Breast Feeding In Church?

[canard78]

Deleted unhelpful comment

Edited February 27, 2013 by canard78

[Yep]

If a woman is parading a bare breast around the chapel then I guess the Bishop might need to have a word. The truth is that a woman can easily breastfeed where she's sat in the pew with next to nothing on display.

I'm glad a nursing room is an option, but it's by no means a requirement. There is no violation of temple covenants by breastfeeding. Just like there's no violation of covenants at the beach or pool.

Exactly, I'm the oldest of nearly a dozen, and I never saw even the smallest amount of my mother's breast in all the years that she breastfed. She never left the Chapel, and no one ever saw anything. Even given this, she recieved complaints a few times. Breastfeeding does not require exposure to the public.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Yep

[Bernard Gui]

Modesty does not derive from shame, but from charity.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[ERayR]

Then perhaps you do not understand that the 'West' in Western culture is specifically Europe? From the OED: 'West: The western part of the world, esp. Europe (later also North America) as distinguished from Asia; the culture and civilization of these regions'.

It matters not it is still not the center of my culture no matter what prominence some have assigned it.

[canard78]

Modesty does not derive from shame, but from charity.

Chastity and pure thoughts do derive from another's modesty but the individual's own integrity.

If we make a teenage boy's ability to have clean thoughts dependent on another's modesty then we have lost. There is far more immodesty, instantly accessible, than a breastfeeding mother in sacrament.

We don't solve obesity by shutting all the burger bars.

The dieter who loses weight with a lock on the fridge hasn't really 'won'

The person who embraces healthy eating and leaves the chocolate cake in the fridge and reaches for the salad is the true winner.

If I become immoral, I can only blame me.

[TAO]

We can't help but look. However it is inappropriate to stare.

Undoubtedly. But the look is all it takes, nah?

[Wanderer7]

I wonder if the issue at hand is really the breastfeeding or the feeling by some that they are being discriminated against. I agree that culturally women have probably been disfavored in the church, though less so than most other groups of women. However, is it appropriate for feminist groups to write the First Presidency about the issue when the local leaders have already given their voice on the matter?

[TAO]

Here's a clue... McD DO sell carrot sticks. People are still obese. Problem not solved.

I never said that it'd solve the problem. I said that allowing it would make the problem worse. If McD stops selling carrot sticks, people WILL get more unhealthy.

That's the problem of the 'looker' not the mother.

Well, if you don't want to show courtesy to accidental lookers, I suppose so.

It bothers me that women are told to not be "walking porn" for the young men. Wrong message. Boys, don't look, problem solved.

Boys ARE told that. Unfortunately, not looking is a lot more difficult than that. Furthermore, it's more than not looking, it's not catching any glances. That means you have to know where people are doing things BEFORE you look.

I once saw a breastfeeding mother? Oh dear... I shall go and hand in my TR. Entirely not an issue.

You really don't get what I'm getting at.

Let's take a person who is addicted to pornography (or any other sexual addiction, like masturbation). As you know, in order to get over addictions, one has to avoid triggers. One of the best places to avoid triggers is church because people where modest clothes and have good language, preventing large amounts of triggers from bothering that person. Now let's take a look at breastfeeding. It is not intended as a sexual act. But it acts as a trigger for the person who is addicted to pornography, sending swarms of images that they wishes to keep locked up to their head, and ruining the sanctified enviroment they think church is.

Do you sort of get what I mean? While it may not be nice to create restrictions, these restrictions prove helpful in some rather common case scenarios.

In some ways, having breastfeeding in plain site is a good way of reminding these poor helpless teenage hornbags that there are other uses for such parts of the anatomy.

Now your getting ridiculous. Do you think most church teens are unaware of breastfeeding? They most certainly are. But that doesn't change the fact that you are putting such things in their head.

Being prudish and making the female body 'sinful' only makes it more intriguing.

You don't get it. It's not the female body that is sinful. It's lusting after it that is sinful. I'd prefer not to trigger the thoughts of young men.

I'm glad, for example, that my children have grown up in a house with an 'open bathroom door' policy. They are very familiar with the adult body which, I hope, will mean as they progress into teens it will be less of a 'forbidden fruit' and not feel a need to gawp at some poor breastfeeding mother trying to do one of the most natural things in the world.

