Wow Prohibition On Beer Simply An Artifact Of Prohibition?

[mathonihah]

I think the prohibition against wine (except in Sacraments) has more to do with the perceived problem of "conspiring men" that Joseph Smith believed were planning to poison wine and liquor purchased by Mormons, ...

I believe that the revelations in the D&C came from God, not from Joseph Smith.

Edited February 14, 2013 by mathonihah

[mathonihah]

I've never quite understood this. You are either guilty or not guilty. If you think others would pass judgement just from appearance, then are you saying that if you see someone with a glass of 'something', it is guilty until proven innocent?

No; but if you are in an environment in which everyone is holding a glass in their hands which is likely to be alcoholic, the best way of making the point that you are not part of that clique is to not hold anything in your hand at all!

Edited February 14, 2013 by mathonihah

[mathonihah]

I agree that wine is not a strong drink, ...

In biblical terms, it is a strong drink.

... but even if it were, it is still acceptable to drink it within certain parameters.

What might those parameters be?

Edited February 14, 2013 by mathonihah

[mathonihah]

What bothers me most is the self-serving motivation behind the argument in the first place. We're bombarded by apologists excusing away what the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have said as just their opinions, and that what is authoritative is the scriptures, on the one hand, and on the other we're told that the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators trump the scriptures because they've got special insight that can apply in a different time and society than when the scriptures were written. I don't really think you can have it both ways.

Okay, if you just go by the exact wording of the scripture, and ignore what the “prophets and apostles” have said, what do you understand by the clause, “it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father?”

But this is a side issue, really. Mathonihah is simply wrong when he says that 12% wine doesn't differ substantially from 4-5% beer.

What is the difference (alcohol-wise) between drinking a glass of 12% wine, and a pint of 4-5% beer?

Edited February 14, 2013 by mathonihah

[Randall57]

Isn't the whole idea about not getting drunk and abusing alcohol? In reading the thread, I am confused at the logic being used. What is the differnce of being an alcoholic that drinks beer, or hard liquor, besides the size of their waste line?

[mathonihah]

Isn't the whole idea about not getting drunk and abusing alcohol? In reading the thread, I am confused at the logic being used. What is the differnce of being an alcoholic that drinks beer, or hard liquor, besides the size of their waste line?

The idea is to obey the commandment of the Lord.

[Saints Alive]

Or the non commandment in this case.

[mathonihah]

Or the non commandment in this case.

When the Lord says that something "is not good," I look at it as a commandment, even if it is not issued as such.

[Saints Alive]

When the Lord says that something "is not good," I look at it as a commandment, even if it is not issued as such.

I can look at Leviticus, where it says women shouldn't wear pants, as a commandment that doesn't make it so.

[sdc999]

No; but if you are in an environment in which everyone is holding a glass in their hands which is likely to be alcoholic, the best way of making the point that you are not part of that clique is to not hold anything in your hand at all!

I still don't understand. If you are so opposed to the appearance, then why would you place yourself within the event itself if that's the overwhelming theme? Not drinking alcohol is not a bad thing. Now if someone asks you why you are not drinking and you respond with the, "so I don't appear evil like you" then you deserve the response I'm sure you would get.

[ERayR]

The idea is to obey the commandment of the Lord.

One can kill just as many brain cells with beer as with whiskey.

[rockpond]

Okay, then tell me what the original phrasing is which has been translated in the KJV as “wine or strong drink”.

I don't know the original phrasing and as you noted, the KJV uses that phrase many times.

My point is that you cannot keep saying that the exact phrase "wine or strong drinks" is used 20 times in the Bible. In reality, the KJV translation chose to use that phrase. And you have not provided any evidence to suggest that it means "wine or any other comparable drink".

[mathonihah]

I can look at Leviticus, where it says women shouldn't wear pants, as a commandment that doesn't make it so.

Leviticus was a commandment; but it is not a commandment now; since the Law of Moses was done away. The D&C is a book of revelation given specifically for us in this dispensation and for our time.

[mathonihah]

I still don't understand. If you are so opposed to the appearance, then why would you place yourself within the event itself if that's the overwhelming theme?

I wouldn't; but someone's profession may demand it. If you are in business, or in politics, or have a job in the diplomatic service, you may be required to attend such functions as part of your profession.

Not drinking alcohol is not a bad thing. Now if someone asks you why you are not drinking and you respond with the, "so I don't appear evil like you" then you deserve the response I'm sure you would get.

That is not the reply I would give. The reply I would give is that I am a Mormon, and drinking is prohibited by my religion.

[mathonihah]

One can kill just as many brain cells with beer as with whiskey.

Very likely so! But I would be more worried by the spiritual consequences than the temporal ones.

[thesometimesaint]

I can look at Leviticus, where it says women shouldn't wear pants, as a commandment that doesn't make it so.

False dichotomy.

[mathonihah]

I don't know the original phrasing and as you noted, the KJV uses that phrase many times.

