Paid Apologetics?

[mfbukowski]

How did you manage to get all that wrong, Shirtmaster?

Holy cow, you really have to watch the spelling on that one.

[mfbukowski]

The poor settlers of Zhankoye and other Jewish communal villages were severely persecuted under Stalin, and then obliterated by the Nazis.

Are you sure? How did that happen?

[Storm Rider]

Gee, why doesn't God step up to the plate periodically? After all it's supposed to be HIS work and glory right? The very premise that an Almighty deity has started all this ought to be enough to realize the utter silliness of apologetic work at all. If it's important to God, then you'd think he'd make sure He does it right right? It appears to me that just as 200 years passed in early Christianity and the apologists rose and absolutely tore the livin hell out of Christianity, we are now in that position, and having the exact same results. Apologetics has done nothing to stopping mass exodus out of the church or causing more friction than solving problems. Apologetics doesn't solve anything does it? Apologetics backfires for one simple reason. It can't be the truth, it's bias to a particular view, a very partial, incomplete view, and it supposes though that it is defending the actual total truth that God wants defended. If God wants it defended He could do a much more convincing job at it couldn't he? That we humans actually feel the *need* to defend opens the door to the distinct possibility that God simply isn't doing his job with his church now doesn't it? Or is this ALSO taboo to discuss intelligently and without rankling the righteous into paroxyisms of rage at such apostate vile thoughts? God obviously isn't exactly on top of the situation that I can see. I would actually propose that doing apologetics is proof that no one has faith in the Holy Spirit to do HIS job of testifying and teaching as the scripture says He is supposed to. What possible better way is there than that?

Kerry, as I read your comments above all that I felt was sadness and pity. There is so much heartache in your words I am sorry that you have experienced such pain. I agree that the first several hundred years, far more than the first two hundred, were times when theologians were more than active in causing mobs to kill and maim the opposing side. This was occurring long after Chalcedon. Regardless of history, I guess it is better to say that I appreciate reading some theologians and others I don't. I tend to shy away from strident writings and enjoy those that reflect a similar style to the writings of...Neal A. Maxwell comes to mind this morning. His were words that cooled, nourished, and replenished the desiccated soul of one journeying far too long in a world absent of the Spirit. It would be great if God would just take things in hand, caste aside any real sense of free agency and just be that burning bush on the mountain that all could visit as often as needed. Fortunately, or unfortunately depending upon our perspective, God works through this poor instruments as the hands and hearts of humanity. You have drawn such a bleak picture and you struggle so hard against a void of your own choosing. Though it is painful it does offer an opportunity for surcease and that is when you finally tire there is surrender. Surrender to a God that has never left you, but allowed you and all those of us who know by experience your current condition, the time to fight against his will, his plan. As I have gotten old I have learned that I know far less than I once thought. One of the few things I know is that God is there. I can understand your feelings very well.

[powerservice]

I hope I can follow Dr. Hamblim's and do what my file leader has ask of me. He sets a fine example for all of us. And I don't think there's any more to be said.

[volgadon]

I hope I can follow Dr. Hamblim's and do what my file leader has ask of me. He sets a fine example for all of us. And I don't think there's any more to be said.

What kind of rot is this talk about file leaders?

[Scott Lloyd]

What kind of rot is this talk about file leaders?

Thinly veiled mockery.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Shirtmaster,

What is truly astonishing about this paragraph is that you have managed to get virtually everything wrong, as if you were never in any way acquainted with Mormonism, but only with some odd, inexplicable version of mainstream "christianity" -- which even normative christians would disown.

I mean, there is nothing recognizable as Mormon doctrine or theology in your short diatribe here. That is in itself quite an accomplishment. Yet everyone here no doubt considers you to have at least at one time to have been a member of the LDS Church. So, why doesn't it show in some way? This is a true mystery. Even stranger, you don't seem to recognize the problem, as if some alien entity has taken possession of your body and mind, even blaspheming against God and the Holy Spirit. You don't suffer from MPD (multiple personality disorder) do you?

The simple answers to your absurd questions are:

God doesn't have a policy of crippling children by carefully walking them across the street when they are experienced enough to do it by themselves.

God's glory is in humans with free agency making their own choices -- only thus can He bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humans. Only Satan proposed to interfere and make everyone do the right thing, and thus frustrate the ends of justice and grace.

God is finite and depends on us to freely cooperate (or not) as we choose. For we are coeternal with Him.

God expects His followers and priesthood to act as his agents, defending the faith when necessary, performing ordinances and essential rites, making covenants, and blessing those in need.

