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Paid Apologetics?

Five Solas

By Five Solas
in General Discussions

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volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted (edited)

Following file leaders is what Mormons do.

Pres. Packer, although stern at times, is a humble and foregiving man. While I can't speak for him, obviously, I don't think he will hold it against you. But that, of course, will be between you and him.

But I'd encourage us all to follow our file leaders as Dr. Hamblin has done.

http://emp.byui.edu/...d K. Packer.htm

http://rsc.byu.edu/a...chings-marriage

https://www.lds.org/...sthood?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/e...rnment?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/...safety?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/m...idency?lang=eng

http://maxwellinstit...=6&num=2&id=163

First of all, since when are BYU department heads priesthood leaders? Second, even if they are, they are not my leaders, thankee. Third, you also are no leader of mine. Fourth, I'm glad that this ridiculous term with all its 18th-19th century military connotations has died out. Fifth, It's coming yet for a' that, that man to man, the world o'er, shall brothers be for a' that.

Edited by volgadon
1
powerservice Rookie

powerservice

Posted
Posted

First of all, since when are BYU department heads priesthood leaders? Second, even if they are, they are not my leaders, thankee. Third, you also are no leader of mine. Fourth, I'm glad that this ridiculous term with all its 18th-19th century military connotations has died out. Fifth, It's coming yet for a' that, that man to man, the world o'er, shall brothers be for a' that.

President Packer's BYU devotional address "The Unwritten Order of Things" from 1996 is well worth reading today for many reasons. As is Elder Nelson's 1993 General Priesthood meeting address. Personally, I'd never make fun of their phrasing.

You are, of course, free to do and say what you choose. But I do my best to follow my file leaders, whether my Primary President or my CES supervisor. God is not the author of confusion.

I do my best to teach my family to do the same both by what I tell them and by example.

I think Dr. Hamblin has set a fine example for all of us.

volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

President Packer's BYU devotional address "The Unwritten Order of Things" from 1996 is well worth reading today for many reasons. As is Elder Nelson's 1993 General Priesthood meeting address. Personally, I'd never make fun of their phrasing.

You are, of course, free to do and say what you choose. But I do my best to follow my file leaders, whether my Primary President or my CES supervisor. God is not the author of confusion.

I do my best to teach my family to do the same both by what I tell them and by example.

Looking at this,

I give as my first illustration of this unwritten order of things so simple a thing as this: The one who presides in a meeting should sit on the stand and sit close to the one conducting. It is a bit difficult to preside over a meeting from the congregation. The one who presides is responsible for the conduct of the meeting and has the right and the responsibility to receive inspiration and may be prompted to adjust or correct something that goes on in the meeting. That is true whether it be an auxiliary meeting presided over by the sisters or any of our meetings.

My best experiences as a counsellor in the branch presidency came when the branch president decided that we should sit not on a stand, but among the congregation. He had done the same in the USA when a stake president. That was a powerful example of humility and brotherly love, and yes, it did resonate with the leadership ethos I learned in the IDF, as well as my Leveller leanings.

I think Dr. Hamblin has set a fine example for all of us.

Since when are BYU department heads considered priesthood leaders?

1
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

But I do my best to follow my file leaders, whether my Primary President or my CES supervisor.

And is your employer one of your file leaders? Edited by calmoriah
1
William Schryver Mentor

William Schryver

Posted
Posted

/snip/ majority of surprisingly contemptuous post

Hey, Kerry! It's been a while. I've actually given you a call several times when I've been visiting my daughter in Rigby, but I've never been able to connect with you, nor did you return my messages, assuming you ever got them. Maybe sometime in the future. Anyway, I did want to comment on just a couple things you had to say:

My parents while they were on their mission had a mission wide meeting with one of the 70's over the area, and he said that President Hinckley was sick over the hemorraging of people leaving the church. He told all the missionaries that while we do have 300,000 people joining every year, There are 300,000 leaving every year.

This is an interesting anecdotal report, but I don't believe it accords well with what I think are the most indicative statistics concerning Church growth. Of course, the interpretation of raw membership data is always challenging. That is why I have never considered that data when attempting to assess whether the Church is growing or contracting from year to year. Rather, I have looked at the unit data -- the numbers of wards and stakes. Wards and stakes can't exist without active members to fill the various callings. I think you will agree that this is true, and that therefore the most revealing statistic concerning Church vitality is the increase or decrease in wards and stakes from year to year. And, the simple fact is that the number of wards and stakes has continued to increase, and quite substantially so, over the course of the past decade. So, while I have no doubt there has been a significant increase, in recent years, in the number of people leaving the Church, it is incontrovertible that Church growth is not static, as your report would seem to suggest, but, quite to the contrary, it continues to be quite vibrant.

