Paid Apologetics?

[Robert F. Smith]

At one point in time I had the naive belief that colleges should primarily be interested in educating their students and that their reputations depended primarily upon the quality of their graduates, not the writing ability or research fame of their instructors. But unfortunately the cult of personality which has wrecked havoc in the corporate world is doing the same in the collegiate as well. Perhaps it is time for BYU administrators to recognize that BYU is primarily known for its effective work as a Mormon marriage mill and just get over themselves.

You're only partly correct, Stone holm:

The best colleges combine high quality teaching with heavy, advanced research -- demanding publications of high quality as well. Only a professor (and his graduate students) who does important research and stays on the cutting-edge has much to say to his students, and the only way we know for sure that the research is actually of high quality is to demand peer-reviewed publication of the results.

BYU is not widely considered to be an important research institution, and there is little reason to claim that some "personality cult" is wreaking havoc upon it. What is sad is that some powerful administrators at BYU might actually be naive enough to consider the purpose of the school well fulfilled if enough Mrs degrees are awarded each year.

Many years ago, just after she arrived at BYU and took up residence in Heritage Halls, a younger sister of mine wrote to me declaring her shock that all of her roommates were present at BYU for only one purpose!! Of course, my sister, a straight A student, who now has a master's degree, was actually the first of her roommates to get married -- to an equally serious straight A student. Lesson: Go to school to learn. The Mrs will take care of itself.

[Five Solas]

I don't think you ever had anything to say in the first place.

Mildly awkward to have waited till the thread had reached 8 pages to render such a judgment, as it makes participants who took the topic seriously look like naifs. Hopefully they'll forgive you

As you know...

You know what I know? Well please don't limit yourself to the content of this little thread, Paharon. Do tell it all

My town has a volunteer fire brigade; the members are not paid for their work. They are either employed in local jobs, or else they are self-employed people.

BYU professors publishing apologetics and complaining about their compensation are the equivalent of volunteer fire fighters. You might beware analogies that would cause even your fellow partisans to turn green

Nah. Nobody could possibly be that obtuse.

Could they?

You really put my Christian convictions to the test, Paharon

;0)

--Erik

[Calm]

BYU professors publishing apologetics and complaining about their compensation are the equivalent of volunteer fire fighters.

"Complaining about their compensation"? Do you mean there are BYU profs who have complained about not being compensated for their apologetic work?

[Vance]

You really put my Christian convictions to the test, Paharon

You have "Christian convictions"?

It is a good thing that you have told me, otherwise, I would NEVER have known.

[Scott Lloyd]

Mildly awkward to have waited till the thread had reached 8 pages to render such a judgment, as it makes participants who took the topic seriously look like naifs. Hopefully they'll forgive you

You know what I know? Well please don't limit yourself to the content of this little thread, Paharon. Do tell it all

BYU professors publishing apologetics and complaining about their compensation are the equivalent of volunteer fire fighters. You might beware analogies that would cause even your fellow partisans to turn green

You really put my Christian convictions to the test, Paharon

;0)

--Erik

I take it you have no substantive response to Pahoran's reasoning, then.

[Stone holm]

You're only partly correct, Stone holm:

The best colleges combine high quality teaching with heavy, advanced research -- demanding publications of high quality as well. Only a professor (and his graduate students) who does important research and stays on the cutting-edge has much to say to his students, and the only way we know for sure that the research is actually of high quality is to demand peer-reviewed publication of the results.

BYU is not widely considered to be an important research institution, and there is little reason to claim that some "personality cult" is wreaking havoc upon it. What is sad is that some powerful administrators at BYU might actually be naive enough to consider the purpose of the school well fulfilled if enough Mrs degrees are awarded each year.

Many years ago, just after she arrived at BYU and took up residence in Heritage Halls, a younger sister of mine wrote to me declaring her shock that all of her roommates were present at BYU for only one purpose!! Of course, my sister, a straight A student, who now has a master's degree, was actually the first of her roommates to get married -- to an equally serious straight A student. Lesson: Go to school to learn. The Mrs will take care of itself.

