Accepting Responsibility

[EllenMaksoud]

I think we all believe that when he headed for the Carthage Jail, our Prophet Joseph Smith Jr knew he would not live. Jesus Christ knew that when he was at the end. Yet both of them faced the future, perhaphs not without fear, but with courage. There were no excuses, pleadings, or blaming. They simply faced the future knowing that Heavenly Father was in control of our lives.

Today, I heard two things that shocked me. I did not ever expect a government to accept responsibilty for its actions. The government of Southern Ireland today apologised to the 30,000 women who were enslaved by the Catholic Church there. 10,000 are still living and will recieve reparations unspecified. The offense perhaps started innocently. Young girls who were deemed a risk of becoming pregnant or otherwise besmirching the family reputation were put to work in Magdalene Laundries; most for the remainder of their lives. The whole operation was administered by Nuns. This continued until 1996. Today, the Irish government finally took responsibility and apologised for this travestly.

Later today, the government of the UK also submitted an apology to the people of India for their actions during British colonialisim, ending with the partitioning of India into the state of Pakistan and Bangladesh. I know a young woman, born in the UK of Punjabi parents who insists that Colonial interference in the lives of the Indian people created misery there.

I do not know if the government of America has ever apologised to the American Indian for what they did to them. We should have if we have not.

I feel profoundly sad that such deeds were committed. Surely Napoleon or Ghengis Khan never felt the need. Perhaps it is a mark of maturity and responsibility to make such moves as little good as they do.

In our own personal lives some of us will and have committed grievious offenses against others. When we apologise there are times when our overatures are not accepted. Thankfully Jesus Christ died for our offenses to Heavenly Father and we are forgiven.

[Tacenda]

Love your post, did not know about those Governments apologising like that! How refreshing, I hope America will do the same one day. And we in our personal lives do the same, it could have a profound affect on so many lives!

[Stargazer]

There is no government upon the face of the earth that has not made mistakes. Given that people are imperfect, how could it be otherwise? Every government has something to apologize for. Every government will continue to do things that they should apologize for. We can perhaps apologize to the American Indians for their mistreatment, and in fact this has been done, and continues to be done. I once got a check as part of the ongoing apologies, being partly Indian.

The Brits did bad things in India, as well as good things. But they weren't the first. Tamerlane, from the area of today's Uzbekistan, invaded India in 1398 and killed hudreds of thousands, both in battle and in pre- and post-battle massacres. Should the Uzbeks therefore apologize to India? I suppose not; they had no control of what happened 600 years previously. On the other hand, since Ireland's involvement with those Magdalene places is so recent, and since many of the victims still live, an apology is probably in order.

[altersteve]

Accepting responsibility for our actions, situations, strengths, and weaknesses is, in my opinion, of the highest importance if we ever want to find success in literally any facet of our lives, and that's probably the one lesson that we must learn before any other if we want to be happy in our time here on earth. The famous line from Spider-Man, "With great power comes great responsibility," resonates so powerfully with me, because there's so much truth and meaning in that one simple sentence.

Edited February 21, 2013 by altersteve

[Alan]

I thought I had read somewhere that the State of Illinois had apologised (or expressed regret, which is not quite the same thing) for the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum while under their protection.

[rongo]

This is largely symbolic, but the governor of Missouri "revoked" the Extermination Order by executive order in 1976:

Illinois' apology was reported in 2004:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/national/08APOL.html

[Freedom]

It admirable to apologize but what about paying reparations? Should my tax dollars have to go to compensate a group of people who's ancestors were mistreated? Could it be compared to me having to apologize for the actions of someone who lived in my house before me? Should the Italian government apologize to Egypt for the barbaric actions of the Roman Empire? I can understand if those who were affected were still alive but otherwise, it seems to be playing politics. Acknowledge that it occurred have it taught in the schools, but I cannot apologize for something my mother or my brother may have done.