There is no "mass exodus" out of the LDS Church, although apostates continually repeat that lie -- as though repetition alone would prove it. And those few who do leave (some only temporarily) usually do so for emotional-psychological reasons having nothing to do with factual evaluation of the LDS Church. Sincere defenders of the faith do annoy apostates, because they show just how shallow and uninformed the apostates are. Indeed, the Great Apostasy was created by angry, willful "christians" who sought power and influence over others, who sought riches and fame, instead of the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit does testify of the truth of what God's emissaries preach, which is the real basis of conversion and authentic testimonies.

How did you manage to get all that wrong, Shirtmaster?

Because my talents know no bounds?

[Helen47]

Shirtmaster,

There is no "mass exodus" out of the LDS Church, although apostates continually repeat that lie -- as though repetition alone would prove it. And those few who do leave (some only temporarily) usually do so for emotional-psychological reasons having nothing to do with factual evaluation of the LDS Church. Sincere defenders of the faith do annoy apostates, because they show just how shallow and uninformed the apostates are. Indeed, the Great Apostasy was created by angry, willful "christians" who sought power and influence over others, who sought riches and fame, instead of the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit does testify of the truth of what God's emissaries preach, which is the real basis of conversion and authentic testimonies.

How did you manage to get all that wrong, Shirtmaster?

Good grief am I both shallow and uninformed? I check my bookshelf and downloads. How could this be so? amazing response.

[Scott Lloyd]

Good grief am I both shallow and uninformed? I check my bookshelf and downloads. How could this be so? amazing response.

"The wicked flee when no man pursueth."

[volgadon]

Because my talents know no bounds?

Awesome answer!

[ERayR]

Gee, why doesn't God step up to the plate periodically? After all it's supposed to be HIS work and glory right? The very premise that an Almighty deity has started all this ought to be enough to realize the utter silliness of apologetic work at all. If it's important to God, then you'd think he'd make sure He does it right right? It appears to me that just as 200 years passed in early Christianity and the apologists rose and absolutely tore the livin hell out of Christianity, we are now in that position, and having the exact same results. Apologetics has done nothing to stopping mass exodus out of the church or causing more friction than solving problems. Apologetics doesn't solve anything does it? Apologetics backfires for one simple reason. It can't be the truth, it's bias to a particular view, a very partial, incomplete view, and it supposes though that it is defending the actual total truth that God wants defended. If God wants it defended He could do a much more convincing job at it couldn't he? That we humans actually feel the *need* to defend opens the door to the distinct possibility that God simply isn't doing his job with his church now doesn't it? Or is this ALSO taboo to discuss intelligently and without rankling the righteous into paroxyisms of rage at such apostate vile thoughts? God obviously isn't exactly on top of the situation that I can see. I would actually propose that doing apologetics is proof that no one has faith in the Holy Spirit to do HIS job of testifying and teaching as the scripture says He is supposed to. What possible better way is there than that?

I guess I will just have to accept what you say as I do not have the view that your omniscient vantage provides. On second thought I don't think I want to worship at the alter of Kerry Shirts.

[ERayR]

Because my talents know no bounds?

Nor your ego I am afraid.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I guess I will just have to accept what you say as I do not have the view that your omniscient vantage provides. On second thought I don't think I want to worship at the alter of Kerry Shirts.

You would be a complete dolt to do so Ray.

[volgadon]

Hadn't heard of that one, but the Rabbi is still as sharp as a tack. Last time I was in Brookline, Mass (2011), he finished my sentence while I was quoting a passage from Isaiah in Hebrew. His wife still teaches Hebrew, by the way.

He also has another book coming out this year. You may be interested in some of the following (just a selection):

Schultz, “Angelic Opposition to the Ascension of Moses and the Revelation of the Law,” Jewish Quarterly Review, 61 (July 1971), 282-307.

Schultz, “The Religious Psychology of Jonathan Edwards and the Hassidic Masters of Habad,” Journal of Ecumenical Studies, 10/4 (Fall 1973), 716-727.

Schultz, “The Lurianic Strand in Jonathan Edwards’ Concept of Progress,” Judaica, 30/3 (Sept 1971), 126-134.

Schultz, Judaism and the Gentile Faiths: Comparative Studies in Religion, Sarah F. Yoseloff Memorial Publications in Judaism and Jewish Affairs (Rutherford, NJ: Farleigh ****inson Univ. Press/ East Brunswick, NJ & Toronto: Associated University Presses, 1981).

Rabbi Joseph Schultz sounds wonderful. I've actually seen the Moses article referenced in many publications, but unfortunately had not heard of the Jonathan Edwards ones. A shame, because I think they might have come in handy for my upcoming presentation.

