigdon a crank, if you wish.

Im pretty sure it was the other way around. Parley P Pratt brought Sidney Rigdon with him.

[bdouglas]

Im pretty sure it was the other way around. Parley P Pratt brought Sidney Rigdon with him.

Perhaps. But whatever the case, Sidney Rigdon brought his congregation with him, many of whom ultimately converted.

[CASteinman]

after you have done all of this, then you can call Sidney Rigdon a crank, if you wish.

I can actually call him a crank now as well. Because he was. Even if it bugs you, he was. People who knew him spoke of him as having an inconsistent mind and of living in a waking dream state.

I am aware of this great contributions. Take a look at post #4.

[inquiringmind]

...The doctrine of the gathering has been rescinded in our time. So, can we just declare that these people disobeyed one doctrine (the gathering) but obeyed the rest of the Gospel?

What was "the doctrine of the gathering"?

Was going west when BY led the saints to Utah mandatory or optional?

Weren't there branches and stakes in eastern states like Pennsylvania and New York?

Were they suppose to go west too?

Was anybody who stayed behind disobedient?

[Glenn101]

I disagree. He could no more have been the next President than I could have if I lived then. The Lord gave power to the Twelve to be equal in authority to the First Presidency. At the First Presidency disolved at the death of Joseph, the Twelve were authorized body to govern the Church with Brigham as President of the Twelve. Sydney was never given any keys to do so.

The body of the Church couldnt determine that Sydney would be their leader without turning to apostasy because that's not what the Lord's plan was. It's the Lord who determines who is the Presiding High Priest of the Church.

I agree and I disagree. I agree that it is the Lord who determines who is the presidung high priest of the church. I agree that when Joseph Smith was killed, the first presidency was dissolved.

But, at the time of Joseph's death, the question of succession was in embryo. There was nothing written to tell the church just how to proceed. Sidney felt that as the senior member of the first presidency, he should be the next in line to become the president and prophet. Although Rigdon was never a member of the quorum of the twelve, as a member of the first presidency he was an apostle.

Even though Brigham was chosen by the members of the Quorum of the twelve who were present, he still would have not become president if he had been rejected by the membership of the church. If I recall correctly, Joseph Smith tried to have Sidney released from the first presidency at one time because Sidney had moved back east, but the membership would not sustain him in it.

If the membership of the church had rejected Brigham and sustained Sidney, Sidney would have become the next prophet, seer, and revelator. But he did not believe that anyone could be a prohet after Joseph and the membership rejected that and accepted Brigham Young. And I believe that the membership of the church was following the will of the Lord.

Glenn

[CASteinman]

I agree and I disagree. I agree that it is the Lord who determines who is the presidung high priest of the church. I agree that when Joseph Smith was killed, the first presidency was dissolved.

But, at the time of Joseph's death, the question of succession was in embryo. There was nothing written to tell the church just how to proceed. Sidney felt that as the senior member of the first presidency, he should be the next in line to become the president and prophet. Although Rigdon was never a member of the quorum of the twelve, as a member of the first presidency he was an apostle.

Even though Brigham was chosen by the members of the Quorum of the twelve who were present, he still would have not become president if he had been rejected by the membership of the church. If I recall correctly, Joseph Smith tried to have Sidney released from the first presidency at one time because Sidney had moved back east, but the membership would not sustain him in it.

If the membership of the church had rejected Brigham and sustained Sidney, Sidney would have become the next prophet, seer, and revelator. But he did not believe that anyone could be a prohet after Joseph and the membership rejected that and accepted Brigham Young. And I believe that the membership of the church was following the will of the Lord.

Glenn

Sidney Rigdon was never ordained an apostle and was never sustained as an apostle. Being a member of the First Presidency has not always been equal to being an apostle and even in modern times, it did not necessarily make one a member of the quorum of apostles.

Joseph Smith tried to have Sidney Rigdon removed because Sidney was a bit unstable and was "less active".

[Glenn101]

Sidney Rigdon was never ordained an apostle and was never sustained as an apostle. Being a member of the First Presidency has not always been equal to being an apostle and even in modern times, it did not necessarily make one a member of the quorum of apostles.

I don't know what were the words used when setting Sidney Rigdon apart as the first counselor in the first presidency. I do agree that he was never a mamber of the Quorum of the twelve apostles. Paul claimed apostleship for himself, but there is no record of him being set apart as an apostle. But we do not know what words were used to set him apart either.

We do know that the Lord said "And again, verily I say unto thy brethren, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams, their sins are forgiven them also, and they are accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom;" (Doctrine and Covenants 90:6)

All I am saying right now is that it was not established at the time how a succeeding president was to be called and that there were no set of qualifications. At that controversial meeting when Brigham asked for a vote on Sidney's claim, if the voice of the people had called for Sidney, he would have become the next president, and a different precedent would have been established. But that did not happen.

Glenn

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I was just reading about the testimonies of Sydney Rigdon and his wife here.

http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/2000s/2000JLS1.htm

I'm sure they were both baptized, and they seem to have retained a testimony to the BOM all their lives, but didn't they die outside the Church?