[bluebell]

It admirable to apologize but what about paying reparations? Should my tax dollars have to go to compensate a group of people who's ancestors were mistreated? Could it be compared to me having to apologize for the actions of someone who lived in my house before me? Should the Italian government apologize to Egypt for the barbaric actions of the Roman Empire? I can understand if those who were affected were still alive but otherwise, it seems to be playing politics. Acknowledge that it occurred have it taught in the schools, but I cannot apologize for something my mother or my brother may have done.

I think it depends a lot on the issue of who's authority the person apologizing is speaking for (and if they have the right to do so in the first place).

What I mean is, if your mother or brother did something horrible as a representative of your family and used your family's authority to grant them the right to do it, then it makes sense if someone, even much later, who also has the authority to represent the family, apologizes for the evils done in their family's name.

Likewise, i can understand why a president of the U.S. might feel it's appropriate for him to apologize to Native Americans, in the name of the United States, for evils done to them under the authority of the United States and might feel it's appropriate for the United States to make ammends somehow for that evil, even though no one presently living had allowed it to occur.

But a president of Italy has no authority to speak for the Roman empire for example, and the Roman empire did no evil in the name of Italy or under Italy's authority, so it wouldn't make as much sense for such a president to attempt to apologize for evils done by Romans, just because the two countries have occupied the same land and some common ancestors remain between them-if that makes sense.

[wenglund]

Seeking and giving group apologies can be a good thing if it is timely, offered by those responsible for the actions that warrant an apology, and genuinely affects meaningful progress. It isn't when used as a stick to beat people over the head with, or to subtly manipulate to gain political advantage, or as a means of solidifying political correctness.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[EllenMaksoud]

It admirable to apologize but what about paying reparations? Should my tax dollars have to go to compensate a group of people who's ancestors were mistreated? Could it be compared to me having to apologize for the actions of someone who lived in my house before me? Should the Italian government apologize to Egypt for the barbaric actions of the Roman Empire? I can understand if those who were affected were still alive but otherwise, it seems to be playing politics. Acknowledge that it occurred have it taught in the schools, but I cannot apologize for something my mother or my brother may have done.

In Ireland, the women who will receive reparations are the victims that still live. I do not know their age range, but some of them could be 30 or less. I simply can not imagine the impact on the psychology of a woman subjected to such cruel practice. I imagine that there have been similar travesties in most areas of the world, including the US and Canada. Some people have horrific childhoods, but an entire life time is completely unimaginable.

These women not only worked in Magdalene Laundries, but a Welsh friend of mine said that the work in the laundries was only the tip of it.

[Tacenda]

Did the US ever apologise officially the Nuclear Bomb testing in the Nevada desert? There was a rumor years ago that they tested elementary children by putting something in their orange juice everyday. I was one of them, everyday for a year or more, can't recall, they'd bring a tray of cups of OJ that they'd have us drink. Is this just conspiracy thinking gone bad?

[Freedom]

I understand the concept of proper authority, but even that can become a stretch. I am mostly playing devils advocate and am not suggesting apologies are never necessary, but should Obama be required to apologize for decisions made by the Bush administration I suppose the danger is if the apology also brings with it the baggage of responsibility. As Wade said, if it is offered to those affected than it would be appropriate but otherwise it is generally offered as PR. I think the example of Missouri.

I get a bit tired of groups demanding reparations for harms that were perpetrated well before they were born. I recall a young Japanese man on the radio demanding reparations for harms committed to his grandfather in British Columbia during WW2. An elderly Japanese man called in and asked if the harms perpetrated against his grandfather were greater than the harms perpetrated against Canadian soldiers by the Japanese army. This Japanese man's wife was killed during the war by his own people while serving as a nurse for the Canadian army in the Asian theater. He argued that we have moved on and bringing up the past will benefit nobody. He lost his wife and his livelihood. He got back his livelihood but he never got back his wife.