[volgadon]

Are you sure? How did that happen?

Completely unexpected, right?

Still, if anyone is interested in the longer version of the answer, I highly recommend Dekel-Chen's "Farming the Red Land," the first comprehensive study of the Jewish agricultural communes in the Crimea.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Robert Smith

God doesn't have a policy of crippling children by carefully walking them across the street when they are experienced enough to do it by themselves.

God doesn't have a policy of saving millions of starving to death children in their praying mothers arms either. God doesn't have a policy of keeping his promises in the scriptures of giving us whatever we need in faith and righteousness either. In fact, God is very seldom active in the world. He used to be, that is, IF we give any credence to those ancient screeds of imagination in the Bible.

God's glory is in humans with free agency making their own choices -- only thus can He bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of humans. Only Satan proposed to interfere and make everyone do the right thing, and thus frustrate the ends of justice and grace.

Which completely misses the point I was making. God has no need for humans to defend him. We are told the SPirit will testify, so what need for you, or me or anyone else pretending we are defending God? The idea is ludicrous. We can't help an almighty being, and this almighty being apparently isn't doing such a hot job teaching the world truth either.

God is finite and depends on us to freely cooperate (or not) as we choose. For we are coeternal with Him.

God is finite eh? You are, quite frankly, the ONLY Mormon I have EVER heard say and think this Robert. I have NEVER heard any modern prophet ever teach this. What am I missing? Even Joseph Smith himself prayed to the "Omniscient, Omnipotent God." I'm going to use that as my sig with you receiving the full credit. Coeternal cannot exist with finite, perhaps you can elaborate this contradiction?

God expects His followers and priesthood to act as his agents, defending the faith when necessary, performing ordinances and essential rites, making covenants, and blessing those in need.

So all those scriptures that actually do pretend to SHOW God actually coming and helping out are really just fantasies and fairy tales after all. Just as I have come to suspect.

Blessing those in need?! Tell that to the suffering millions on earth Robert. Just go right ahead, perhaps you can use Givens theodicy of God not doing one dang thing, but at least he sheds tears over our condition. We have a God who won't do anything to help all his children, or even the greater majority, but is a big ball baby in the sky. One heckuva convincing theodicy that eh? Sorry dudes n babes, can't come to help, but hey, I'm weeping mightily for you from here in heaven! That's just gonna have to do for now.

There is no "mass exodus" out of the LDS Church, although apostates continually repeat that lie -- as though repetition alone would prove it.

My parents while they were on their mission had a mission wide meeting with one of the 70's over the area, and he said that President Hinckley was sick over the hemorraging of people leaving the church. He told all the missionaries that while we do have 300,000 people joining every year, There are 300,000 leaving every year. My dad said the 70 quoting President Hinckley said "Where has our investment gone?" We can and MUST do better. Just recently one of the General Authorities said there are more people leaving right now than happened in the Kirtland era of the church. Its HUGE. Burying your head in the sand pretending all is well in Zion is about the only apologetic that works for you I see.

And those few who do leave (some only temporarily) usually do so for emotional-psychological reasons having nothing to do with factual evaluation of the LDS Church.

Yes, that is the only apologetic you are willing to entertain. Because you say so, that is the ONLY reason anyone ever leaves. Doesn't matter what they say, once Robert Smith speaks, that is the truth and proof.

Sincere defenders of the faith do annoy apostates,

I promise, I more than promise its amusing rather than annoying. Based on what they tell me. You are inflating your own importance here beyond reality.

because they show just how shallow and uninformed the apostates are.

I have yet to see any apologists take on *REAL* and honest criticisms as say Thomas Riskas, "Deconstructing Mormonism." Granted he shot himself in the foot being so obtuse in the few opening chapters, but his critique is rather overwhelmingly powerful, that is if you can fathom logic.

Indeed, the Great Apostasy was created by angry, willful "christians" who sought power and influence over others, who sought riches and fame, instead of the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now is this about critics or the church, just curious.

The Holy Spirit does testify of the truth of what God's emissaries preach, which is the real basis of conversion and authentic testimonies.

THen why doesn't he tell everyone the same truth? This is mere assertion Robert. The Holy Ghost doesn't tell other religions and their leaders anything about Mormonism. The Muslims have barely heard of Mormons, nor do they quit their religion and join Mormons by droves. a mere 300,000 is a trickle compared to what COULD happen if the Holy Ghost wasn't so often on vacation dontchta think? Here we have an almighty spirit who can't seem to keep the story straight to all peoples. The Catholics contend the Spirit tells them how wonderful THEIR religion is, the Baptists proclaim the same. There is no objective way to understand this. But it's a nice sentiment for people who already believe, the problem is each and every religion believes this about THEIR religion, not about Mormonism.