If the Church is true, where would that put them as far as God is concerned?

Did they "endure to the end"?

After he failed to become leader of the Church after Joseph's death, I guess he felt the need to move on.

[Doctrine 612]

Sidney Rigdon was never ordained an apostle and was never sustained as an apostle. Being a member of the First Presidency has not always been equal to being an apostle and even in modern times, it did not necessarily make one a member of the quorum of apostles.

Joseph Smith tried to have Sidney Rigdon removed because Sidney was a bit unstable and was "less active".

That is true Sidney was not an apostle even the church almanac shows that he is not an apostle.

[why me]

After he failed to become leader of the Church after Joseph's death, I guess he felt the need to move on.

But he didn't move on. The book of mormon experience and his mormon experience were always with him. It didn't matter where he was in his personal life, he couldn't move on emotionally or mentally. His deathbed testimony is proof of that.

[Gervin]

I always liked this quote by SR:

"It was the imperative duty of the Church to obey the word of Joseph Smith, or the presidency, without question or inquiry, and that if there were any that would not, they should have their throats cut from ear [to] ear."

Letter to Apostle Orson Hyde, October 21, 1844, in Nauvoo Neighbor, December 4, 1844

[Questing Beast]

Rigdon was not right in the head after the mobbing, Joseph Smith saw Rigdon lying off to one side unconscious and he wondered at the time if he was dead. Rigdon's head swelled up and he raved for hour/days after that night. Afterward, on several/many occasions, when Rigdon waxed excessive against the "gentiles" and the "mob" (his "salt sermon" being a perfect example of how polemical he could get), those close to Joseph Smith advised him to get rid of Rigdon, i.e. replace him with somebody more reliable, but Joseph Smith would not consider it: to him, Sydney Rigdon had gone through hell with him and he would not cast him off for the aftereffects of that martyrdom. Rigdon had shown himself willing to give his life for the gospel of Christ and that was what weighed with Joseph Smith, not weaknesses of the flesh brought about by that mobbing.

After the LDS main church left for the wilderness, and being associated with polygamy, it was completely understandable that Rigdon, William Smith, et al. the members who did not side with B. Young's church, to try their best to live religious lives according to the Spirit. As far as I know, none of the main characters in the Smith family and their associates became apostates to Joseph Smith's memory or his work. They all had huge issues with the way things had fallen out (apart), and did their several bests to overcome that chaos. I think that Rigdon was an honest man to the end of his days.

God loves honesty above all other virtues, because the honest soul recognizes the truth about God. The implications of early Mormon history, to me, are that God doesn't much care which "church" a person adheres to, so long as s/he follows the integrity of their heart. None of us knows very much, and we feel a great deal. We must follow our feelings first, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, for feelings are what we sin against if we choose otherwise. No amount of justification will save us if we try to excuse our actions which went against our "gut". You must follow with your gut. That's all you have to connect you to inner peace.

And that's what Ridgon did, along with quite a few others. To impugn their motives as "apostate", as B. Young, et al. the GAs of the main church did for the rest of their lives, is not charitable or accurate according to the evidence of the lives of those who did not go out to Utah territory....

(edit to add: I know of Joseph Smith's later trying to have Sydney replaced, and of many people friendly to Sydney talking him out of it. None of that speaks of Joseph Smith's attitude toward Rigdon as a fellow martyr, he was just being realistic and noticing the trouble that Rigdon caused by his polemics in the midst of their enemies.)

Edited April 26, 2013 by Questing Beast

[CASteinman]

(edit to add: I know of Joseph Smith's later trying to have Sydney replaced, and of many people friendly to Sydney talking him out of it. None of that speaks of Joseph Smith's attitude toward Rigdon as a fellow martyr, he was just being realistic and noticing the trouble that Rigdon caused by his polemics in the midst of their enemies.)

Things are not quite so good as you put it. Rigdon counted himself as greater than any man alive and sometimes thought he had suffered more than Jesus. He was not simply polemic, he was inactive a great deal of the time. He ran around in a fog and he was apostate -- having openly supported the 12 at the conference but behind their backs undermining their efforts. And Brigham Young was charitable toward Rigdon, but also had a responsibility.

[Questing Beast]

Brigham Young could be verbally judgmental and cruel toward those who did not follow him, so none of this is simply one-sided. Yes, Rigdon was mercurial, unreliable and dangerous even, whipping up the mob by giving it ammunition to use against the Saints and Joseph Smith, which is the reason why he tried to have Rigdon replaced, i.e. removed from a leadership position so that his words would not bear the stamp of authoritative statement of church policy, etc. His inactivity was caused, in Joseph Smith's view (so far as I can tell) by his head injury, and so were his other inconsistency faults. The point is that Joseph Smith never indicated that Rigdon was out of favor with the Lord, and he exercised understanding for his faults, knowing very well what their likely cause was....