[ERayR]

Did the US ever apologise officially the Nuclear Bomb testing in the Nevada desert? There was a rumor years ago that they tested elementary children by putting something in their orange juice everyday. I was one of them, everyday for a year or more, can't recall, they'd bring a tray of cups of OJ that they'd have us drink. Is this just conspiracy thinking gone bad?

From what I can find the answer is yes it is conspiracy thinking gone bad.

[Mark Beesley]

There is no government upon the face of the earth that has not made mistakes. Given that people are imperfect, how could it be otherwise? Every government has something to apologize for.

Tell that to Mitt Romney.

[3DOP]

Today, I heard two things that shocked me. I did not ever expect a government to accept responsibilty for its actions. The government of Southern Ireland today apologised to the 30,000 women who were enslaved by the Catholic Church there.

With two minutes of effort regarding a subject of which I have never heard, I learn that in the 18th Century, both Protestant and Catholic programs were developed in both Europe and America that sought to help women who found themselves enslaved by prostitution by giving them shelter and a way to support their community shelters. The Catholic institutions were called Magdalen Laundries while the Protestants used the term Bethany Laundries. There has been a great deal written alleging that over the course of two centuries, the Irish institution, which was primarily Catholic, finally became corrupt and lost its vision for reform of wayward girls and became a cheap source of income for a cruddy group of Catholic nuns, who have little resemblance to the good sisters who began the work with good and loving hearts.

I guess I just don't quite get how the Catholic Church gets to be convicted of guilt for this even if all of the allegations are true. In what way is the use of slave labor compatible with the teachings of the Catholic faith? Has there been any incriminating evidence showing that Rome has been encouraging the slavery? Do the sisters, like some Nazi death camp guard, blame higher authorities saying they were carrying out commands that came from above? Did the Irish bishops knowingly support what they knew had become slavery, or did they still think it was a reform oriented institution? These seem like necessary questions to answer before we accuse the Catholic Church of complicity in this.

It seems to me that in a thread calling for responsibility, we ought to be careful to avoid allowing the evils of a handful to besmirch the reputations of billions of anti-slavery Catholics, including every pope since the 18th Century who I am confident never secretly or publicly promoted slave labor. I am sorry if corrupted and hateful Catholic sisters denied their faith and became associated with slavery. But I am skeptical about whether the charge can be reasonably aimed at the Catholic Church.

Edited February 21, 2013 by 3DOP

[EllenMaksoud]

With two minutes of effort regarding a subject of which I have never heard, I learn that in the 18th Century, both Protestant and Catholic programs were developed in both Europe and America that sought to help women who found themselves enslaved by prostitution by giving them shelter and a way to support their community shelters. The Catholic institutions were called Magdalen Laundries while the Protestants used the term Bethany Laundries. There has been a great deal written alleging that over the course of two centuries, the Irish institution, which was primarily Catholic, finally became corrupt and lost its vision for reform of wayward girls and became a cheap source of income for a cruddy group of Catholic nuns, who have little resemblance to the good sisters who began the work with good and loving hearts.

I guess I just don't quite get how the Catholic Church gets to be convicted of guilt for this even if all of the allegations are true. In what way is the use of slave labor compatible with the teachings of the Catholic faith? Has there been any incriminating evidence showing that Rome has been encouraging the slavery? Do the sisters, like some Nazi death camp guard, blame higher authorities saying they were carrying out commands that came from above? Did the Irish bishops knowingly support what they knew had become slavery, or did they still think it was a reform oriented institution? These seem like necessary questions to answer before we accuse the Catholic Church of complicity in this.

It seems to me that in a thread calling for responsibility, we ought to be careful to avoid allowing the evils of a handful to besmirch the reputations of billions of anti-slavery Catholics, including every pope since the 18th Century who I am confident never secretly or publicly promoted slave labor. I am sorry if corrupted and hateful Catholic sisters denied their faith and became associated with slavery. But I am skeptical about whether the charge can be reasonably aimed at the Catholic Church.

