canard78 Posted April 27, 2013 Posted April 27, 2013 This quote seem like a anti quote, I may be wrong, but I don't think SR ever went to Utah, also SR was never an apostle so could not be the next leader of the church, even before the policy change of March 31, 1900 on who becomes the next president of the church.An anti quote? Rigdon and his wife both affirming to their dying day that they first received the BoM at the hands of PPP and never saw it before that day and attesting that "mormonism is true." It's not a very strong anti-quote is it?
Gervin Posted April 27, 2013 Posted April 27, 2013 An anti quote? Rigdon and his wife both affirming to their dying day that they first received the BoM at the hands of PPP and never saw it before that day and attesting that "mormonism is true." It's not a very strong anti-quote is it?I think the quote in the OP sounds incredibly contrived. And how, exactly, would the Mrs. "know" that SR was seeing the book for the first time? Because that's what he told her, most likely.
Jersey Girl Posted April 27, 2013 Posted April 27, 2013 I think that sidney's going astray did not have much to do with Nancy. I think that it may have been due to polygamy or just his own human nature to go in a different direction after he was mugged, dragged through the streets, and suffered physical and emotional damage.Amazingly, if sidney wrote the book of mormon, he certainly would have come clean after this episode.Admittedly, this topic hasn't been in my head for some years now, but I want to challenge your assertion that if Sidney Rigdon had written the book of Mormon, he'd have "come clean" after being abused. Why do you think that? Do you think the Book of Mormon was irrelevant to his creating the Rigdonites? Don't you think that he needed the Book of Mormon in order to do so?
ERayR Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 I think the quote in the OP sounds incredibly contrived. And how, exactly, would the Mrs. "know" that SR was seeing the book for the first time? Because that's what he told her, most likely.Perhaps Sydney was not in the habit of lying to his wife so she trusted him. Seriously being his wife she would have known when the Book of Mormon came into their possession.
ERayR Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 Admittedly, this topic hasn't been in my head for some years now, but I want to challenge your assertion that if Sidney Rigdon had written the book of Mormon, he'd have "come clean" after being abused. Why do you think that? Do you think the Book of Mormon was irrelevant to his creating the Rigdonites? Don't you think that he needed the Book of Mormon in order to do so?Nope.
Jersey Girl Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) Nope.Was I talking to you?Sorry! I couldn't resist! Why do you think that the Book of Mormon wasn't relevant to Rigdon's religious future? Edited April 28, 2013 by Jersey Girl
ERayR Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 Was I talking to you?Sorry! I couldn't resist! Why do you think that the Book of Mormon wasn't relevant to Rigdon's religious future?As has been pointed out he was a successful preacher before he joined the church. He was also a polished orator and from what I read could hold a congregations interest for literally hours.
Avatar4321 Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 Following Joseph's murder, a number of men claimed God had told each of them he was the one personally chosen to replace Joseph as president and prophet of the one true church. Their genuine beliefs resulted in a number of schisms of the church Joseph had established. Sidney was one of these men, and when his bid to replace Joseph was rejected by the Saints, he went back to Pennsylvania and presided, as president and prophet, over an already existing group of Saints. This group, which believed Joseph was, indeed, a prophet who had established God's true church on earth, practiced the gospel under Rigdon's leadership almost identical to how Joseph had practiced it, with the huge exception of polygamy. It became a schism when it disavowed polygamy and changed its name to disassociate itself from the other Mormon groups, particularly the "Brighamites," whose practice of polygamy was firm evidence that Brigham was under the control of Satan. I don't recall what the schism's new name was, but it exists today as "The Church of Jesus Christ" (TJOJC), and has grown to become the third largest LDS Restorationist Church.So, Sidney and Phoebe Rigdon died outside the schism led by Brigham Young; however, they died within the schism led by Rigdon, a schism that believed it was, literally, a continuation of the one and true church Joseph had established, and that firmly believed Mormons who chose to go to a different schism, including that of the "Brighamites," were the true apostates.As far as members of TCOJC are concerned, yes, they did. Otherwise, I have no idea.Oh so how many Temples did they build?
Jaynee Doe Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 Oh so how many Temples did they build?I don't understand your question. Are you asking how many temples has The Church of Jesus Christ (Rigdonites) built? If not, would you please clarify your question?If that is what you're asking, then the answer is, as far as I know, none. What does that have to do with what I wrote about SR?
Questing Beast Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 Didn't Rigdon's people build a "temple" that burned down just before dedication? Where did I read that? After the "temple" burned he stopped trying to construct his own branch of Mormonism and fell back into preacher mode without aggrandizing himself. That is probably an incomplete, inaccurate memory on my part. Somebody else can correct me....
