thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Since we all agree that the prophets and apostles are flawed men, then how do we know if they are providing revelation and when they are just speaking as men? Is one earring for women and none for men revelation or just a pet peeve? We have the 1949 letter signed by the first presidency stating: The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: "Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to." So was that revelation or just the opinions of flawed men? BTW, you would think that the word of wisdom would have has something about boiling water before drinking it. Actually in those days hot drinks would have been safer than water. We each have the responsibility to ask God for confirmation.
pogi Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Yup. So order that extra large chocolate milk shake instead Good point! That is one of the pet peeves I have with Mormons who claim a superior health code yet fill their bodies full of crap. That is still no justification for beer. I love my water!
Anteojito Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 We each have the responsibility to ask God for confirmation.So one is supposed to ask God for confirmation about everything that a Prophet or Apostle says? If that is the case, wouldn't it be easier to just cut out the middleman?
thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 So one is supposed to ask God for confirmation about everything that a Prophet or Apostle says? If that is the case, wouldn't it be easier to just cut out the middleman? Yes. Simply because my personal revelation from God has no applicability to others outside my realm of authority. Prophets and Apostles speak for the whole Church. I don't.
Calm Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Good point! That is one of the pet peeves I have with Mormons who claim a superior health code yet fill their bodies full of crap. That is still no justification for beer. I love my water!I am loving the recent Ensigns that are presenting info and discussion about healthy practices. I hope it becomes a regular feature or at least a frequent topic.
Anteojito Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Yes. Simply because my personal revelation from God has no applicability to others outside my realm of authority. Prophets and Apostles speak for the whole Church. I don't.Yes Prophets and Apostles speak for the whole Church...except when they don't. For example: "The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.” – First Presidency, August 17, 1949The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: “Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.” – First Presidency, August 17, 1949 So if the First Presidency were speaking as men then and not as an Apostles of God, how do I know that men who say we must obey the WOW as a commandment aren't just speaking as men? Right pray about it. How many people I wonder prayed about the above statement and got a burning in the bosom that it was from God?
pogi Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) how do I know that men who say we must obey the WOW as a commandment aren't just speaking as men? Right pray about it. How many people I wonder prayed about the above statement and got a burning in the bosom that it was from God? The number of people who have prayed and received a burning in the bosom on the matter will not help YOU know if it came from God or not. Edited February 26, 2014 by pogi
thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 For better or worse God doesn't make sock puppets. So even Apostles of God can be wrong. The only way for us as individuals to know is to ask God. As to the WoW I have agreed to follow the WoW as described by my leaders. I have personally prayed about it, and found it to be true. I really can't speak for anyone else on my personal revelation.
Anteojito Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 The number of people who have prayed and received a burning in the bosom on the matter will not help YOU know if it came from God or not. Not my point. How many people prayed about the church's stance that blacks could not have the priesthood because they were less valiant in the pre-existence and receive a confirmation that it was from God? And let me ask this. If, during a TR interview I told my bishop that I had prayed about the WOW and that I had received confirmation that it was not a commandment and that I don't have to follow it, would I still get my TR?
Anteojito Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 For better or worse God doesn't make sock puppets. So even Apostles of God can be wrong. The only way for us as individuals to know is to ask God. As to the WoW I have agreed to follow the WoW as described by my leaders. I have personally prayed about it, and found it to be true. I really can't speak for anyone else on my personal revelation.Ok they were wrong. Why didn't God tell all the people that prayed about it that they were wrong?
thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Not my point. How many people prayed about the church's stance that blacks could not have the priesthood because they were less valiant in the pre-existence and receive a confirmation that it was from God? And let me ask this. If, during a TR interview I told my bishop that I had prayed about the WOW and that I had received confirmation that it was not a commandment and that I don't have to follow it, would I still get my TR? Immaterial as to how many prayed about it. No you would not, simply because your personal prayer has no binding on anyone else but you.
thesometimesaint Posted February 26, 2014 Posted February 26, 2014 Ok they were wrong. Why didn't God tell all the people that prayed about it that they were wrong? I don't know. But it is one of the many questions I'll ask when I see him next.
pogi Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 Not my point. How many people prayed about the church's stance that blacks could not have the priesthood because they were less valiant in the pre-existence and receive a confirmation that it was from God? And let me ask this. If, during a TR interview I told my bishop that I had prayed about the WOW and that I had received confirmation that it was not a commandment and that I don't have to follow it, would I still get my TR? What exactly is your point then? That prayer doesn't work? When you actually receive the confirmation that the WOW is not a commandment, then we can talk.
Anteojito Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 What exactly is your point then? That prayer doesn't work? When you actually receive the confirmation that the WOW is not a commandment, then we can talk.I did. Now what?
pogi Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 Ok they were wrong. Why didn't God tell all the people that prayed about it that they were wrong? I sincerely doubt that anybody really prayed to know for sure if blacks were less valiant in the preexistence, except for perhaps the blacks members themselves. I think that they have always had the stupor of thought on that issue.