[cinepro]

I was kind of hoping we'd get a year of "Teachings of The First Presidency of the Church: Sidney Rigdon" after we've finished studying all the prophets in EQ/HP/RS. But after reading this thread, I don't think that's going to happen

[Whiskeypete]

When I think of Sidney Rigdon, it reminds me of the parable of the Olive Trees in Jacob 5. The Church was just a tiny seedling, as it were, in November 1830, and Sidney had a fairly sizable congregation. The Church was in a sense grafted onto Rigdons church - even moving to Kirtland. But as the church strengthened over the years, more and more the leadership was shifted to others who were not originally part of Rigdons congregation. Notable exceptions being the Pratts - Parley and Orson.

Eventually, the Church was able to stand on its own

I would love to research someday which of the early chuch members were the disciples of Sidney Rigdon and how many of them stayed with the church as it moved west, vs how many left the church. I get the feeling, but don't have the facts yet, that very few of the original Rigdon congregation stayed faithful.

[CASteinman]

When I think of Sidney Rigdon, it reminds me of the parable of the Olive Trees in Jacob 5. The Church was just a tiny seedling, as it were, in November 1830, and Sidney had a fairly sizable congregation. The Church was in a sense grafted onto Rigdons church - even moving to Kirtland. But as the church strengthened over the years, more and more the leadership was shifted to others who were not originally part of Rigdons congregation. Notable exceptions being the Pratts - Parley and Orson.

Eventually, the Church was able to stand on its own

I would love to research someday which of the early chuch members were the disciples of Sidney Rigdon and how many of them stayed with the church as it moved west, vs how many left the church. I get the feeling, but don't have the facts yet, that very few of the original Rigdon congregation stayed faithful.

Gave you a bump for this because it is an unusual insight and I feel like I learned something.

[CASteinman]

Brigham Young could be verbally judgmental and cruel toward those who did not follow him, so none of this is simply one-sided. Y

You know.. everyone sees things differently. Written words don't necessarily come across as they are said. I think Brigham Young was like that. A few years back I was reading a great deal of the Talks by Brigham Young in the JoD. Don't know what I was up to, I just decided I wanted to read a lot of his talks for a while.

Then one day I picked up the Ensign. The message was by Gordon B. Hinkley. As I read it, I was amazed. He "sounded" just like Brigham Young. His words were really blunt and forward. But when I imagine the way President Hinkley would say it, it somehow did not seem as "bad".

When I returned to reading Brigham Young, I tried to hear the words as if President Hinkley were saying them. It was sometimes not so easy but most of the time it fit well.

This gave me a whole different appreciation for both President Hinkley and President Young.

[why me]

What I do know is that if Sidney wrote the book of mormon, he would have spoken up, provided proof, and watched the church fall like a house of cards. By Sidney remaining silent, we have 'silent' proof that he did not write the book of mormon. We also have his own statement on his deathbed to his family. Of course, some may claim that he had much to lose by speaking up but it seems that he lost much by his membership and in his falling out with Joseph Smith.

[Jaynee Doe]

I was just reading about the testimonies of Sydney Rigdon and his wife here.

. . . .

I'm sure they were both baptized, and they seem to have retained a testimony to the BOM all their lives, but didn't they die outside the Church?

Following Joseph's murder, a number of men claimed God had told each of them he was the one personally chosen to replace Joseph as president and prophet of the one true church. Their genuine beliefs resulted in a number of schisms of the church Joseph had established.

Sidney was one of these men, and when his bid to replace Joseph was rejected by the Saints, he went back to Pennsylvania and presided, as president and prophet, over an already existing group of Saints. This group, which believed Joseph was, indeed, a prophet who had established God's true church on earth, practiced the gospel under Rigdon's leadership almost identical to how Joseph had practiced it, with the huge exception of polygamy. It became a schism when it disavowed polygamy and changed its name to disassociate itself from the other Mormon groups, particularly the "Brighamites," whose practice of polygamy was firm evidence that Brigham was under the control of Satan. I don't recall what the schism's new name was, but it exists today as "The Church of Jesus Christ" (TJOJC), and has grown to become the third largest LDS Restorationist Church.

So, Sidney and Phoebe Rigdon died outside the schism led by Brigham Young; however, they died within the schism led by Rigdon, a schism that believed it was, literally, a continuation of the one and true church Joseph had established, and that firmly believed Mormons who chose to go to a different schism, including that of the "Brighamites," were the true apostates.

Did they “endure to the end”?

As far as members of TCOJC are concerned, yes, they did. Otherwise, I have no idea.

[Jaynee Doe]

I remember visiting some history sites near Palmyra and one room was devoted to showing the beginnings of Mormonism chronologically with photos and art. I kept looking for something on SR. It was as if he never existed. I asked the missionary sister and she didn't know why or really much about him.

As far as I recall, Rigdon was never in Palmyra. (Does anyone know otherwise? If so, please feel free to correct me.) Is it possible the artwork only portrayed the Church's pre-Ohio history?

[Tacenda]

As far as I recall, Rigdon was never in Palmyra. (Does anyone know otherwise? If so, please feel free to correct me.) Is it possible the artwork only portrayed the Church's pre-Ohio history?

Well it was the visitors center that looks like a white church adjacent to the Peter Whitmer farm if that helps. Maybe someone on here might remember that.