General Conference, Elder Bednar'S Message

[EllenMaksoud]

Please accept that I have questions but am not in any way rebellious, or trying to sew the seeds of discontent. I just have questions.

So, I fully accept that Marriage is for procreation and between a man and a woman. This is not a popular statement, especially in California and the Portland area, so I suppose to follow Heavenly Father's guide, we must agree to be not popular.

This in no way addresses gays or lesbians, but I have personal knowlege of gay LDS men who have married women. I think the importance of sexual attraction is way overblown by those of "The Agenda".

From a purely scientific point of view, what then happens to those who are Inter-sexed? Lots of us appear as women, but can not ever get pregnant, some having been born without even having a womb. Some can blithely, and without feeling, just say, um well they can adopt. Some of these ladies are what are called XY females and look more feminine than many women. And, yes there are XX males born but I have had little personal experience with that.

Thankfully, over 9/10 of babies are born are either XX or XY, so those of us who are not are generally left to just figure it out. I felt utterly damned for most of my life. Even now there are certain people who ... Thankfully, the people in my Ward are utterly loving, supportive and seem to be blindly in love with me.

I just wonder where the next 20 years will put the Inter-sexed? The church's stand of firmly not supporting SSM is the correct one, in my mind. I just pray that eventually people like me can eventually firmly be assigned a place in the church that will fully support them.

Inter-sexed folk often look off putting, and sometimes have other challenges besides appearance. It should come as no surprise that look different often face lives that are devoid of friendship and affection. Some are assumed to be gay or lesbian. Did you know that some of them don't have any sexual drives at all? Just because of inability to reproduce and no sexual drives, please do not assume that these folk would not enjoy being held and cuddled. And, how could anyone possibly get the idea that sin in their lives somehow sealed their fates.

Edited April 6, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Shanky82]

How do you not have a place? I don't mean to be insensitive or anything. I'm just wondering. Also, because I don't know anything about the subject, what is inter-sexed?

Surely there is a place for you in the Lord's kingdom. The same thing can be asked about hermaphrodites. Where's their place in the Church?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Shanky82

[Duncan]

I honestly didn't care much for Elder Bednar's talk! it just came across as extreme to me. if you are feeling guilty about various sins or transgressions, I didn't see much mercy or a reason to change your life, you ether drop out or just become apathetic and attend anyways. he seemed to advocate don't have...in your married life unless it's for procreation -that's my knee jerk reaction anyways

Edited April 6, 2013 by Duncan

[Shanky82]

I honestly didn't care much for Elder Bednar's talk! it just came across as extreme to me. if you are feeling guilty about various sins or transgressions, I didn't see much mercy or a reason to change your life, you ether drop out or just become apathetic and attend anyways. he seemed to advocate don't have...in your married life unless it's for procreation -that's my knee jerk reaction anyways

How was his talk extreme?

[Bikeemikey]

I honestly didn't care much for Elder Bednar's talk! it just came across as extreme to me. if you are feeling guilty about various sins or transgressions, I didn't see much mercy or a reason to change your life, you ether drop out or just become apathetic and attend anyways. he seemed to advocate don't have...in your married life unless it's for procreation -that's my knee jerk reaction anyways

Im listening to it a second time.

I think I liked it more the second time.

1. I think I would have appreciated it more if instead of talking about marriage as a single generic term that represents all of the wonderful things he stated he referred specifically to the LDS covenant of marriage. Most marriages do are not entered into with the intention he proscribed, outside a narrow religious community which includes most Mormons that is.

2. I do not think LDS theology is as dualistic (spirit inherently good, body inherently bad) and simple as the talk presented. 1/3 of the host of heaven decided to go with Lucifer in the pre-earth life... they made this decision (committed this sin) with no body. I am of the opinion that the natural man is a phrase that is not flesh specific but instead grounded in the notion of opposition to God. I am also of the opinion that most of this opposition (pride) is grounded in our spirit, not our body.

Having said that, I think his talk was overly simplistic (perhaps necessarily so), but I really like that the talk was placing the concept of LDS chastity in a broader theological construct. Being more effective with this style of conversation is going to be important if we are going to be able to articulate our current religious perspective on homosexuality without it becoming about politics and rights.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Duncan]

How was his talk extreme?

i'd have to listen to it again, but if I was struggling with something or did something I either quit the Church or just say nothing and become apathetic. It seemed very heavy handed and left no room for mercy besides of which it gave me the impression that intercourse was only for procreation and any time you didn't do it for procreation you were giving into the natural man, which is dumb

[CASteinman]

Please accept that I have questions but am not in any way rebellious, or trying to sew the seeds of discontent. I just have questions.

You actually raise some VERY good questions. This is my opinion: This board is not the place for those answers. I think you should discuss this with your Bishop and maybe Stake President.

If, instead of an authoritative answer, you want an opinion, please contact me.

[Bikeemikey]

You actually raise some VERY good questions. This is my opinion: This board is not the place for those answers. I think you should discuss this with your Bishop and maybe Stake President.

If, instead of an authoritative answer, you want an opinion, please contact me.

The place to find the answers and the place to refine the questions are often not the same.

I find this board very helpful in refining the questions I have... Not so helpful in getting the answers.

[Duncan]

In our upside-down world, where it is more important not to offend or hurt people sensitive feelings than it is to guard the welfare of their souls (physically and spiritually), statements that don't pander to sin will be viewed as extreme.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

oooOOOOOOOOoooooo! I see how it is!

[Saints Alive]

oooOOOOOOOOoooooo! I see how it is!

