What Is Truth? - Mr. Uchtdorf Speaks

[theplains]

source: What is Truth? - Uchtdorf in January's CES devotional

Some snips:

"Satan is the great deceiver ... The adversary has many cunning strategies for keeping mortals

from the truth ... For those who already embrace the truth, his primary strategy is to spread

the seeds of doubt. For example, he has caused many members of the Church to stumble

when they discover information about the Church that seems to contradict what they had

learned previously".

Is Mr. Uchtdorf saying that if evangelicals tell Latter-day Saints that Joseph Smith taught that

God was once a man who became a God, they are actually acting like Satan because they are

planting doubts in Mormon people about whether they are worshipping a false God or not?

"In the Book of Mormon, both the Nephites as well as the Lamanites created their own truths

about each other. The Nephites’ truth about the Lamanites was that they were a wild, and

ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, never able to accept the gospel".

I wonder if Mr. Uchtdorf believes that the 'truth' taught by 2 Nephi 5:20-21 and Alma 3:6-7

was also created by the Nephites.

"Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged

to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate,

and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth".

Does this include making vocal statements like "hey, what the church just printed in a manual

is false" to your local bishop?

"We simply don’t know all things—we can’t see everything. What may seem contradictory now

may be perfectly understandable as we search for and receive more trustworthy information.

Because we see through a glass darkly, we have to trust the Lord, who sees all things clearly".

Is this similar to what Jehovah's Witnesses teach? ... that new light comes to correct previously-

given false light? Or does it imply that we can go the grave believing and acting upon false

teachings without consequences in the resurrection?

Thanks,

Jim

[kenporay]

To draw an anology...sometimes atheists will bring up a couple of OT scriptures about a woman who is raped having, by OT law, to marry her rapist.

The new or unlearned christian will be shocked. And will come to agree with the atheist that "this is a terrible religion and it must be false." The thing to do to get right understanding is to learn about the culture, customs, traditions and laws of the people and the times that it was in effect.

Then you either choose to believe with greater knowledge and understanding or you choose to quit believing with greater knowledge and understanding.

To do less would be akin to accepting any statment without investigation. But as a culture westerners are taught "if you memorize what the teacher says then you get a good grade. So just accept it.

[Vanguard]

Some snips:

"Satan is the great deceiver ... The adversary has many cunning strategies for keeping mortals

from the truth ... For those who already embrace the truth, his primary strategy is to spread

the seeds of doubt. For example, he has caused many members of the Church to stumble

when they discover information about the Church that seems to contradict what they had

learned previously".

Is Mr. Uchtdorf saying that if evangelicals tell Latter-day Saints that Joseph Smith taught that

God was once a man who became a God, they are actually acting like Satan because they are

planting doubts in Mormon people about whether they are worshipping a false God or not?

Not necessarily. President Uchtdorf did not say that all doubt comes from Satan but that this was his primary method used for those who already embrace the truth.

Are you suggesting it is not possible for evangelicals to be motivated by Satan?

"In the Book of Mormon, both the Nephites as well as the Lamanites created their own truths

about each other. The Nephites’ truth about the Lamanites was that they were a wild, and

ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, never able to accept the gospel".

I wonder if Mr. Uchtdorf believes that the 'truth' taught by 2 Nephi 5:20-21 and Alma 3:6-7

was also created by the Nephites.

That is actually a great question. What have you concluded and why?

"Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged

to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder' date=' to search, to evaluate, [/i']

and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth".

Does this include making vocal statements like "hey, what the church just printed in a manual

is false" to your local bishop?

Yes, it can and especially when said vocal statement is actually false.

"We simply don’t know all things—we can’t see everything. What may seem contradictory now

may be perfectly understandable as we search for and receive more trustworthy information.

Because we see through a glass darkly, we have to trust the Lord, who sees all things clearly".

Is this similar to what Jehovah's Witnesses teach? ... that new light comes to correct previously-

given false light? Or does it imply that we can go the grave believing and acting upon false

teachings without consequences in the resurrection?

Thanks,

Jim

Any good Latter-Day Saint should believe that what we do know is at least sufficient to keep the the Lord's Gospel alive and well on Earth. Are there beliefs/teachings espoused by our fellow brethren that can be improved upon? Sure and the improvement will continue. No one can see through a glass with entire clarity and so therefore we will all die with at least some "dark" beliefs that will need to be corrected. Will there be consequences in the resurrection as a result? That depends on the beliefs. Don't you think?