Having experienced several advanced degrees, although none at BYU, I have come to understand that my belief was naive. Almost as naive as the thinking that a great researcher and a great educator necessarily, or are even likely to inhabit the same body. What I have seen over and over again, is that Academia becomes fascinated by its own prestige and the institutions thrive on the grant research money they can pull into the organization. The result frequently is the creation of beings who are not terribly inclined or perhaps lack the ability to communicate effectively with their students in the classroom -- I know the best instructor at Notre Dame never climbed the academic ladder because he failed to write more than one book, but his lectures were simply astounding from beginning to end. We should probably just create research institutes where these people can go off and do their thing, and then seek out people who not only know their stuff, but can impart it to others. As for the Mrs. degree for which BYU is famous. I didn't mean that completely as a snarky comment, although I confess it was pretty heavily laden with it. My daughter had the same reaction to BYU which she promptly left after her first year. She is now completing her medical residency. I had one son who graduated from BYU and he found, dated, and married a coed from there who is on a medical school faculty now. He had to exercise some persistence in courting her, because he was frequently given declines which included the famous brush off line at BYU, "Oh no, sorry I have to study." He would have taken that statement for what it normally meant, "I am not interested in going out with you." -- except he checked up on her and was dumbfounded to discover a BYU Coed that actually studied....lol

[Pahoran]

Mildly awkward to have waited till the thread had reached 8 pages to render such a judgment, as it makes participants who took the topic seriously look like naifs. Hopefully they'll forgive you

Did you just have a Proverbs 6:19 moment?

You know what I know? Well please don't limit yourself to the content of this little thread, Paharon. Do tell it all

Let's just stay on topic, shall we?

All of the testimony from the direct participants, including Professor Hamblin, is that they are not paid for their apologetic work. (Dan has apparently received a couple of small honoraria, but they were exceptions.) If I am wrong in presuming that you know that your unsupported speculations do not rise to the level of evidence, then I have clearly given you far too much credit.

BYU professors publishing apologetics and complaining about their compensation are the equivalent of volunteer fire fighters. You might beware analogies that would cause even your fellow partisans to turn green

I take it, then, that you have no valid criticism of my analogy, since you had to invent something to find fault with?

No BYU professors have been heard "complaining about their compensation" for their apologetics work. They receive none, and expect none, so there is nothing to complain about. Professor Hamblin reported that the compensation he received for his paid work was negatively impacted because of his apologetic activities.

You really put my Christian convictions to the test, Paharon

;0)

--Erik

You have them?

Is manufacturing accusations of dishonesty one of your "Christian convictions," or are you merely convinced that the benefit of the doubt accrues to the accuser?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Stone holm]

I love it when academics debate academic politics! Let me add my unwelcome two cents -- about Mormon Studies. Back in the day when I was obtaining my graduate degree in American Studies and a short period in the history Phd program at Notre Dame, I had a substantial interest in religious history. In fact my published Thesis was on basically a religious community that my ancestors were part of in the Midwest -- they were the so-called Scottish Covenanters (sometimes referred to as Reformed Presbyterians). But I digress, Notre Dame at that time was very open to Mormons and very courteous to us, and I suspect it still is. Unfortunately, much of the Mormon history and cultural studies that were in circulation and given much weight at all were written by non-Mormons. Notre Dame did not normally assign or push anti-Mormon writers or scholars, but the ones that were not anti-Mormon seemed to rarely get the nuances right -- in fact when read by a Mormon, some sounded a little silly at times. I think the name of the author who was most prominent at the time was Jan Phipps, and I even attended one of her presentations on campus. Her heart was in the right place, but she just didn't get the nuances right. Now, its been about 20 some years and I went back to practicing law and did not keep abrest of things -- but I suspect there is still a need for Mormon Studies, studies that can be taken seriously by non-Mormons. Now I am not sure exactly what is meant by "apolegectics" in the above battle -- but I don't think that it is the same as what scholars outside of Utah would consider valid as something claiming to be Mormon Studies, I am not totally convinced that BYU can ever offer something that the rest of academia will ever consider valid as Mormon studies. But, I do think that Mormon Scholars could establish Mormon Studies departments elsewhere -- but they will have to be thick skinned and they will have to be willing to be honest about our blemishes. If BYU is intending to establish something that is honest and allows for academic freedom when studying our religion, well that would be all to the good -- but it seems like a very unlikely development. And, I am not sure that it would be consistent with the mission for BYU.

