Paid Apologetics?

[Calm]

You did.

All his quotes equate "file leaders" with "priesthood holders", even in the one case that it might not have been a priesthood holder---the husband being the file leader of the wife in Brigham Young's quote, it is still a man. I wonder where powerservice gets the idea that a primary president is therefore a "file leader".

[Scott Lloyd]

That's roughly what I would guess.

Why is anybody paying attention to, and thus gratifying, this obvious troll?

That's what I'm wondering. I spotted powerservice early on as a poser whose only intention is to mock. I think from this point we should give his comments the attention they deserve.

[Calm]

That's roughly what I would guess.

Why is anybody paying attention to, and thus gratifying, this obvious troll?

Sleep deprivation is my excuse.

[Daniel Peterson]

As Charles Napier should have said, but didn't, peccavi.

You have Sind?

[mathonihah]

powereservice is implying that Dr. Hamblin is being obedient to some file leader along the lines of a church leader, his examples being "my Primary President or my CES supervisor" implying that he is a primary teacher and work in the CES.

However, he has not explained how the dept. head who spoke to Dr. Hamblin is in any way similar to either of these or any other "file leaders" that are described in his quotes.

He is apparently equating the office of Dr. Hamblin's dept. head with having a calling and thus some sort of spiritual authority over Dr. Hamblin:

There may be an element of truth in that. BYU is not entirely an independent university. It is owned and operated by the Church. The Church tries to maintain its academic neutrality as much as possible (and successfully); but in other respects it maintains the standards of the Church. Its honor code and observance of the word of wisdom for example reflects the influence of the Church. There is no other university that has that kind of a code.

I recall that when I was at BYU, taking a course in Book of Mormon was mandatory for all students, be they LDS or not. I don't know whether that is still the case; but I am guessing that it still is; in which case it is further reflection of the influence of the Church.

Doing "apologetics" is not just an academic activity. It is not like doing science, or maths, or biology, or astronomy, or Medieval history, or classical languages etc., about which the Church can remain completely neutral. It is something that directly affects the Church. And if it is being done by some organization that is owned by, or is indirectly affiliated with the university, then the Church reserves the right to have some influence on how it is done, or whether it is done at all. So looking at it that way, your departmental heads can at times assume the double role of an ecclesiastical official as well as an academic one.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Who said that man is finite?

At any rate, perhaps you are missing this.

"Restoration correctives provide emancipating perspectives! The revelations, when “pressed down, and shaken together,” emphasize that man is, at once, an intelligence or spirit coeternal—but certainly not coequal—with God (see Abr. 3:18)."

http://www.lds.org/e...query=coeternal

No one has said man is finite, Robert says that God is!

[Calm]

So looking at it that way, your departmental heads can at times assume the double role of an ecclesiastical official as well as an academic one.

And looking at academic robes may lead one to make that assumption as well.

Doesn't mean that assumption is right.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Why have you set up this silly dichotomy that even the scriptures don't support?

Because it's how things are happening in reality on earth - DUH! I'm simply observing the evidence right in front of our eyes Volg....... I've noticed people get hot under the collar when evidence is shown refuting their theologies and testimonies. The scriptures promise God will be here to help out as he *used* to (if the scriptures are telling the truth), but now he is nowhere to be seen.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Hey, Kerry! It's been a while. I've actually given you a call several times when I've been visiting my daughter in Rigby, but I've never been able to connect with you, nor did you return my messages, assuming you ever got them. Maybe sometime in the future. Anyway, I did want to comment on just a couple things you had to say:

This is an interesting anecdotal report, but I don't believe it accords well with what I think are the most indicative statistics concerning Church growth. Of course, the interpretation of raw membership data is always challenging. That is why I have never considered that data when attempting to assess whether the Church is growing or contracting from year to year. Rather, I have looked at the unit data -- the numbers of wards and stakes. Wards and stakes can't exist without active members to fill the various callings. I think you will agree that this is true, and that therefore the most revealing statistic concerning Church vitality is the increase or decrease in wards and stakes from year to year. And, the simple fact is that the number of wards and stakes has continued to increase, and quite substantially so, over the course of the past decade. So, while I have no doubt there has been a significant increase, in recent years, in the number of people leaving the Church, it is incontrovertible that Church growth is not static, as your report would seem to suggest, but, quite to the contrary, it continues to be quite vibrant.