I'd guess most people who have problems don't have problems becasue it's forbidden fruit.

[TAO]

If a woman is parading a bare breast around the chapel then I guess the Bishop might need to have a word. The truth is that a woman can easily breastfeed where she's sat in the pew with next to nothing on display.

Canard, most people don't have a problem if there is next to nothing to display. What we have a problem with is when they actually DO display it.

I'm glad a nursing room is an option, but it's by no means a requirement. There is no violation of temple covenants by breastfeeding. Just like there's no violation of covenants at the beach or pool.

Of course there's no covenant violation.

[TAO]

Chastity and pure thoughts do derive from another's modesty but the individual's own integrity.

I'll digress. Your enviroment play a HUGE effect on your pure thoughts.

If we make a teenage boy's ability to have clean thoughts dependent on another's modesty then we have lost. There is far more immodesty, instantly accessible, than a breastfeeding mother in sacrament.

We have to go to church to partake in sacrament. It's unavoidable if we want to keep our covenants. How many other events do you have which are unavoidable which cause you to be exposed to female parts to that degree.

We don't solve obesity by shutting all the burger bars.

But the dieter may be able to avoid burger bars by taking a different way home from work. We can't avoid sacrament.

The dieter who loses weight with a lock on the fridge hasn't really 'won'

Yes they have. They are smart enough to put a physical constraint in case their willpower one fails. Eventually, they hope to do it solely based off of willpower, but until then, a physical constraint will do.

The person who embraces healthy eating and leaves the chocolate cake in the fridge and reaches for the salad is the true winner.

But the person who also avoids the chocolate cake by asking their spouse not to bring it in the house is also a winner. Just in a different way.

If I become immoral, I can only blame me.

Yes, you can only blame you. Still, others can contribute a major effect to helping you become moral. Call it... good influences, and a good enviorment.

[Maidservant]

Umm...can I get a CFR that the garment is just a token and not sacred clothing?

Not of malice, but curiosity.

Also...even if it is the case that the body is the sacred clothing...and the garment is a token...then God them a token piece of clothing to cover up their sacred clothing.

And so are we commanded to cover up our sacred clothing with token clothing.

Well, this is a huge tangent so if you want to pursue it, we should probably open another thread. Where I learned this is in the temple endowment itself. But I will try to look for more on this, if anyone else has spoken on it before; I'm curious myself. The entire temple endowment is a token, a symbol for other reality--it's not the reality itself. And I should mention that I personally don't consider Adam and Eve to be individual, historical people, nor do I think the temple or scriptures (ancient ones) to say that they are individual people; rather, the text indicates the opposite, as I understand it. Also another thread. But I disclose that, because if a person says "they are given clothing [garment] to cover up their clothing [body]", you are right, it doesn't make sense to think of it like that. It only makes sense if YOU are Adam or Eve and you are brought to the point where you receive your priesthood garment. Which, it's not a piece of clothing--it's your body. Because the pageant of the temple is a symbol of the ACTUAL process of life--with YOU.

And I didn't say that the garment is "just" a token--that's your context. A token is not "just". I also didn't say that the (token) garment isn't sacred. It is, at least for us right now as it is given. But it is a sign for for the sacred priesthood garment of our body. So that when we go through the process of the endowment, we actually can have unlocked to us the process of life--receive knowledge on it's purpose and progress.

Let's continue this in another thread. It's a fascinating subject. But I will see if I can find more on it, because I'd like to know also.

It bothers me that women are told to not be "walking porn" for the young men.

We just had a "standards night" that went exactly like that, that was given by a sister that I otherwise love to death. I just sat there and FRIED listening to all the dangerous memes that came out of her mouth and that my 16 year old daughter was being exposed to. I wanted to put my hands over her ears and march her out of there, but I'm not much of an activist, so all I did was discuss with my daughter afterwards and share with her what I believed to be right.

[canard78]

TAO, I'm not going to reply to every point in all three of your posts, but I think there was a general theme that the woman should leave the chapel to breastfeed, just in case a bit of her breast is shown, out of consideration for the deacon who might happen to pass her pew while passing the sacrament.

