blackstrap Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 What is the difference between a drunk,a lush and a wino ? Just the drink of choice. Up here that includes Lysol and other foul tasting and deadly potions. For people whose philosophy includes " ...if a little is good then a lot is better ..." it's best to avoid any alcohol if possible. As for beer,it is my understanding that the pyramids were built on bread and beer. Serious calories were needed.
mathonihah Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 Yes, and back then they used yeast and some type of sugar to make those drinks, much like I use those things when I make root beer, or ginger beer, or sarsparilla, or many other drinks I make using yeast and sugar. I have a fairly big book of old fashioned recipes like that, and I know what they make and made. And I also know it doesn't take very long before the yeast and sugar give the drink a little kick, before it becomes "hard". They made big batches of the stuff, when they made it. That is what the Lord was referring to when he referred to what Joseph called mild drinks.That still doesn't answer the question though: if wine is forbidden, why beer is not, for the same reasons?
mathonihah Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 (edited) I hope you don't think I was serious in bringing up Postum.I question, though, whether it would have been prohibited. It is no more like coffee or tea than are herbal beverages.In South America they drink a famous hot drink called Mate. According to one story I heard, a mission president inquired of the First Presidency to know if drinking it would break the Word of Wisdom, and the reply he got was that it did. Edited February 9, 2013 by mathonihah
Calm Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 (edited) It was allowed in my husband's mission: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_(beverage)OTOH, because Kava can have an intoxicating effect depending on how strong it is, it is not allowed in missions where it is produced that I've heard but there may be some that do.Interesting blog: http://mormonmission.blogspot.com/2008/10/mat-kava-coca-cola-and-lds-missionaries.html Edited February 9, 2013 by calmoriah
The Nehor Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 What is the difference between a drunk,a lush and a wino ? Just the drink of choice.I am a cough syrup man.
Stargazer Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 I'm of the opinion that the "mild drinks" referred to as OK in the WoW might have meant "beer", but more likely referred to malt beverages that are "brewed" but have little or no alcohol content.Such as this wonderful drink:http://www.amazon.com/Karamalz-Classic-Alcohoic-Beverage-bottle/dp/B002ZVLISK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360395518&sr=8-1&keywords=karamalz
halconero Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 One question I have is if we are bound to personal covenants we make with God.I wonder because in the baptismal interview question the candidate for baptism expresses both his or her belief about the Word of Wisdom and their desire to covenant to keep that understanding. Would that be binding then?There are examples in scripture where people have covenanted to do or refrain from something without a commandment being given to do so. 1
Saints Alive Posted February 9, 2013 Author Posted February 9, 2013 That still doesn't answer the question though: if wine is forbidden, why beer is not, for the same reasons?This is the same line of logic that make some think caffeine is prohibited in the WoW. If tea and coffee are prohibited and they both have caffeine in common (really the only thing they have in common) then haw can we drink other things with caffeine? Wine is forbidden because The Lord said it was forbidden, and for some reason he recommended that we drink beer.
Saints Alive Posted February 9, 2013 Author Posted February 9, 2013 I am a cough syrup man.I hear antifreeze will get the job done, but you will have one heck of a hangover...
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 This is the same line of logic that make some think caffeine is prohibited in the WoW. If tea and coffee are prohibited and they both have caffeine in common (really the only thing they have in common) then haw can we drink other things with caffeine? Wine is forbidden because The Lord said it was forbidden, and for some reason he recommended that we drink beer.As God has given no reason for the avoidance of Beer. It is speculative to say that alcohol is the reason.
Saints Alive Posted February 9, 2013 Author Posted February 9, 2013 As God has given no reason for the avoidance of Beer. It is speculative to say that alcohol is the reason.He hasn't given reason to avoid beer period.
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 I hear antifreeze will get the job done, but you will have one heck of a hangover...As Ethylene Glycol is deadly poisonous even in small quantities to humans that is one hangover we don't recover from.
thesometimesaint Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 He hasn't given reason to avoid beer period.He hasn't said to avoid ingesting Antifreeze either. But it is still not a good idea.
Saints Alive Posted February 9, 2013 Author Posted February 9, 2013 He hasn't said to avoid ingesting Antifreeze either. But it is still not a good idea.Thats largely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
mathonihah Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 This is the same line of logic that make some think caffeine is prohibited in the WoW. If tea and coffee are prohibited and they both have caffeine in common (really the only thing they have in common) then haw can we drink other things with caffeine? Wine is forbidden because The Lord said it was forbidden, and for some reason he recommended that we drink beer.That is false logic. In the case of tea and coffee, we don't know what the offending chemical substances are. Cafein may be one of them, but not the only one. Potentially there may be hundreds. In the case of fermented drinks, we know that alcohol is the offending chemical ingredient. There is no other.
mathonihah Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 As God has given no reason for the avoidance of Beer. It is speculative to say that alcohol is the reason.There is no doubt that alcohol is the reason for the prohibition of fermented drinks, including wine.
mathonihah Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 He hasn't given reason to avoid beer period.He has. “Wine or strong drinks” pretty much excludes any alcoholic drink that is of the same strength as wine or higher, which includes beer.