Edited March 7, 2013 by Vanguard

[changed]

But as a culture westerners are taught "if you memorize what the teacher says then you get a good grade. So just accept it.

I'd like to think the US is a bit more rebellious than that, seeing how we are a country that was founded on rebellion etc. etc. As a kid I knew I would get a better grade if I wrote what they wanted - but inside I always had my own thoughts... perhaps in Eastern countries authority figures are still revered, but not here... that's the impression I get anyways.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from the talk:

"The Witness of truth from the Holy Ghost is available to all, everywhere, all around the globe. All who seek to know the truth, who study it out in their minds,²⁷ and who “ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, [will know] the truth … by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

That is what it comes down to, and where we find the ultimate truth - is from the Holy Ghost. The entire end of the talk explains how to rely on the Spirit - and for those who don't understand this, the Spirit is real - these are not just poetic words...

Edited March 7, 2013 by changed

[Pahoran]

source: What is Truth? - Uchtdorf in January's CES devotional

Some snips:

"Satan is the great deceiver ... The adversary has many cunning strategies for keeping mortals

from the truth ... For those who already embrace the truth, his primary strategy is to spread

the seeds of doubt. For example, he has caused many members of the Church to stumble

when they discover information about the Church that seems to contradict what they had

learned previously".

Is Mr. Uchtdorf saying that if evangelicals tell Latter-day Saints that Joseph Smith taught that

God was once a man who became a God, they are actually acting like Satan because they are

planting doubts in Mormon people about whether they are worshipping a false God or not?

Interesting question, Jim. I have pondered it.

Among other things, I have pondered the meaning of the word "evangelical." Since the word evangelium means "gospel," the word "evangelical" should mean something like "of or pertaining to the Gospel," shouldn't it?

But here's the thing: if the "gospel" according to "Evangelicals" amounts to nothing more than tabloidesque little shock-jock sound-bites about what Joseph "really" taught, then it's no gospel at all, isn't it?

Face it, Jim: if you and your fellow "Evangelicals" really believed that your interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was superior to ours, you'd abandon your devious little manipulation tactics in a heartbeat, wouldn't you?

Thus, the fact that you cling so desperately to such shabby, disreputable tactics means that you really feel quite insecure about the results of a fair comparison between our beliefs and yours, doesn't it?

You see, Jim, this is what it comes down to: absolutely all honest people of good will, when they discuss the religious beliefs of others, always permit those others to speak for themselves. Those who take it upon themselves to control both sides of the discussion are those who are afraid to let the others speak on their own behalf.

And you know what? You are quite right to be afraid.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Storm Rider]

"Or does it imply that we can go the grave believing and acting upon false teachings without consequences in the resurrection?"

Jim, are you proposing that if an individual believes in a falsehood that it will somehow affect their eternal salvation? Put another way, if a Protestant does not have a correct understanding about the nature of the Trinity, will they be damned in some way? Did Jesus teach that not having a perfect understanding of the gospel was so evil that it destroyed and/or overcame the faith in Christ a disciple maintained? Curious.

[Sleeper Cell]

source: What is Truth? - Uchtdorf in January's CES devotional

"In the Book of Mormon, both the Nephites as well as the Lamanites created their own truths

about each other. The Nephites’ truth about the Lamanites was that they were a wild, and

ferocious, and a blood-thirsty people, never able to accept the gospel".

I wonder if Mr. Uchtdorf believes that the 'truth' taught by 2 Nephi 5:20-21 and Alma 3:6-7

was also created by the Nephites.

It is a pity that in your zeal to prove the Mormons wrong, you completely missed President Uchtdorf’s point, when it is so applicable to interfaith discussions today.

One obvious paraphrase:

In our day, both the Mormons as well as the Evangelicals created their own truth about each other.

Wouldn’t that be a much better starting point for your outreach to Mormons?

As Pahoran pointed out:

all honest people of good will, when they discuss the religious beliefs of others, always permit those others to speak for themselves. Those who take it upon themselves to control both sides of the discussion are those who are afraid to let the others speak on their own behalf.

BTW, when engaged in interfaith dialog, it is customary to use some form of their official religious titles when referring to religious leaders of other faiths. For example, “Pope Benedict,“ not “Mr. Benedict.” Why not say “President Uchtdorf” rather than “Mr. Uchtdorf?” I don’t see how this simple courtesy would compromise your theological position. After all, he is still a member of the First Presidency of the LDS Church, whether or not the LDS Church has any divine authority and even whether or not it is a real Christian Church.