I disagree, and I've already made all the points of why, I don't really want to rehash every one. The reality is, there is nothing on show and it's highly unlikely that anything is seen. A woman's calves, ankles, kneck or even a fully clothed attractive woman can be a trigger. Should we ask all of the women to stay in the lobby for the sake of the Deacon who should in reality be taught that all his feelings and attractions are entirely natural and positive and should be embraced, but in anticipation.

Learning to control thoughts is one of the greatest skills any person can embrace. It is a skill needed not just for the deacon, but for all people. If we put the emphasis on the breastfeeding woman being hidden, we are teaching the more important skill of how to react as a man. Because there will be far more to see and act as a trigger.

But thank you for your comment about McDs and carrott sticks. It made me properly laugh (not just 'lol'). The idea that the world became a healthier place when McDs started selling carrot sticks is really quite amusing. The only reason McD started selling carrot sticks is not so that people would switch from a burger and fries to a burger and carrot sticks, but so that people who usually buy a salad from somewhere else will come in and buy a McDs salad (which isn't actually very healthy).

[canard78]

We just had a "standards night" that went exactly like that, that was given by a sister that I otherwise love to death. I just sat there and FRIED listening to all the dangerous memes that came out of her mouth and that my 16 year old daughter was being exposed to. I wanted to put my hands over her ears and march her out of there, but I'm not much of an activist, so all I did was discuss with my daughter afterwards and share with her what I believed to be right.

It's a shame when our children are taught false doctrine.

I admire your self-control. I hope I could show the same in such a situation. I'm glad you spoke with her later. It's such a negative approach to teaching teens.

[Kenngo1969]

I may have told this story before but I just have to tell it again because every time there is a discussion on breastfeeding it comes to mind.

I was a missionary in Argentina sitting on the second row of a rented building where we met for church. The room was packed and a young sister was up front teaching a lesson.Her new baby was being held by another sister (her visiting teaching companion as a matter of fact). These were both sweet women whom I adored. The teacher was a first time mom. Her friend and vt companion had five children and was still nursing the youngest, a chubby, gleeful toddler. The teacher was as middle to upper class as you could be in that time and place. The older companion worked a farm with her husband's family. They were women from two different backgrounds and two different segments of society. One had pale skin. obviously of European descent. The other was darker, her people have crossed over the northern border a generation or two before.

As the young teacher taught, her baby began to wail. It was that hungry cry that newborns make. She looked perplexed for a few seconds and struggled not knowing how to respond.

Suddenly, her visiting teaching companion, pulled out her breast and started to feed the baby. No one in the room even flinched and the teacher relaxed, regained composure and continued without missing another beat.

It was a beautiful act of tenderness and sisterhood that gave me a glimpse at Zion. I never see a nursing mother that I don't remember our duty to care for each other and to build the kind of unity I saw that day.

MnG FTW!

[ERayR]

My view: Breast feeding is generally not immodest. Revealing clothing generally is. The difference being the intent of the exposure.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think you are talking about the doctrine, and I'm talking about the culture.

No, I'm talking about both. And the examples you chose to share rest upon a foundation of worldly and culturally bound (specifically Western) expectations.

[Hamba Tuhan]

It matters not it is still not the center of my culture no matter what prominence some have assigned it.

And that's fine -- I feel the same way -- but then your culture is distinctly not 'Western culture' as defined: the culture of Europe and Europe's former settler colonies.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Any modesty that is less than fitting the garment is not appropriate for the LDS.

This has to be one of the oddest ideas I've ever encountered. Do you honestly believe that any unendowed person -- whether child or adult -- who wears anything whatsoever that wouldn't 100% cover the garment is 'immodest'? Do you likewise believe that an endowed man or woman who wears a bathing costume or plays on a sporting team is likewise being immodest?

IMO we as LDS do not always seem to understand this and we often disregard the guidance of the garment.

I could be wrong, but I would respectfully suggest that this 'misunderstanding' and disregard may be due to the fact that Church leaders simply haven't taught us these principles. In fact, as pointed out already, Church-owned institutions don't seem to have got this memo, either, with sportsmen at these institutions still publicly competing in, for example, shorts. And singlets. And probably swimming in less.