Saints Alive Posted February 9, 2013 Author Posted February 9, 2013 He has. “Wine or strong drinks” pretty much excludes any alcoholic drink that is of the same strength as wine or higher, which includes beer.why specify wine? Early saints would laugh at you for considering beer a strong drink.
mathonihah Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 why specify wine? Early saints would laugh at you for considering beer a strong drink.“Wine or strong drinks” excludes anything that is of the same or higher strength as wine.
Saints Alive Posted February 9, 2013 Author Posted February 9, 2013 “Wine or strong drinks” excludes anything that is of the same or higher strength as wine.No it includes wine and strong drinks. Strong drinks at the time of the revelation meant distilled liqueur
mathonihah Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 No it includes wine and strong drinks. Strong drinks at the time of the revelation meant distilled liqueurThe syntax is inclusive, not exclusive. The specific mention of wine implies all alcoholic drinks of similar strength. Did you really expect the Lord to mention every known alcoholic beverage by name? There is no justification for assuming that "mild drinks" made from grain must necessarily include alcoholic drinks, since there are many kinds that can be made which are not alcoholic.
mathonihah Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 I just did a scripture search for “strong drink,” and found that it occurs more than twenty times in the Bible, and it is a term that is used to mean any type of alcoholic drink. If it has alcohol in it, then that makes it strong drink. It doesn’t mean distilled alcoholic drinks, or “spirits” as they are sometimes called. Distilled drinks probably hadn’t been invented in those days, or if they had been they weren’t common. Strong drinks simply means alcoholic drinks; and sometimes it is used as a synonym for wine itself. In fact, the phrase “wine or strong drink” occurs so often in the Bible that it seems to have been used as an idiom to refer to any kind of alcoholic drinks. And bearing in mind that modern scripture often tries to be idiomatically close to the Bible, there is a strong case for believing that the use of the expression “wine or strong drink” in the D&C has the saem significance that it does in the Bible, and refers to any kind of alcoholic drink. Here are the verses:“Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations” (Leviticus 10:9)“He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.” (Numbers 6:3)“And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the Lord for a drink offering.” (Numbers 28:7)“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,” (Deuteronomy 14:26)“Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.” (Deuteronomy 29:6)“Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing” (Judges 13:4)“But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.” (Judges 13:7)“She may not eat of any thing that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing: all that I commanded her let her observe.” (Judges 13:14)“And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord.” (1 Samuel 1:15)“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” (Proverbs 20:1)“It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink” (Proverbs 31:4)“Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.” (Proverbs 31:6)“Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them” (Isaiah 5:11)“Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink” (Isaiah 5:22)“They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.” (Isaiah 24:9)“But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.” (Isaiah 28:7)“Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.” (Isaiah 29:9)“Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.” (Isaiah 56:12)“If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.” (Micah 2:11)“For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” (Luke 1:15)“Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies” (D&C 27:3) 1
Saints Alive Posted February 10, 2013 Author Posted February 10, 2013 The syntax is inclusive, not exclusive. The specific mention of wine implies all alcoholic drinks of similar strength. Did you really expect the Lord to mention every known alcoholic beverage by name? There is no justification for assuming that "mild drinks" made from grain must necessarily include alcoholic drinks, since there are many kinds that can be made which are not alcoholic.it doesn't mention alcohol spicifically either, nor is it forbidden. We don't know why wine and other strong drinks are prohibited. The belief that it is the alcohol is an assumption and not fact. 1
Stargazer Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 it doesn't mention alcohol spicifically either, nor is it forbidden. We don't know why wine and other strong drinks are prohibited. The belief that it is the alcohol is an assumption and not fact.That is ridiculous. Virtually the only difference between grape juice and wine is that some or all of the sugar has been converted to alcohol. Maybe the Lord didn't come out and specify alcohol, but that could have just been because it would have stopped us from taking certain medications which are best taken in alcoholic solution. I have two bottles of 200 proof Everclear in my closet (my wife is a herbalist and uses it to make tinctures). Are you saying that since this alcohol isn't wine, and it certainly isn't "strong drink", that it is not a violation of the WoW for me to drink it? Although, to be quite honest, a few months ago I took a small swig of the stuff into my mouth out of curiosity, and I thought it was going to tear the lining out of my mouth. Even after I spit it out my mouth felt, well, bad. For hours. Don't try this at home, folks...
Calm Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) That is ridiculous. Virtually the only difference between grape juice and wine is that some or all of the sugar has been converted to alcohol. Maybe the Lord didn't come out and specify alcohol, but that could have just been because it would have stopped us from taking certain medications which are best taken in alcoholic solution.I have two bottles of 200 proof Everclear in my closet (my wife is a herbalist and uses it to make tinctures). Are you saying that since this alcohol isn't wine, and it certainly isn't "strong drink", that it is not a violation of the WoW for me to drink it?Although, to be quite honest, a few months ago I took a small swig of the stuff into my mouth out of curiosity, and I thought it was going to tear the lining out of my mouth. Even after I spit it out my mouth felt, well, bad. For hours. Don't try this at home, folks...That is why tinctures are taking in drops diluted in water. I made my own vanilla extract once with Everclear. Edited February 10, 2013 by calmoriah
Recommended Posts