MiserereNobis Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 So even though perhaps not a sin, it could still deprive a member of the blessings of the temple and temple attendance. This seems rather odd -- if it is not a sin, why it would deprive people of that which is required for the highest exaltation? Wouldn't that mean that one could live a sinless life and not reach the celestial kingdom?
pogi Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 This seems rather odd -- if it is not a sin, why it would deprive people of that which is required for the highest exaltation? Wouldn't that mean that one could live a sinless life and not reach the celestial kingdom? That's the beauty of the millennium, where all of our misunderstandings and mistakes will be reconciled and made whole. If a persons heart is true, he will not be withheld from celestial glory due to a cultural error in understanding and interpretation. The temple work will be performed then.
pogi Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 The thing is, when I lived in Utah, I knew several people who stated in testimony meetings and in EQ that they had prayed about the blacks in the priesthood thing and they said they had received a confirmation that it was because they were less valiant. Now maybe it was confirmation bias due to their own racist feelings but if that is the case, how can you trust anything that you feel? These were basically good people who were convinced. I think that had I asked them at the time, they would have said it was the same sort of confirmation that told them the church was true. I think it is important to understand that if we always follow our feelings to the best of our ability with all integrity and sincerity in trying to follow God's will, we will still make mistakes. In mortality, we will "see through a glass darkly" and will not have a perfect understanding of all truth. We will sometimes confuse the Spirit for our feelings and our feelings for the Spirit. It is a process of learning to have ears to hear and eyes to see. In other words, place your trust in the process and try your feelings, knowing that you will be wrong sometimes. Your ability to discern will increase as you place faith in the process and always try to follow God's will to the best of your ability and understanding. If you are confident in your intentions to follow God's will and know that your heart is pure, you will be lead to the truth in a very mortal way - by learning from your mistakes. 1
thesometimesaint Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 If it's clear to one that beer is not against the WoW, then is it a sin? If the person when making the covenant, or his or her subsequent understanding of the covenant, sincedely thought and believes that beer was permitted, is it a sin? Has that person broken the covenant? (I emphasize "sincerely" to rule out those that are simply looking for a loophole.)Whatever your sincerely held beliefs about the WoW. If you are a member of the Church you have agreed to follow the WoW as it has been explained to you.
thesometimesaint Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 This seems rather odd -- if it is not a sin, why it would deprive people of that which is required for the highest exaltation? Wouldn't that mean that one could live a sinless life and not reach the celestial kingdom? God will judge use by what we did with what we knew. To God there is such a thing as ignorance of the law. 1 Corinthians 9:21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
toon Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 Whatever your sincerely held beliefs about the WoW. If you are a member of the Church you have agreed to follow the WoW as it has been explained to you.\I'm not sure I agree with that. Members have agreed to follow the WoW. But we agree to follow it as we understand it, not as it's been explained to us. Let's put aside the topic of whether beer is allowed by the WoW and instead talk about caffeinated sodas. I know of plenty that were taught, as an absolute, that Coke was against the WoW. Some were taught by people in authority or at least in perceived authority. They were taught wrong. (I recognize that some might argue this point, but I think it is an extreme minority opinion.) If they on their own come to a different understanding, sincerely believe that it's ok to drink Coke, and then decide to have a Coke, there is little to suggest they are no longer following the WoW, even though they are not following it as it had been taught to them.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 \I'm not sure I agree with that. Members have agreed to follow the WoW. But we agree to follow it as we understand it, not as it's been explained to us. Let's put aside the topic of whether beer is allowed by the WoW and instead talk about caffeinated sodas. I know of plenty that were taught, as an absolute, that Coke was against the WoW. Some were taught by people in authority or at least in perceived authority. They were taught wrong. (I recognize that some might argue this point, but I think it is an extreme minority opinion.) If they on their own come to a different understanding, sincerely believe that it's ok to drink Coke, and then decide to have a Coke, there is little to suggest they are no longer following the WoW, even though they are not following it as it had been taught to them. Don't drink alcohol is pretty easy to understand. OTOH I see no prohibitions on the ingestion of minute quantities left over in the cooking process. IE ; Yeast breads. Would we be better off not drinking caffeine in the form of Coke? Most likely we would. I've heard it both ways from people I respect as my religious leaders. So I'm forced to conclude that while drinking caffeine in the form of Coke probably isn't good for me it isn't prohibited either.
Tacenda Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Anteojito, what you say is right, IMO. But it might be a good thing with the essay pretty much saying the policy/doctrine is racist. Now, hopefully saints will not rely totally on the prophet for guidance, but go to the Lord with more faith and develop a personal relationship, which is a requirement according to scripture. We should not let an organization stand in between. I think people since day one have wanted to know everything about our existance and put words in God's mouth. He has said no one has seen his face, I think He wants to keep it that way. Relationship is key. Edited February 28, 2014 by Tacenda
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 Anteojito, what you say is right, IMO. But it might be a good thing with the essay pretty much saying the policy/doctrine is racist. Now, hopefully saints will not rely totally on the prophet for guidance, but go to the Lord with more faith and develop a personal relationship, which is a requirement according to scripture. We should not let an organization stand in between. I think people since day one have wanted to know everything about our existance and put words in God's mouth. He has said no one has seen his face, I think He wants to keep it that way. Relationship is key. Come on Tacenda you know better than that.. "This is my Beloved Son hear ye him".
Calm Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 . He has said no one has seen his face, I think He wants to keep it that way. Relationship is key.Now that is one major contradiction in my view.
Tacenda Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 Now that is one major contradiction in my view. Exodus 33:20 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
Tacenda Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Come on Tacenda you know better than that.. "This is my Beloved Son hear ye him". John 5:3737 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. Exodus 33:21–23 21 Then the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23 “Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.” Edited February 28, 2014 by Tacenda
Anteojito Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 Exodus 33:2020 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” But Joseph saw him...
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 Exodus 33:2020 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!” Adam talked with God face to face.Genesis 1: 28-29 Abraham talked with God face to faceGenesis 17:3 Moses talked with God face to face.Exodus 33:11 Joseph Smith talked with God face to face.
Calm Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 Exodus 33:20 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”The contradiction is thinking the relationship is key to a being that intentionally keeps hidden/masked.
Tacenda Posted February 28, 2014 Posted February 28, 2014 The contradiction is thinking the relationship is key to a being that intentionally keeps hidden/masked.I'm slowly getting close to Alzheimer's so bear with me....I don't understand your reply I guess. Help me.
Calm Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 If someone only interacted with you with his back turned to you or with a mask on, do you think you would feel that the relationship with you was very important to him? If someone loves you, doesn't he generally reveal himself to you overtime as you reveal yourself to him and draw closer together?
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 If someone only interacted with you with his back turned to you or with a mask on, do you think you would feel that the relationship with you was very important to him?If someone loves you, doesn't he generally reveal himself to you overtime as you reveal yourself to him and draw closer together?I guess yes, if it was just anyone, but I put God on a different plane. Do the scriptures I mentioned matter? Or are they like so many, that give me heartburn, just giving mixed messages?
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 Check out Exodus 33:11 and Deu 34:10Acts 7, supposedly it's an angel acting in His stead.
Calm Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 Perhaps...But the Acts 7:2 says God appeared to Abraham
pogi Posted March 1, 2014 Posted March 1, 2014 Tacenda, this might help: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/No_man_has_seen_God
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 Tacenda, this might help:http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/No_man_has_seen_GodThanks Pogi.
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