why me Posted April 28, 2013 Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) Admittedly, this topic hasn't been in my head for some years now, but I want to challenge your assertion that if Sidney Rigdon had written the book of Mormon, he'd have "come clean" after being abused. Why do you think that? Do you think the Book of Mormon was irrelevant to his creating the Rigdonites? Don't you think that he needed the Book of Mormon in order to do so?We would need to put ourselves in sidney's place. He writes a book....has Joseph Smith take credit for it not through authorship but through divine visitation. Joseph takes the lead and sidney is in the background. Joseph then lets power get to his head and he begins polygamy. Sidney, if he wrote the book of mormon, would have considered this a gross violation of trust and of the devil. Joseph also hits on his daughter. What does sidney do? Nothing. He continues to be in the background and allows Joseph to grossly sin.Would this be possible if sidney actually wrote the book? He would just go away and allow joseph to do what he is doing and to take credit for something that he, sidney, had done. And then allow Brigham to take the reins and head out west? And remain silent. Sidney would need to be a sociopath. Edited April 28, 2013 by why me
Tacenda Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) We would need to put ourselves in sidney's place. He writes a book....has Joseph Smith take credit for it not through authorship but through divine visitation. Joseph takes the lead and sidney is in the background. Joseph then lets power get to his head and he begins polygamy. Sidney, if he wrote the book of mormon, would have considered this a gross violation of trust and of the devil. Joseph also hits on his daughter. What does sidney do? Nothing. He continues to be in the background and allows Joseph to grossly sin.Would this be possible if sidney actually wrote the book? He would just go away and allow joseph to do what he is doing and to take credit for something that he, sidney, had done. And then allow Brigham to take the reins and head out west? And remain silent. Sidney would need to be a sociopath.He either really believed Christianity was doomed and it needed restoring and gave up all credit for the cause or Joseph Smith wrote the BoM borrowing from several sources or the BoM is an actual event. Edited April 29, 2013 by Tacenda
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 But he didn't move on. The book of mormon experience and his mormon experience were always with him. It didn't matter where he was in his personal life, he couldn't move on emotionally or mentally. His deathbed testimony is proof of that.BOM yes, but did he know leave the Church and no go West?
why me Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) He either really believed Christianity was doomed and it needed restoring and gave up all credit for the cause or Joseph Smith wrote the BoM borrowing from several sources or the BoM is an actual event.If he spent time writing a book, he must have thought of the idea of the restoration complete with visitations. He would be the guy in charge of the whole operation. He would be the man behind Joseph Smith. I don't think that he would have remained silent when he realized that he was being marginalized. Also, Sidney on his deathbed restated that he did not write the book to his son and then off to his maker he went. If he wrote the book, he would be sociopath first class.Also, if he did write the book, I just can't see him telling Joseph to stick his head in a hat. Edited April 29, 2013 by why me
canard78 Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 If he spent time writing a book, he must have thought of the idea of the restoration complete with visitations. He would be the guy in charge of the whole operation. He would be the man behind Joseph Smith. I don't think that he would have remained silent when he realized that he was being marginalized. Also, Sidney on his deathbed restated that he did not write the book to his son and then off to his maker he went. If he wrote the book, he would be sociopath first class.Also, if he did write the book, I just can't see him telling Joseph to stick his head in a hat. I think the notion that Rigdon wrote it is a crazy stretch of the imagination. But... Just to the last part... Joseph had been sticking his head in a hat before the translation started when he was looking for treasure. So he wouldn't have needed a Rigdon suggestion to start using it.
Gervin Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 I think the notion that Rigdon wrote it is a crazy stretch of the imagination.Is it a crazy stretch of the imagination to entertain the notion that he had some involvement in the book's coming forth?
ERayR Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Is it a crazy stretch of the imagination to entertain the notion that he had some involvement in the book's coming forth?Yes. It is crazy. Edited April 29, 2013 by ERayR
Glenn101 Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 ]why?Because Sidney did not meet Joseph until after the Book of Mormon was published.Glenn
Nevo Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Is it a crazy stretch of the imagination to entertain the notion that he had some involvement in the book's coming forth?I don't think it's crazy to entertain the notion given the considerable overlap between the Book of Mormon's teachings and Sidney Rigdon's pre-1830 beliefs (see here, for example). But the historical evidence doesn't support Rigdon's involvement. Edited April 29, 2013 by Nevo 1
Gervin Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 Because Sidney did not meet Joseph until after the Book of Mormon was published.GlennAs I understand, there were several people who reported seeing Rigdon at or near Joseph Smith's home before the Book of Mormon was published. So, I don't think it's crazy to leave open the possibility that they did indeed meet beforehand.
why me Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 As I understand, there were several people who reported seeing Rigdon at or near Joseph Smith's home before the Book of Mormon was published. So, I don't think it's crazy to leave open the possibility that they did indeed meet beforehand.I think that these people said this in order to try to undermine the book of mormon. However, it is difficult to verify if these people were telling the truth or trying to undermine Joseph. It would be much better to hear it from the horses' mouths. But we do not have this. But then again, I am sure that Joseph heard of sidney since he was a famous preacher.
CASteinman Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 As I understand, there were several people who reported seeing Rigdon at or near Joseph Smith's home before the Book of Mormon was published. I suspect this is no one credible.Anyone proposing the theory that this is Rigdon's work would have to explain why he would give it to Joseph Smith in the first place, why he would later play along with Joseph Smith as Joseph Started a Church, but why he was NOT part of the Church organization from the start, and why he continued to play along all the way to his death, even after he was no longer associated with the Church and Joseph was dead.That's where the big stretch actually lies.
CASteinman Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 Is it a crazy stretch of the imagination to entertain the notion that he had some involvement in the book's coming forth?Perhaps not literally a matter of mental illness. But it is a silly idea.
teddyaware Posted April 29, 2013 Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Perhaps not literally a matter of mental illness. But it is a silly idea.It's interesting some LDS critics push hard on the "Rigdon Theory" for a way to explain the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. I say interesting, because in doing so they seem to acknowledge young, semi-literate Joseph Smith couldn't possibly have produced it on his own without some major outside help. They unwittigly confirm to the faithful that the coming forth of the Nephite record was modern miracle. Edited April 29, 2013 by teddyaware
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