Yes, well I got most of my information from a man that lives there.

[3DOP]

Yes, well I got most of my information from a man that lives there.

Hi Ellen.

You would be responsible for repeating what "a man that lives there" told you, are you not? It seems difficult to discern from your answer if you are distancing yourself from "a man that lives there" or citing him as an authority on the Catholic Church's policy of enslavement.

Do you think I could not find another "man that lives there" who disagrees with the other "man that lives there"? Maybe another "man that lives there" thinks something terrible about your church?

Considering the subject of the thread, it seems like you either need to make some defense of why "a man that lives there" is necessarily correct, or make an apology for wrongfully accusing my church of a most grievous sin and crime.

3DOP

[EllenMaksoud]

Hi Ellen.

You would be responsible for repeating what "a man that lives there" told you, are you not? It seems difficult to discern from your answer if you are distancing yourself from "a man that lives there" or citing him as an authority on the Catholic Church's policy of enslavement.

Do you think I could not find another "man that lives there" who disagrees with the other "man that lives there"? Maybe another "man that lives there" thinks something terrible about your church?

Considering the subject of the thread, it seems like you either need to make some defense of why "a man that lives there" is necessarily correct, or make an apology for wrongfully accusing my church of a most grievous sin and crime.

3DOP

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/19/ireland-apologises-slave-labour-magdalene-laundries

[Stargazer]

Tell that to Mitt Romney.

Ha ha. I read the book, yes. I know where he was coming from, and it was not dealing with apologizing for wrongdoing, it was dealing with apologizing for rightdoing.

The book is what brought me over to his side in the election. Before it, I was like, "anyone but Romney."

Oh, well, I guess that's politics.

Now back to your regualrly scheduled apologies.

[Stargazer]

Hi Ellen.

You would be responsible for repeating what "a man that lives there" told you, are you not? It seems difficult to discern from your answer if you are distancing yourself from "a man that lives there" or citing him as an authority on the Catholic Church's policy of enslavement.

Do you think I could not find another "man that lives there" who disagrees with the other "man that lives there"? Maybe another "man that lives there" thinks something terrible about your church?

Considering the subject of the thread, it seems like you either need to make some defense of why "a man that lives there" is necessarily correct, or make an apology for wrongfully accusing my church of a most grievous sin and crime.

3DOP

This matter has been all over the regular news sources. It is not just something Ellen heard from someone over there.

And I agree with you that there should be no assumption that the Catholic Church is guilty with the perpetrators. At most, the RCC might be guilty of failing to provide proper oversight. And there is probably other organizations who can share in the blame, too. It was not just a corrupt group of nuns who were doing this. There would have been others who looked the other way because they were benefitting as well.

[3DOP]

This matter has been all over the regular news sources. It is not just something Ellen heard from someone over there.

And I agree with you that there should be no assumption that the Catholic Church is guilty with the perpetrators. At most, the RCC might be guilty of failing to provide proper oversight. And there is probably other organizations who can share in the blame, too. It was not just a corrupt group of nuns who were doing this. There would have been others who looked the other way because they were benefitting as well.

Thanks Stargazer.

In regard to credible sources, if you will see the reply to my first complaint, Ellen Maksoud cited "a man that lives there"! Was I supposed to let that go? If I find some anti-LDS source whether it is in the media or a private party, I can't repeat public accusations and be free from responsibility for what I say.

Anyway, I don't appreciate or believe that "...30,000 women...were enslaved by the Catholic Church there," as she still apparently affirms. You could insert LDS for Catholic and I would be saying the same thing Stargazer.

I am not trying to make her grovel. But I will not allow that the Catholic Church is clearly convicted of complicity in some slavery scheme. I would be satisfied if Ellen Maksoud would retract her former charge and substitute what you say: "At most, the RCC might be guilty of failing to provide proper oversight." Thanks again.