I have yet to see any apologists take on *REAL* and honest criticisms as say Thomas Riskas, "Deconstructing Mormonism." Granted he shot himself in the foot being so obtuse in the few opening chapters, but his critique is rather overwhelmingly powerful, that is if you can fathom logic.

Interestingly enough, I recently purchased that book, but have not yet read it. I plan to do so sometime soon. I'm not sure if I can "fathom logic," but we'll see how it goes, and I'll let you know what I think afterwards.

1
Daniel Peterson Grand Master

Daniel Peterson

Posted
Posted

God is finite eh? You are, quite frankly, the ONLY Mormon I have EVER heard say and think this Robert.

You haven't been around me much. That's what I say and think, too.

You might enjoy reading David Paulsen's 1975 University of Michigan doctoral dissertation on "The Comparative Coherency of Classical Theism and Mormon Finitism." David recently retired from the Department of Philosophy at BYU and is now serving a mission with his wife in Iceland.

1
volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

You haven't been around me much. That's what I say and think, too.

You might enjoy reading David Paulsen's 1975 University of Michigan doctoral dissertation on "The Comparative Coherency of Classical Theism and Mormon Finitism." David recently retired from the Department of Philosophy at BYU and is now serving a mission with his wife in Iceland.

Who, coincidentally, is mentioned in the Elder Maxwell talk address that I posted for Kerry's benefit.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

Who said BYU department heads are priesthood leaders?

But I'd encourage us all to follow our file leaders as Dr. Hamblin has done.
Who is the file leader you imagine Dr. Hamblin has followed?
powerservice Rookie

powerservice

Posted
Posted

Who is the file leader you imagine Dr. Hamblin has followed?

I won't get into his personal business, I'm not that type of guy.

All I know is what he has posted on his blog which was a blessing for all of us and a true example of discipleship. I wish him the best and can only hope I can follow.

The gospel is simply beautiful and beautifully simple. Sometimes I need to be reminded that God's house is a house of order and I thank Dr. Hamblim for that reminder.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

I won't get into his personal business, I'm not that type of guy.

And all your comments about him so far have not been that "type"?
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

Speaking generically then: Can someone's employer be considered their "file leader" and if so, why?

Tacenda Grand Master

Tacenda

Posted
Posted

Speaking generically then: Can someone's employer be considered their "file leader" and if so, why?

File leader, the soldier at the front of any file, who

covers and leads those in rear of him.

I guess one could call their boss the file leader. I've never heard of it, but by the definition above they are leaders of some sort.

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

I'll follow his example as best I can and thank him for it.

To follow an example, one generally needs to understand what the example is. You keep saying Dr. Hamblin is a great example in following his file leaders, but you don't explain how he is doing so...you won't even identify the file leaders you think he is following so that we can understand how he is following them.

Somehow I get the feeling your purpose is not really about being good examples.

Edited by calmoriah
1
powerservice Rookie

powerservice

Posted
Posted

To follow an example, one generally needs to understand what the example is. You keep saying Dr. Hamblin is a great example in following his file leaders, but you don't explain how he is doing so...you won't even identify the file leaders you think he is following so that we can understand how he is following them.

Somehow I get the feeling your purpose is not really about being good examples.

My purpose is to thank Dr. Hamblin, its an example I personally need.

mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

Speaking generically then: Can someone's employer be considered their "file leader" and if so, why?

If your employer has the power to sack you if you don't do as you are told, and keeping that job is important to you, then I would say that makes him your "file leader" of sorts, whether you like it or not! :)

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

If your employer has the power to sack you if you don't do as you are told, and keeping that job is important to you, then I would say that makes him your "file leader" of sorts, whether you like it or not! :)

powereservice is implying that Dr. Hamblin is being obedient to some file leader along the lines of a church leader, his examples being "my Primary President or my CES supervisor" implying that he is a primary teacher and work in the CES.

However, he has not explained how the dept. head who spoke to Dr. Hamblin is in any way similar to either of these or any other "file leaders" that are described in his quotes.

He is apparently equating the office of Dr. Hamblin's dept. head with having a calling and thus some sort of spiritual authority over Dr. Hamblin:

Such respect for those whom God has called.

Dr. Hamblin teaches and publishes for the BYU history department, his speciality is the Near East. Somehow I doubt that his department head sees himself as his church leader in any fashion.

Edited by calmoriah
volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted (edited)
powereservice is implying that Dr. Hamblin is being obedient to some file leader along the lines of a church leader, his examples being "my Primary President or my CES supervisor" implying that he is a primary teacher and work in the CES.

Perhaps powerservice is a sunbeam...

Edited by volgadon
Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted

You did.

A primary president does not have the priesthood, so it would seem that powerservice does not insist that all "file leaders" have the priesthood, though they are called of God.
volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

That's roughly what I would guess.

Why is anybody paying attention to, and thus gratifying, this obvious troll?

As Charles Napier should have said, but didn't, peccavi.

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