Interestingly enough, I recently purchased that book, but have not yet read it. I plan to do so sometime soon. I'm not sure if I can "fathom logic," but we'll see how it goes, and I'll let you know what I think afterwards.

He tries too hard I think, to be too scholarly in the first couple chapters. His preface just ROCKS though. If you can wade through the first few chapters (they ARE important though!) then the rest systematically, step by step takes you through the issues he has. He brought up several things I had never entertained before. An interesting read.

[mathonihah]

And looking at academic robes may lead one to make that assumption as well.

Doesn't mean that assumption is right.

In either case, the Church is not going to remain neutral on that issue, like it can be about the teaching of geometry or geography. It is a different kind of a ball game.

[volgadon]

Because it's how things are happening in reality on earth - DUH! I'm simply observing the evidence right in front of our eyes Volg....... I've noticed people get hot under the collar when evidence is shown refuting their theologies and testimonies. The scriptures promise God will be here to help out as he *used* to (if the scriptures are telling the truth), but now he is nowhere to be seen.

You missed the point again. The scriptures don't hold that because God intervenes his followers do nothing, or that if his followers do something it means that he doesn't intervene.

[emarkp]

The scriptures promise God will be here to help out as he *used* to (if the scriptures are telling the truth), but now he is nowhere to be seen.

Something that might be a fun topic for another thread: given the biblical history as a record of God's society-impacting interventions over several millenia, what is the probability of such an intervention in the current year? Current decade?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Something that might be a fun topic for another thread: given the biblical history as a record of God's society-impacting interventions over several millenia, what is the probability of such an intervention in the current year? Current decade?

Actually, one of the Biblical scholars, Richard Elliott Friedman has written a book on this, "The Disappearance of God." I haven't read it yet because I got so darn interested in studying reality as it really is with physics and mathematics.

[Robert F. Smith]

Actually, one of the Biblical scholars, Richard Elliott Friedman has written a book on this, "The Disappearance of God." I haven't read it yet because I got so darn interested in studying reality as it really is with physics and mathematics.

Excellent subjects for study, Kerry. Glad to hear of it.

[Robert F. Smith]

Because it's how things are happening in reality on earth - DUH! I'm simply observing the evidence right in front of our eyes Volg....... I've noticed people get hot under the collar when evidence is shown refuting their theologies and testimonies. The scriptures promise God will be here to help out as he *used* to (if the scriptures are telling the truth), but now he is nowhere to be seen.

Some people also get hot under the collar when wild fancies are substituted for fact, when ideology is substituted for reality. Talk is cheap, Kerry. Reality doesn't play favorites, and standing and delivering in a real class on hard academic subject matter is where the rubber meets the road. If you can do that, you'll find it much easier to carry on meaningful conversations -- even with your presumed enemies.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Some people also get hot under the collar when wild fancies are substituted for fact, when ideology is substituted for reality. Talk is cheap, Kerry. Reality doesn't play favorites, and standing and delivering in a real class on hard academic subject matter is where the rubber meets the road. If you can do that, you'll find it much easier to carry on meaningful conversations -- even with your presumed enemies.

I truly, sincerely hope that you do not assume that I view anyone here as an enemy of mine. I promise, I hold no grudges nor keep hit lists as it were on people who disagree with me. I understand even my own views change as more and better information becomes available. Because I disagree with anyone does not mean I think them an enemy. I promise.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Some people also get hot under the collar when wild fancies are substituted for fact, when ideology is substituted for reality. Talk is cheap, Kerry. Reality doesn't play favorites, and standing and delivering in a real class on hard academic subject matter is where the rubber meets the road. If you can do that, you'll find it much easier to carry on meaningful conversations -- even with your presumed enemies.