3DOP

Edited February 22, 2013 by 3DOP

[EllenMaksoud]

This matter has been all over the regular news sources. It is not just something Ellen heard from someone over there.

And I agree with you that there should be no assumption that the Catholic Church is guilty with the perpetrators. At most, the RCC might be guilty of failing to provide proper oversight. And there is probably other organizations who can share in the blame, too. It was not just a corrupt group of nuns who were doing this. There would have been others who looked the other way because they were benefitting as well.

These sorts of matters are very sensitive to me. My friend in Wales was put in care at age 6 and was in Borstel at age 12. His offense at "AGE 6" was wearing his sisters dress! Age 6 mind you. I spent time in Juvi when I was 12 for running away from home to escape nightly beatings and worse. So far, I have not heard of any sort of abuse like this in the LDS church, and I hope I never do.

I'm not singling the Catholic church out, but someone is at fault.

[Avatar4321]

I think I may have to disagree here to some degree. I don't believe I should apologize for things that someone else did. Why should I apologize to Native Americans for something early American settlers did? I haven't personally hurt them, so why is it my responsibility to apologize.

If I do something wrong, I apologize. But if someone else does it, and I am not in anyway involved and have no association with that person, why do I accept responsibility for that?

I dont think I am responsible for others. I don't expect others to apologize to me for the action of others. Take the State of Il apology to the Saints. It's a nice sentiment and all, but those responsible for the actions against the saints are long since gone. The saints that were afflicted by those actions have long since passed. I don't see the need for the apology. Im not offended that they did so. But I wasnt expecting it and wouldn't have demanded it from them.

Personally, my policy is to just forgive anyone who offends me anyway. Id want others to forgive me. Seems like a good policy. Id rather have reconcilation between two parties than emnity. Im just not sure reconciliation is necessary for those who aren't legitimately at odds with another.

My two cents. Im not sure it's even worth that much though.

[3DOP]

EllenMaksoud

These sorts of matters are very sensitive to me.

3DOP

That only confirms why you have difficulty judging the matter impartially. You would never be allowed to be a juror in a trial if your sensitivity was known.

EllenMaksoud

My friend in Wales was put in care at age 6 and was in Borstel at age 12. His offense at "AGE 6" was wearing his sisters dress! Age 6 mind you.

3DOP

So we are back to "the man who lives over there", but not even from Ireland at all. And this makes him such an objective witness about the Catholic Church that we may safely say that he or somebody else was "enslaved by the Catholic Church"?

Ellen Maksoud

I spent time in Juvi when I was 12 for running away from home to escape nightly beatings and worse.

3DOP

I didn't spend time in Juvi. Are you suggesting that whatever you're talking about when you were a child makes you better qualified now to make a just judgment about whether the Catholic Church should be accused of a policy of slavery?

EllenMaksoud

I'm not singling the Catholic church out, but someone is at fault.

3DOP

You are not singling out the Catholic Church? What other church did you name as being guilty of slavery? Because "someone is at fault", and you went to Juvi, and a friend from Wales feels mistreated when he was a child, you get to accuse the Catholic Church of slavery?

Edited February 22, 2013 by 3DOP

[EllenMaksoud]

This matter has been all over the regular news sources. It is not just something Ellen heard from someone over there.

And I agree with you that there should be no assumption that the Catholic Church is guilty with the perpetrators. At most, the RCC might be guilty of failing to provide proper oversight. And there is probably other organizations who can share in the blame, too. It was not just a corrupt group of nuns who were doing this. There would have been others who looked the other way because they were benefitting as well.

Though I do not know the full extent of culpability, it is interesting that it is the Irish government that is making the apology.

My friend was confined at Borstal, until he escapted at 14, stowed away on a freighter, was taken in by the Captain and has lived a very successful life. Borstal was run by Her Majesty's Prison Service. It has been a long battle for him and those like him, trying to at least get the authorities to issue an apology.