[Scott Lloyd]

Notre Dame did not normally assign or push anti-Mormon writers or scholars, but the ones that were not anti-Mormon seemed to rarely get the nuances right -- in fact when read by a Mormon, some sounded a little silly at times. I think the name of the author who was most prominent at the time was Jan Phipps, and I even attended one of her presentations on campus.

What a conincidence! There's a prominent, non-Mormon scholar of Mormon studies with an almost identical name: Jan Shipps.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Stone holm]

What a conincidence! There's a prominent, non-Mormon scholar of Mormon studies with an almost identical name: Jan Shipps.

Yeah, I got the name wrong her name was Jan Shipps. Jan had her heart in the right place, and I knew some of the people she interviewed in the Church in her attempt to get things right -- but she never quite got the nuances right when she ventured into current Mormon culture. Is she still publishing? I think she was just starting out back then. I thnk I got assigned to review one of her books in a graduate colloquim on the history of the frontier. I don't remember much about it or the later presentation she made -- other than she defended Mormons in general, but got the nuances of Mormon culture wrong. Notre Dame's graduate students and Professors were very gracious and interested towards and in Mormons -- but that did not prevent them from making rather simple mistakes or drawing incorrect implications -- some were humorous. I remember Prof. Kirby who was in my estimation one of the best lecturers I have ever seen perform once referring to the Angel Moroni -- except he pronounced it like macaroni, and another Professor commenting on the fact that you would never see an active Mormon woman in a sleeveless dress -- the implication being something to do with our female modesty standards, when the same thing could be said of a Mormon man in a sleeveless shirt. And Church organization regarding Bishoprics and Stake High Councils, etc. sometimes got them completely baffled or they got the nuances wrong. I considered the possibility of going on with some Mormon topic in a dissertation, before I decided that the poverty of continuing in academics for a Phd when I had six kids made no sense when I already had a law degree and a practice, so I bailed and went back to practicing law. But Notre Dame had the same type of academic political in-fighting as I am watching displayed here for BYU, except the Stakes were higher because the salaries and stipends were also higher.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yeah, I got the name wrong her name was Jan Shipps. Jan had her heart in the right place, and I knew some of the people she interviewed in the Church in her attempt to get things right -- but she never quite got the nuances right when she ventured into current Mormon culture. Is she still publishing?

Yes. She is arguably the most prominent and oft-quoted non-Mormon scholar in the field of Mormon studies. She's the go-to person for national breaking news stories on Mormonism when journalists want a comment from a not-unfriendly academic source who is outside the faith.

I suggest looking up the Wikipedia entry on her if you want to know more.

[Stone holm]

Yes. She is arguably the most prominent and oft-quoted non-Mormon scholar in the field of Mormon studies. She's the go-to person for national breaking news stories on Mormonism when journalists want a comment from a not-unfriendly academic source who is outside the faith.

I suggest looking up the Wikipedia entry on her if you want to know more.

Its funny how they go to non-Mormons as friendly experts. I suspect if someone wanted to create a similar niche for themselves, they should write a dissertation on Jehovah Witness culture and theology, but it is very difficult to penetrate their culture without posing as one. I hope that she has developed a better understanding of our culture. She used to interview the Stake leadership in Indianapolis, not sure why -- maybe she was affiliated with IU or something as she used to interview people associated with the Bloomington Ward -- which had a lot of knowledgeable Mormon scholars -- but she didn't seem to get things quite right like the culture was slightly out of focus for her or something. She may have developed out of that though, when I read and listened to her -- she was just starting out as a rising star in the field.

[Robert F. Smith]

Its funny how they go to non-Mormons as friendly experts. I suspect if someone wanted to create a similar niche for themselves, they should write a dissertation on Jehovah Witness culture and theology, but it is very difficult to penetrate their culture without posing as one. I hope that she has developed a better understanding of our culture. She used to interview the Stake leadership in Indianapolis, not sure why -- maybe she was affiliated with IU or something as she used to interview people associated with the Bloomington Ward -- which had a lot of knowledgeable Mormon scholars -- but she didn't seem to get things quite right like the culture was slightly out of focus for her or something. She may have developed out of that though, when I read and listened to her -- she was just starting out as a rising star in the field.