I always knew you were a sin sympathizer Duncan! Lol

[Duncan]

I always knew you were a sin sympathizer Duncan! Lol

so totally, I eat sin for breakfast!

[rpn]

Ellen, God knows what your gender is. And in the resurrection your body will be perfect. Things may be awkward on earth, but they weren't in the pre-existence, and they won't be in the eternities. Hang in there.

[Bikeemikey]

Ellen, God knows what your gender is. And in the resurrection your body will be perfect. Things may be awkward on earth, but they weren't in the pre-existence, and they won't be in the eternities. Hang in there.

Things were awkward enough in the pre-earth life for a third of the host of heaven to walk off the job... I would say that is pretty darn awkward. At some point we will have our bodies perfected through the resurrection... that is not how things were before we came to earth though.

[CASteinman]

I honestly didn't care much for Elder Bednar's talk! it just came across as extreme to me. if you are feeling guilty about various sins or transgressions, I didn't see much mercy or a reason to change your life, you ether drop out or just become apathetic and attend anyways. he seemed to advocate don't have...in your married life unless it's for procreation -that's my knee jerk reaction anyways

You seriously misheard him.

[Rivers]

I honestly didn't care much for Elder Bednar's talk! it just came across as extreme to me. if you are feeling guilty about various sins or transgressions, I didn't see much mercy or a reason to change your life, you ether drop out or just become apathetic and attend anyways. he seemed to advocate don't have...in your married life unless it's for procreation -that's my knee jerk reaction anyways

I actually like talks that are extreme. They are much less boring to listen to than most other talks. The extreme ones stick out in my mind a lot more. He brought up a lot of points in the talk that are worth discussing.

He makes a good point when he spoke of how sexuality is the power to create life.

I think the most liberal of people should be able to acknowledge that the power to bring new life into the world is not something that should be taken lightly.

I also liked the part where he discussed the ways in which male and female complete one another. It's about more than just procreation. Males and females each have unique qualities and charactaristics. The two genders fill gaps for each other.

I think that this point adds more depth to our theology than ceslestial sex and eternal pregnancies.

I thought he did a great job at articulating the church's case for the Law of Chastity.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Rivers

[Duncan]

You seriously misheard him.

possibly but I have no interest in hearing it again! haha!

[ERMD]

i'd have to listen to it again, but if I was struggling with something or did something I either quit the Church or just say nothing and become apathetic. It seemed very heavy handed and left no room for mercy besides of which it gave me the impression that intercourse was only for procreation and any time you didn't do it for procreation you were giving into the natural man, which is dumb

I have a family member who has been excommunicated and is working his way back. He said he loved Elder Bednar's talk, and it gave him hope and motivation.

[Duncan]

I have a family member who has been excommunicated and is working his way back. He said he loved Elder Bednar's talk, and it gave him hope and motivation.

that's great, hopefully everything works out! it wouldn't give me, personally, any hope, but I would look to other talks I have heard

Edited April 7, 2013 by Duncan

[Gillebre]

I LOVED Elder Bednar's talk! That man is a freakin rock-star. lol

Hands-down the best talk of the session, I think. Him and Elder Packer were GREAT.

Loved it. Loved it.

Take my tithing! just kidding..

[Calm]

The place to find the answers and the place to refine the questions are often not the same.

I find this board very helpful in refining the questions I have... Not so helpful in getting the answers.

Very good point.

[Freedom]

There are always exceptions to the rule. God says we should go to the temple, but for some people with mental illness or other certain disabilities, the temple is not the place for them. God says we should be married, but for some this is simply not an option. Either because of emotional or physical challenges. Physiological gender confusions are one of thousands of physical abnormalities that occur. Some are born without limbs, some are born without eyes, some are born without critical organs. How these matters are addressed in the church setting are as varied as there are individuals with these challenges.

[Shanky82]

I actually like talks that are extreme. They are much less boring to listen to than most other talks. The extreme ones stick out in my mind a lot more. He brought up a lot of points in the talk that are worth discussing.

He makes a good point when he spoke of how sexuality is the power to create life.

I think the most liberal of people should be able to acknowledge that the power to bring new life into the world is not something that should be taken lightly.

I also liked the part where he discussed the ways in which male and female complete one another. It's about more than just procreation. Males and females each have unique qualities and charactaristics. The two genders fill gaps for each other.

I think that this point adds more depth to our theology than ceslestial sex and eternal pregnancies.

I thought he did a great job at articulating the church's case for the Law of Chastity.

I liked where he said how we use the sacred powers of procreation in this life will shape our destiny in the next.

[canard78]

How do you not have a place? I don't mean to be insensitive or anything. I'm just wondering. Also, because I don't know anything about the subject, what is inter-sexed?

Surely there is a place for you in the Lord's kingdom. The same thing can be asked about hermaphrodites. Where's their place in the Church?

You've heard of Wikipedia I presume

Intersex, in humans, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, and/or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

[telnetd]

Even though Elder Bednar did not implicitly use the term "same sex

relationships" (I don't think I heard it), his talk also involved the other

sexual sins of adultery, fornication, and masturbation. I think he

would have offended many if he had read Romans 1:27.

Gail

[Duncan]

Even though Elder Bednar did not implicitly use the term "same sex

relationships" (I don't think I heard it), his talk also involved the other

sexual sins of adultery, fornication, and masturbation. I think he

would have offended many if he had read Romans 1:27.

Gail

I don't advocate any of those but M* isn't on the same scale as fornication or adultery! some sins are more serious then others and some sins aren't even sins, but transgressions