[kenporay]

I'd like to think the US is a bit more rebellious than that, seeing how we are a country that was founded on rebellion etc. etc. As a kid I knew I would get a better grade if I wrote what they wanted - but inside I always had my own thoughts... perhaps in Eastern countries authority figures are still revered, but not here... that's the impression I get anyways.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from the talk:

"The Witness of truth from the Holy Ghost is available to all, everywhere, all around the globe. All who seek to know the truth, who study it out in their minds,²⁷ and who “ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, [will know] the truth … by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

That is what it comes down to, and where we find the ultimate truth - is from the Holy Ghost. The entire end of the talk explains how to rely on the Spirit - and fI think we Americans break down into the same ratio of leader & follers that other western countries do. or those who don't understand this, the Spirit is real - these are not just poetic words...

I think we Americans have the same leader, foller ratio as other western countries. It's nice to believe ourselves unique too. Edited March 8, 2013 by kenporay

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Is Mr. Uchtdorf saying

Thanks,

Jim

Point of order, we call him "Elder Uchtdorf"....those who do not to not care to make an effort, or do not car to come out swinging and give away their position. Please keep in mind you are speaking of someone we care for...

[Rivers]

Point of order, we call him "Elder Uchtdorf"....those who do not to not care to make an effort, or do not car to come out swinging and give away their position. Please keep in mind you are speaking of someone we care for...

I thought he is President Uchdorf because he is in the first presidency.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I'd like to think the US is a bit more rebellious than that, seeing how we are a country that was founded on rebellion etc. etc. As a kid I knew I would get a better grade if I wrote what they wanted - but inside I always had my own thoughts... perhaps in Eastern countries authority figures are still revered, but not here... that's the impression I get anyways.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from the talk:

"The Witness of truth from the Holy Ghost is available to all, everywhere, all around the globe. All who seek to know the truth, who study it out in their minds,²⁷ and who “ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, [will know] the truth … by the power of the Holy Ghost.”

That is what it comes down to, and where we find the ultimate truth - is from the Holy Ghost. The entire end of the talk explains how to rely on the Spirit - and for those who don't understand this, the Spirit is real - these are not just poetic words...

And the problem I have because of the evidence in the world is that the Holy Ghost does not teach the truth the same to people. He is a contradictory teacher who shouldn't be contradictory based upon the teachings about what kind of being and kind of thinking this Holy Ghost does. Just how do we reconcile this? I am seriously asking.

[theplains]

Point of order, we call him "Elder Uchtdorf"....those who do not to not care to make an effort, or do not car to come out swinging and give away their position. Please keep in mind you are speaking of someone we care for...

Thanks ... and noted.

Jim

[theplains]

In our day, both the Mormons as well as the Evangelicals created their own truth about each other.

Is he saying that Mormons may have created their own 'truths' about Evangelicals which

are really 'lies'? If yes, would you elaborate on some of the major ones said by the

Quorum of Twelve, Seventies, or the First Presidency, and Joseph Smith since 1820?

Thanks,

Jim

[Deborah]

And the problem I have because of the evidence in the world is that the Holy Ghost does not teach the truth the same to people. He is a contradictory teacher who shouldn't be contradictory based upon the teachings about what kind of being and kind of thinking this Holy Ghost does. Just how do we reconcile this? I am seriously asking.

Is it the Holy Ghost answering everyone?

Or is it that people will only receive that which they are ready and willing to receive. Not everyone is ready for the whole gospel message so they may just be given bits and pieces which improve their lives and with which they remain content?

[theplains]

"Or does it imply that we can go the grave believing and acting upon false teachings without consequences in the resurrection?"

Jim, are you proposing that if an individual believes in a falsehood that it will somehow affect their eternal salvation?

The Israelites who perished in the wilderness failed to enter into God's rest (Hebrews chapter

3 and 4) for their lack of faith. The same is true for New Testament believers. I believe one

will lose their salvation if they worship a false god.

Jim

[Deborah]

I believe one will lose their salvation if they worship a false god.

Whew! I'm glad I worship the true God.

[theplains]

Not necessarily. President Uchtdorf did not say that all doubt comes from Satan but that this was his primary method used for those who already embrace the truth.

Are you suggesting it is not possible for evangelicals to be motivated by Satan?

It is possible for all people to be motivated by Satan.

That is actually a great question. What have you concluded and why?