The PR people at LDS Church HQ used to say that Jan "understands us." She got her undergrad training in history at USU, Logan, and had very close friends who were Mormon. She has always been Methodist.

[Robert F. Smith]

Having experienced several advanced degrees, although none at BYU, I have come to understand that my belief was naive. Almost as naive as the thinking that a great researcher and a great educator necessarily, or are even likely to inhabit the same body. What I have seen over and over again, is that Academia becomes fascinated by its own prestige and the institutions thrive on the grant research money they can pull into the organization. The result frequently is the creation of beings who are not terribly inclined or perhaps lack the ability to communicate effectively with their students in the classroom -- I know the best instructor at Notre Dame never climbed the academic ladder because he failed to write more than one book, but his lectures were simply astounding from beginning to end. We should probably just create research institutes where these people can go off and do their thing, and then seek out people who not only know their stuff, but can impart it to others. As for the Mrs. degree for which BYU is famous. I didn't mean that completely as a snarky comment, although I confess it was pretty heavily laden with it. My daughter had the same reaction to BYU which she promptly left after her first year. She is now completing her medical residency. I had one son who graduated from BYU and he found, dated, and married a coed from there who is on a medical school faculty now. He had to exercise some persistence in courting her, because he was frequently given declines which included the famous brush off line at BYU, "Oh no, sorry I have to study." He would have taken that statement for what it normally meant, "I am not interested in going out with you." -- except he checked up on her and was dumbfounded to discover a BYU Coed that actually studied....lol

I think it unwise to take individual horrible examples and extrapolate from them to a general rule. I have studied at some very rigorous and demanding research institutions where field and lab work are highly valued and publication de rigeuer. There will always be very talented teachers who keep up only by reading the academic literature in their field, but I am more impressed by those who actually do the research, who take the time to plumb the depths in their field and don't get stale on repeat lectures (which much of undergrad ed consists of anyhow). I like to see experienced and talented teachers/researchers producing other such teachers/researchers via grad school.

Opportunities for all the evils you mention certainly exist, and should be considered as part of the pitfalls which can frustrate someone who is truly naive and unprepared for a real education.

Hugh Nibley used to tell talented graduates not to get an advanced degree at BYU (in one case he threatened never to speak to his student again if that happened).

[Robert F. Smith]

I love it when academics debate academic politics! Let me add my unwelcome two cents -- about Mormon Studies. Back in the day when I was obtaining my graduate degree in American Studies and a short period in the history Phd program at Notre Dame, I had a substantial interest in religious history. In fact my published Thesis was on basically a religious community that my ancestors were part of in the Midwest -- they were the so-called Scottish Covenanters (sometimes referred to as Reformed Presbyterians). But I digress, Notre Dame at that time was very open to Mormons and very courteous to us, and I suspect it still is. Unfortunately, much of the Mormon history and cultural studies that were in circulation and given much weight at all were written by non-Mormons. Notre Dame did not normally assign or push anti-Mormon writers or scholars, but the ones that were not anti-Mormon seemed to rarely get the nuances right -- in fact when read by a Mormon, some sounded a little silly at times. I think the name of the author who was most prominent at the time was Jan Phipps, and I even attended one of her presentations on campus. Her heart was in the right place, but she just didn't get the nuances right. Now, its been about 20 some years and I went back to practicing law and did not keep abrest of things -- but I suspect there is still a need for Mormon Studies, studies that can be taken seriously by non-Mormons. Now I am not sure exactly what is meant by "apolegectics" in the above battle -- but I don't think that it is the same as what scholars outside of Utah would consider valid as something claiming to be Mormon Studies, I am not totally convinced that BYU can ever offer something that the rest of academia will ever consider valid as Mormon studies. But, I do think that Mormon Scholars could establish Mormon Studies departments elsewhere -- but they will have to be thick skinned and they will have to be willing to be honest about our blemishes. If BYU is intending to establish something that is honest and allows for academic freedom when studying our religion, well that would be all to the good -- but it seems like a very unlikely development. And, I am not sure that it would be consistent with the mission for BYU.

Actually, a number of serious Mormon Studies programs have been developed or are in process (Claremont has been operating one for years; USU, Logan; Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley; etc.).