My point is that you cannot keep saying that the exact phrase "wine or strong drinks" is used 20 times in the Bible. In reality, the KJV translation chose to use that phrase. And you have not provided any evidence to suggest that it means "wine or any other comparable drink".

The KJV wouldn't pull that phrase out of thin air. It uses it because it has an exact, or a very close match with the original. It is like the phrase, "it came to pass". It occurs 453 times in the KJV. Do you think the KJV pulls that phrase out of thin air, unless it has a close match in the original manuscripts?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Leviticus was a commandment; but it is not a commandment now; since the Law of Moses was done away. The D&C is a book of revelation given specifically for us in this dispensation and for our time.

Interesting...

So your position is that the commandments within the Law of Moses are done away with.

That leaves open a whole slew of behaviors that I can assure you that you would not support.

Might want to rethink your position.

[ERayR]

Very likely so! But I would be more worried by the spiritual consequences than the temporal ones.

That goes without saying but this thread was started about the WoW prohibition on beer being the result of a temporal law. My comment is that the temporal consequences is enough for any thinking person to avoid beer.

[rockpond]

The KJV wouldn't pull that phrase out of thin air. It uses it because it has an exact, or a very close match with the original. It is like the phrase, "it came to pass". It occurs 453 times in the KJV. Do you think the KJV pulls that phrase out of thin air, unless it has a close match in the original manuscripts?

Yes, I get that you have an intense trust in the KJV translators. And I am not educated in the KJV translation process so I can't comment on your question.

As far as I can tell, the phrase "strong drink" is translated from the Hebrew word pronounced "shekar". It means an intensely alcoholic liquor. (Referencing Strong's Concordance). Others believe that "strong drink" refers to the unmixed (or undiluted) wine.

If you want to read "strong drink" as any drink comparable to wine, that's fine with me. But I don't see that you've provided any evidence of that being the correct interpretation other than your repeated insistence. And, according to my Strong's reference above, it seems that beer doesn't fit and it is likely not considered an intensely alcoholic liquor.

That said, I will reiterate that for me this is an academic debate as I have no interest in promoting the drinking of beer and no personal desire to ever partake of it.

[Saints Alive]

That goes without saying but this thread was started about the WoW prohibition on beer being the result of a temporal law. My comment is that the temporal consequences is enough for any thinking person to avoid beer.

Moderate consumption of beer has NO temporal consequences. Heck, I know a few healthy, well to do adults who were anything but moderate with beer in their college days and are now normal functioning adults.

[ERayR]

Moderate consumption of beer has NO temporal consequences. Heck, I know a few healthy, well to do adults who were anything but moderate with beer in their college days and are now normal functioning adults.

And I know a few healthy, well to do adults who are not moderate with strong drink who function quite well. I also know a few moderate drinkers who don't function so well. I know a several who would be able to function at a much higher level if they hadn't been users of beer in their younger days.

Anecdotal evidence is not all that reliable.

[mathonihah]

Interesting...

So your position is that the commandments within the Law of Moses are done away with.

That leaves open a whole slew of behaviors that I can assure you that you would not support.

Might want to rethink your position.

“And it came to pass that when Jesus had said these words he perceived that there were some among them who marveled, and wondered what he would concerning the law of Moses; for they understood not the saying that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.

“And he said unto them: Marvel not that I said unto you that old things had passed away, and that all things had become new.

“Behold, I say unto you that the law is fulfilled that was given unto Moses.

“Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end.

“Behold, I do not destroy the prophets, for as many as have not been fulfilled in me, verily I say unto you, shall all be fulfilled.

“And because I said unto you that old things have passed away, I do not destroy that which hath been spoken concerning things which are to come.

“For behold, the covenant which I have made with my people is not all fulfilled; but the law which was given unto Moses hath an end in me.

“Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life.

“Behold, I have given unto you the commandments; therefore keep my commandments. And this is the law and the prophets, for they truly testified of me.” (3 Nephi 15:2–10)

This of course does not mean that everything was done away. The Ten Commandments was not done away. But a lot of the other things, like the dietary laws, sacrificial laws, circumcision, dress codes etc. were done away.

[Saints Alive]

And I know a few healthy, well to do adults who are not moderate with strong drink who function quite well. I also know a few moderate drinkers who don't function so well. I know a several who would be able to function at a much higher level if they hadn't been users of beer in their younger days.

Anecdotal evidence is not all that reliable.

Here is one scholarly source that says alcohol is good in moderation: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/alcohol-full-story/

[Sethbag]

No; but if you are in an environment in which everyone is holding a glass in their hands which is likely to be alcoholic, the best way of making the point that you are not part of that clique is to not hold anything in your hand at all!

It does seem as if you place a very high premium on making sure others know exactly where you stand, to the point where eliminating any ambiguity in the matter takes higher precedence in your decision-making than what's actually in your glass.

Btw, I read once that the "avoid every appearance of evil" was a poor translation, and that in the original it was closer to "avoid every form of evil". Changes a lot, really.