How did you manage to get all that wrong, Shirtmaster?

I didn't.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Kerry A. Shirts

[volgadon]

Robert Smith

God doesn't have a policy of saving millions of starving to death children in their praying mothers arms either. God doesn't have a policy of keeping his promises in the scriptures of giving us whatever we need in faith and righteousness either. In fact, God is very seldom active in the world. He used to be, that is, IF we give any credence to those ancient screeds of imagination in the Bible...

Blessing those in need?! Tell that to the suffering millions on earth Robert. Just go right ahead, perhaps you can use Givens theodicy of God not doing one dang thing, but at least he sheds tears over our condition. We have a God who won't do anything to help all his children, or even the greater majority, but is a big ball baby in the sky. One heckuva convincing theodicy that eh? Sorry dudes n babes, can't come to help, but hey, I'm weeping mightily for you from here in heaven! That's just gonna have to do for now.

You can skip to the 3:00 mark if you like, but this upbeat melody was actually performed at an international Holocaust memorial event. The background is as follows. The melody is old, it predates the Holocaust, but when the Jews of one town were rounded up, they were made to dig the pits for their own burial. As the pits were dug, an old Jew said why should we go as lambs to the slaughter? He started singing this melody, others joined in, and they broke out into a dance around the pit. The Germans, needless to say, were stunned. They came to and gunned the dancers down, but who do you think the victors were? Sure, the indomitable human spirit, but let's go deeper. I'm sure that you've come across explanations of the meaning of joy in Hasidism, which allows one to cleave to God, and elevate the sparks of divine light back to the rock from which they were hewn. Let us go even farther. The sparks of divine light were coexistant with God, and have their counterpart in both the D&C and the BoA.

[powerservice]

What kind of rot is this talk about file leaders?

Such respect for those whom God has called.

[ERayR]

You would be a complete dolt to do so Ray.

That's what I thought too.

[volgadon]

Such respect for those whom God has called.

i've never, ever heard priesthood leaders refered to as file leaders. Not even in the several years that I served in branch presidencies. Your usage smacks of the ridiculous, pompous martinet.

[mfbukowski]

Completely unexpected, right?

Still, if anyone is interested in the longer version of the answer, I highly recommend Dekel-Chen's "Farming the Red Land," the first comprehensive study of the Jewish agricultural communes in the Crimea.

I had no idea! Thanks for the enlightenment.

[volgadon]

God is finite eh? You are, quite frankly, the ONLY Mormon I have EVER heard say and think this Robert. I have NEVER heard any modern prophet ever teach this. What am I missing?

Who said that man is finite?

At any rate, perhaps you are missing this.

"Restoration correctives provide emancipating perspectives! The revelations, when “pressed down, and shaken together,” emphasize that man is, at once, an intelligence or spirit coeternal—but certainly not coequal—with God (see Abr. 3:18)."

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/03/the-richness-of-the-restoration?lang=eng&query=coeternal

[powerservice]

i've never, ever heard priesthood leaders refered to as file leaders. Not even in the several years that I served in branch presidencies. Your usage smacks of the ridiculous, pompous martinet.

Following file leaders is what Mormons do.

Pres. Packer, although stern at times, is a humble and foregiving man. While I can't speak for him, obviously, I don't think he will hold it against you. But that, of course, will be between you and him.

But I'd encourage us all to follow our file leaders as Dr. Hamblin has done.

http://emp.byui.edu/huffr/The%20Unwritten%20Order%20of%20Things%20--%20Boyd%20K.%20Packer.htm

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/go-ye-all-world-messages-new-testament-apostles/paul-s-inspired-teachings-marriage

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/04/honoring-the-priesthood?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/02/what-every-elder-should-know-and-every-sister-as-well-a-primer-on-principles-of-priesthood-government?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/10/in-counsellors-there-is-safety?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-the-living-prophets-student-manual/chapter-4-the-quorum-of-the-first-presidency?lang=eng

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?reviewed_author&vol=6&num=2&id=163

[volgadon]

So all those scriptures that actually do pretend to SHOW God actually coming and helping out are really just fantasies and fairy tales after all. Just as I have come to suspect.

Why have you set up this silly dichotomy that even the scriptures don't support?

[mfbukowski]

deleted

Edited March 6, 2013 by mfbukowski