Whether BYU would be permitted to have such a program is the real question. The talent and capacity is certainly there, and BYU has been playing host to many such nascent programs via symposia unlike any held in the past. I'm not sure what the mission of BYU is, or whether it has only one mission.

[Louis Midgley]

Actually, one of the Biblical scholars, Richard Elliott Friedman has written a book on this, "The Disappearance of God." I haven't read it yet because I got so darn interested in studying reality as it really is with physics and mathematics.

The Shirtmaster studies "reality" with a chain saw. Amazing.

[Louis Midgley]

Oh this has been an amusing thread. The best line in this thread was for me Pahoran musing about a quirk in his Kiwi dialect. That one brought more than smiles.

Powerhouse has file leaders to the left, file leaders to right, and file leaders to his rear. But the Shirtsmaster–one really must keep an eye on the spelling of that one–seems to have dropped his spinnaker in the grot or bog. The Shirtsmaser has now, it seems, gunned down God, and hence imagines himself to be the grand master of what he calls “reality.” The best he can he can muster is self-inflicted mirth.

[volgadon]

The PR people at LDS Church HQ used to say that Jan "understands us." She got her undergrad training in history at USU, Logan, and had very close friends who were Mormon. She has always been Methodist.

USU had some real characters in those years.

[DBMormon]

Does he teach the two courses to more then one class or is he only teaching two classes? That seems like a light load.

So for instance he teaches class 1 on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 10 – 11:30 and then Class B on Monday and Friday from 2-4 pm?

or he he teaching these two courses to multiple classes of students comprising much of his work week?

[Calm]

Does he teach the two courses to more then one class or is he only teaching two classes? That seems like a light load.

So for instance he teaches class 1 on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday from 10 – 11:30 and then Class B on Monday and Friday from 2-4 pm?

or he he teaching these two courses to multiple classes of students comprising much of his work week?

I've lost track of the conversation, what are you referring to?

[DBMormon]

I've lost track of the conversation, what are you referring to?

The first post by Bro. Daniel Peterson in this thread.

Current Classes:

• Hist 201. World History to AD 1500
  
• Hist 238. Ancient Near East To 330 BC
  

Classes Taught:

• Hist 201: World History to AD 1500
  
• Hist 238: Ancient Near East to 330 BC
  
• Hist 239: Classical Near East, 330 BC to AD 640
  
• Hist 240: Islamic Middle East (AD 600 - 1800)
  
• Hist 332R. Scandinavian History
  
• Hist 335: The Crusades
  
• Hist 390. Special Topics in History
  
• Hist 398R: Arab Conquests
  
• Hist 398R: Ancient Warfare to 500 BC
  
• Hist 398R: Campaigns of Alexander the Great
  
• Hist 398R: Muhammad and the Qur'an
  
• Hist 398R: Celestial Ascent
  
• Hist 490: Senior Seminar on Premodern Military:
  
• 
  

Edited March 14, 2013 by DBMormon

[Calm]

Just checked the class schedule, looks like he teaches the first on MWF and then another class of the same in the evening on T.

The other class only he teaches once.

(can you tell I am avoiding work today?)

[DBMormon]

So that is a pretty light teaching schedule? I realize there are many commitments outside of class teaching but is this a normal workload for a college professor?

[Calm]

I realize there are many commitments outside of class teaching but is this a normal workload for a college professor?

Yep.

(just realized I wasn't clear)

Edited March 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[Five Solas]

I take it you have no substantive response to Pahoran's reasoning, then.

What reasoning is there, Scott? On page 8 of the thread, Pahoran charges me with having nothing to say. He then alleges he can read my mind ("as you know"). And then to top it off he compares BYU professors who publish apologetic works with volunteer firefighters.

How can I (or anyone) make a "substantive response" to such stuff? Seriously Scott, I'd like to know what you're thinking here.

If you want an example of a substantive dialogue, go back to my exchange with Robert F. Smith on the thread. He made a good point, and I conceded as much.

But here's what I will say (and happily it has nothing to do with Pahoran). The other day I was in the car driving out to one of my clients, listening to John Richards show on KEXP (yes, I'm blessed to live in Seattle). And I heard this excellent track by a band called "Midlake." I made a mental note and found them on YouTube.

:0)

Please take a break & enjoy,

--Erik