Yes, this has exactly been my experience at this point with Mormonism. Reality has FINALLY bonked me on the head about so much of it, and it isn't favoring Mormonism for me. It's an interesting twist as I work through things and come to try to have some understanding about "reality" as opposed to the mythology I have been studying for all these decades. It IS an eye opening experience without question.

[volgadon]

I truly, sincerely hope that you do not assume that I view anyone here as an enemy of mine. I promise, I hold no grudges nor keep hit lists as it were on people who disagree with me. I understand even my own views change as more and better information becomes available. Because I disagree with anyone does not mean I think them an enemy. I promise.

Fair enough.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Excellent subjects for study, Kerry. Glad to hear of it.

Thanks. I am fascinated that after all these years of thinking it was beyond me that it isn't. I actually am making decent progress in understanding a ton of Algebra, Trigonometry, and Calculus that I never before even imagined existed. That I can actually comprehend taking derivatives and now know in a minor way how to do so, or to integrate the areas under curves is truly totally THRILLING to me to finally be learning the math I always wanted to. I am deeply impressed and this is growing daily at the ways and how much mathematics jives with physics in describing our world and how it works, our universe and how it works. Physical reality is truly the most amazing teacher we have in this life, and it is a delight for me to be learning it's language and science. I am ***SERIOUSLY*** impressed with the pure genius of so many of the mathematicians as they demonstrated and proved how the formulas are correct and how it advances our understanding of the world and universe. It is utterly breath taking how fabulous and helpful these formulas are turning out to be, and I am only a few months into it! I have been told that the more I learn in Calculus the more amazed I will be at this "gift from God" to us.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Fair enough.

Thank you for that Volg.

[volgadon]

Thanks. I am fascinated that after all these years of thinking it was beyond me that it isn't. I actually am making decent progress in understanding a ton of Algebra, Trigonometry, and Calculus that I never before even imagined existed. That I can actually comprehend taking derivatives and now know in a minor way how to do so, or to integrate the areas under curves is truly totally THRILLING to me to finally be learning the math I always wanted to. I am deeply impressed and this is growing daily at the ways and how much mathematics jives with physics in describing our world and how it works, our universe and how it works. Physical reality is truly the most amazing teacher we have in this life, and it is a delight for me to be learning it's language and science. I am ***SERIOUSLY*** impressed with the pure genius of so many of the mathematicians as they demonstrated and proved how the formulas are correct and how it advances our understanding of the world and universe. It is utterly breath taking how fabulous and helpful these formulas are turning out to be, and I am only a few months into it! I have been told that the more I learn in Calculus the more amazed I will be at this "gift from God" to us.

Ha, I knew that deep down you were actually Pythagorean.

[Calm]

Thanks. I am fascinated that after all these years of thinking it was beyond me that it isn't. I actually am making decent progress in understanding a ton of Algebra, Trigonometry, and Calculus that I never before even imagined existed. That I can actually comprehend taking derivatives and now know in a minor way how to do so, or to integrate the areas under curves is truly totally THRILLING to me to finally be learning the math I always wanted to. I am deeply impressed and this is growing daily at the ways and how much mathematics jives with physics in describing our world and how it works, our universe and how it works. Physical reality is truly the most amazing teacher we have in this life, and it is a delight for me to be learning it's language and science. I am ***SERIOUSLY*** impressed with the pure genius of so many of the mathematicians as they demonstrated and proved how the formulas are correct and how it advances our understanding of the world and universe. It is utterly breath taking how fabulous and helpful these formulas are turning out to be, and I am only a few months into it! I have been told that the more I learn in Calculus the more amazed I will be at this "gift from God" to us.

Math is a beautiful thing.....

[volgadon]

I must lodge a formal protest.

[Calm]

Just for you, volg:

[volgadon]

Just for you, volg:

MY HEAD HURTS...