Anteojito Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I sincerely doubt that anybody really prayed to know for sure if blacks were less valiant in the preexistence, except for perhaps the blacks members themselves. I think that they have always had the stupor of thought on that issue. Really? You really believe that no one prayed about that and got a confirmation? You REALLY REALLY believe that?
pogi Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I did. Now what?If you are asking about the temple recommend question, go talk to your bishop and find out I guess. Ultimately, you are going to stand before God to be judged. I am not going to judge you for following what you believe to be the spirit on any matter. Ultimately, if you are true to the spirit and sincere in your devotion to God, you will end up in the right place, even if you make mistakes along the way. If you are a righteous and faithful member, God will not let you get too far down the wrong road before making you aware that you have made the wrong choice. Go ahead and drink the beer if you are so confident in your answer.
pogi Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 Really? You really believe that no one prayed about that and got a confirmation? You REALLY REALLY believe that? I believe that people will believe what they want to believe as evidenced by confirmation bias, some people will confuse what they want to be true with what is actually true to the point that they are not even impressionable by the Spirit. To be clear, no, I don't believe that God will confirm an un-truth through the sprit to be true. That would make God a liar and I cannot believe that.
Anteojito Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I believe that people will believe what they want to believe as evidenced by confirmation bias, some people will confuse what they want to be true with what is actually true to the point that they are not even impressionable by the Spirit. To be clear, no, I don't believe that God will confirm an un-truth through the sprit to be true. That would make God a liar and I cannot believe that. The thing is, when I lived in Utah, I knew several people who stated in testimony meetings and in EQ that they had prayed about the blacks in the priesthood thing and they said they had received a confirmation that it was because they were less valiant. Now maybe it was confirmation bias due to their own racist feelings but if that is the case, how can you trust anything that you feel? These were basically good people who were convinced. I think that had I asked them at the time, they would have said it was the same sort of confirmation that told them the church was true.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I found this blog recently: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2009/06/too-bad-i-dont-like-beer.htmlI can't find an author name on it (maybe he/she is a MDDB member?) but I do believe they have made a strong argument that the WoW never meant to prohibit all forms of alcohol. Similarly to how some members equate the prohibition on hot drinks to caffeine, except that due to Prohibition all alcohol became forbidden.We have men whom we sustain as Prophets, Seers and Revelators, should we not trust their judgement. I am sure many people are talented enough to make a strong case for ditching the entire WoW. Maybe one of them will be a Prophet someday and we can get it straight.
toon Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 In South America they drink a famous hot drink called Mate. According to one story I heard, a mission president inquired of the First Presidency to know if drinking it would break the Word of Wisdom, and the reply he got was that it did. I heard a different version of the story -- the one where the answer was that it did not break the Word of Wisdom. Mormon folklore.
toon Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 Maybe clear to you, but not to me. If it's clear to one that beer is not against the WoW, then is it a sin? If the person when making the covenant, or his or her subsequent understanding of the covenant, sincedely thought and believes that beer was permitted, is it a sin? Has that person broken the covenant? (I emphasize "sincerely" to rule out those that are simply looking for a loophole.)
Anteojito Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 I heard a different version of the story -- the one where the answer was that it did not break the Word of Wisdom. Mormon folklore.I served my mission in Argentina and the people there drink a lot of mate. It is a hot drink and is loaded with caffeine. Members would get together and drink mate before going off to church. I never really understood why they were allowed to. We had a lot of late night discussions about it back in the flat.
toon Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 If you are asking about the temple recommend question, go talk to your bishop and find out I guess. Ultimately, you are going to stand before God to be judged. I am not going to judge you for following what you believe to be the spirit on any matter. Ultimately, if you are true to the spirit and sincere in your devotion to God, you will end up in the right place, even if you make mistakes along the way. If you are a righteous and faithful member, God will not let you get too far down the wrong road before making you aware that you have made the wrong choice. Go ahead and drink the beer if you are so confident in your answer. My take, drinking beer may very well not be against the WoW -- it seems to be permitted by the text. It may not be a sin. (But I also think one could be an argument, albeit less compelling, that violating the WoW is not a sin.) But it might keep you out of the temple. (I understand that the temple recommend questiond does not specifically mention beer, but I also suspect that the vast majority of bishops and stake presidents conducting the interview would consider it a violation and might have a problem issuing a recommend if drinkgin beer came up or was disclosed.) So even though perhaps not a sin, it could still deprive a member of the blessings of the temple and temple attendance.
MiserereNobis Posted February 27, 2014 Posted February 27, 2014 In South America they drink a famous hot drink called Mate. According to one story I heard, a mission president inquired of the First Presidency to know if drinking it would break the Word of Wisdom, and the reply he got was that it did. Since I posted a picture of our previous Pontiff drinking beer, here's a picture of our current Pontiff drinking mate: 1
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