Due to this, It is my opinion that a man should not be bare chested either.

Interesting. For all these years, I thought our former stake YM president was the only LDS on the planet who'd ever reached this conclusion, but apparently he's not alone. Of course, he's also the man who forbade his daughters to wear jeans because the illustrations in the dress and grooming section of the old For the Strength of Youth booklet didn't happen to show any females in jeans. Not sure what's happened in his head since the new booklet has come out with different illustrations, but his daughters are all grown and out of the home now (they tended to move out very quickly) ... and quite possibly wearing jeans and one-piece bathing costumes.

[Hamba Tuhan]

We just had a "standards night" that went exactly like that, that was given by a sister that I otherwise love to death. I just sat there and FRIED listening to all the dangerous memes that came out of her mouth and that my 16 year old daughter was being exposed to.

We had our stake standards night this past Sunday, and it was so boring that I kept nodding off. I was a bit annoyed, but clearly it could have gone in a direction that would have annoyed me even more, so thanks for making me feel better. By the way, the boys in my car got my own personal 'standards night' on the drive home. I want them to understand and live what's in FTSOY.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Avatar4321]

Seems to me is that people are trying to create controversy for whatever reason.

[Hamba Tuhan]

From the Seagull Monument on Temple Square:

Edited February 28, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[MorningStar]

They should sculpt a blanket to go over that baby's head.

[TAO]

TAO, I'm not going to reply to every point in all three of your posts, but I think there was a general theme that the woman should leave the chapel to breastfeed, just in case a bit of her breast is shown, out of consideration for the deacon who might happen to pass her pew while passing the sacrament.

Correct. That was sort of what I was suggesting, in a sense.

I disagree, and I've already made all the points of why, I don't really want to rehash every one. The reality is, there is nothing on show and it's highly unlikely that anything is seen.

I already told you, if nothing is to be seen, I have no problems with it. I have problems when things CAN be seen.

A woman's calves, ankles, kneck or even a fully clothed attractive woman can be a trigger.

Definately possible, but not likely. Why? Because society doesn't sexualize (and thus doesn't mention very often) a woman's calves, ankles, or neck.

Should we ask all of the women to stay in the lobby for the sake of the Deacon who should in reality be taught that all his feelings and attractions are entirely natural and positive and should be embraced, but in anticipation.

If you read my post, you'll realize I'm not only talking about the youth. I also mentioned people who have sex-related addictions (chances are there are a few in your ward).

Learning to control thoughts is one of the greatest skills any person can embrace.

But it doesn't happen in an instant. In fact, it takes an incredibly long time. It took me six years to learn to control my thoughts to the degree that I have now. And it's by no means perfect.

It is a skill needed not just for the deacon, but for all people. If we put the emphasis on the breastfeeding woman being hidden, we are teaching the more important skill of how to react as a man.

Of course it is. But people with these sort of addicitons aren't going to be able to control their feelings with the snap of a finger. You sort of expect it to be 'tada done'. It's not like that. It's not like that at all. You have no idea how hard it is for people to quit addictions. Because as much as actions are a problem, thoughts are even worse. You get bombarded everywhere you go. It's not easy to control your thoughts.

Because there will be far more to see and act as a trigger.

There may be other things out there that cause a trigger, but this is a very strong one.

But thank you for your comment about McDs and carrott sticks. It made me properly laugh (not just 'lol'). The idea that the world became a healthier place when McDs started selling carrot sticks is really quite amusing. The only reason McD started selling carrot sticks is not so that people would switch from a burger and fries to a burger and carrot sticks, but so that people who usually buy a salad from somewhere else will come in and buy a McDs salad (which isn't actually very healthy).

Okay.

[MorningStar]

My husband just asked me if I would breastfeed in front of his old roommate (who is a pervert). Oh yeah. Good point. No, I would not. Guess you never know when someone like him is lurking.

I curse ruiners like him.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I feel that the male torso as often shown in television, movies and other media is most frequently equivalent to porn.

Sadly, the Church seems to be a major producer and distributor of this kind of 'porn':