To me, the Nephites and Lamanities were not historical people.

No one can see through a glass with entire clarity and so therefore we will all die with at least some "dark" beliefs that will need to be corrected. Will there be consequences in the resurrection as a result? That depends on the beliefs. Don't you think?

I don't believe God's Word allows his believers to live and die with 'dark' beliefs. So if

one chooses to worship a 'man who became God', then they will have to endure the

consequences in life and the resurrection if this God proves to be an evil idea. The

Israelites were warned not to go after false gods. We could learn from their example.

Jim

[pogi]

I believe one will lose their salvation if they worship a false god.

Jim

I guess that means around 70% of the world population is doomed to utter damnation and hell simply because they were born in the wrong country and culture.

[BCSpace]

"Latter-day Saints are not asked to blindly accept everything they hear. We are encouraged

to think and discover truth for ourselves. We are expected to ponder, to search, to evaluate,

and thereby to come to a personal knowledge of the truth".

Does this include making vocal statements like "hey, what the church just printed in a manual

is false" to your local bishop?

As long as you don't teach your disagreement as doctrine and you can truthfully give the right answers on the TR questions etc. For example, does believing that what is printed in a manual is false cause you to no longer "sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator"? If so you would not receive a TR but you wouldn't necessarily be cast out of the Church.

Being a member of the Church presupposes you have a testimony of it somewhere/somehow, that you accept it as the only true Church. The Church does not give answers for everything but what it does give answers on is usually not negotiable. So no you are not asked to blindly accept, but if non acceptance leads you out of the Church, so be it.

Edited March 10, 2013 by BCSpace

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I thought he is President Uchdorf because he is in the first presidency.

His title of Elder will remain when Presidency is dissolved...point well taken.

[Bikeemikey]

The thread title says it all: the truth is what Uchtdorf speaks... simple as that.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[volgadon]

The

Israelites were warned not to go after false gods. We could learn from their example.

Jim

Have you?

[Sleeper Cell]

Is he saying that Mormons may have created their own 'truths' about Evangelicals which

are really 'lies'? If yes, would you elaborate on some of the major ones said by the

Quorum of Twelve, Seventies, or the First Presidency, and Joseph Smith since 1820?

Thanks,

Jim

Sigh.

People generally do not intend to create their own truths. When they do create their own truths, it is usually inadvertent, and is caused by misunderstanding, rather than by an intent to deceive. There is a big difference between misunderstanding and lying.

I cannot understand why you persist in seeing something nefarious in a simple plea for interfaith understanding.

[SamIam]

And the problem I have because of the evidence in the world is that the Holy Ghost does not teach the truth the same to people. He is a contradictory teacher who shouldn't be contradictory based upon the teachings about what kind of being and kind of thinking this Holy Ghost does. Just how do we reconcile this? I am seriously asking.

Kerry,

I consider your question extremely pertinent to the changes in the old Kerry versus the new Kerry. However, I need something more tangible. I have an idea of what you might mean in your question but I need to shore up my understanding to make sure. Can you give perhaps two examples that you think fit what you have stated above to consider in formulating a reply.

[Stargazer]

And the problem I have because of the evidence in the world is that the Holy Ghost does not teach the truth the same to people. He is a contradictory teacher who shouldn't be contradictory based upon the teachings about what kind of being and kind of thinking this Holy Ghost does. Just how do we reconcile this? I am seriously asking.

I don't know how contradictory it really is.

There was a conversion story in the first volume of Hartman and Connie Rector's "No More Strangers" series which illustrates this. A protestant minister related that while he was investigating the Church he was conflicted about leaving his ministry to become a Mormon. He received an interesting personal revelation that basically acknowledged the good he was doing where he was, with the reasonable suggestion that he could continue in it if he wished, or that he could "come with Me and play for higher stakes". This personal revelation seems to me to make clear that Father does not in all cases engage in black/white thinking.

What are we to make of Martin Luther? Or of Mohammed? Neither of these men were inspired to restore the Church of Christ, but both were more-or-less clearly inspired to bring men closer to the truth than they had been previously. I continue to harbor doubts about whether Mohammed actually communicated with the divine, but it remains the case that a Muslim is closer to the truth than the pagans that Islam displaced. I believe also that the Pope is fully capable of being inspired by the Holy Spirit, and is fully capable of obeying that inspiration.

The Spirit seems to have been working with mankind to the extent that mankind has permitted. I don't see that as contradictory.