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Wow Prohibition On Beer Simply An Artifact Of Prohibition?

Saints Alive

By Saints Alive
in General Discussions

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mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted (edited)

Yes, I get that you have an intense trust in the KJV translators. And I am not educated in the KJV translation process so I can't comment on your question.

As far as I can tell, the phrase "strong drink" is translated from the Hebrew word pronounced "shekar". It means an intensely alcoholic liquor. (Referencing Strong's Concordance). Others believe that "strong drink" refers to the unmixed (or undiluted) wine.

If you want to read "strong drink" as any drink comparable to wine, that's fine with me. But I don't see that you've provided any evidence of that being the correct interpretation other than your repeated insistence. And, according to my Strong's reference above, it seems that beer doesn't fit and it is likely not considered an intensely alcoholic liquor.

That said, I will reiterate that for me this is an academic debate as I have no interest in promoting the drinking of beer and no personal desire to ever partake of it.

I tried an experiment. Here is a well known verse from the proverbs 31:6.

“Give
strong drink
unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.”

I tried it in several different translations using the site http://biblos.com/. Most of them translate the original Hebrew word as “strong drink,” but there are a few that use other expressions like beer, alcohol, and liquor.

Give
beer
to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;

Alcohol
is for the dying, and wine for those in bitter distress.

Give
strong drink
to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress;

Give
strong drink
to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter.

Give
beer
to one who is dying and wine to one whose life is bitter.

Give
liquor
to someone who is perishing, and wine to someone who is deeply depressed.

Give
strong drink
unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Strong drink
is given to mourners and wine to bitter souls,

Give
liquor
to a person who is dying and wine to one who feels resentful.

Give
strong drink
unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Give
strong drink
to him that is ready to perish, and wine to those that be of heavy hearts.

Give
strong drink
unto him that is ready to perish, And wine unto the bitter in soul:

Give
strong drink
to them that are sad: and wine to them that are grieved in mind:

Give
strong drink
unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto the bitter of soul:

Give
strong drink
unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto the bitter in soul:

Give
strong drink
to him that is ready to perish, and wine to those that are of heavy hearts.

Give
strong drink
to him who is ready to perish; and wine to the bitter in soul:

Give
strong drink
to the perishing, And wine to the bitter in soul,

Strong drink is used thirteen times, beer twice, liquor twice, and alcohol once. You can try out the other examples for yourself.

Edited by mathonihah
Sethbag Collaborator

Sethbag

Posted
Posted
What is the difference (alcohol-wise) between drinking a glass of 12% wine, and a pint of 4-5% beer?

The effect of any alcoholic beverage depends on absorption rates, which are affected by many things, including concentration of alcohol, contents of food in the stomach, and probably other things. Assuming a person is sipping a beer, and sipping the wine, they will get more alcohol per sip of the wine, and hence a greater effect in the short term. Remember that the body is constantly processing the alcohol as well, so the result of alcohol drinking depends on the balance of rate of intake vs. rate that the body can metabolize it. Even if you chugged the beer, and chugged the wine, so that the actual number of alcohol molecules taken in was comparable, the fact that the pint of beer dissolved that alcohol in 16 ounces of liquid vs. the ~5 ounces or so of liquid in the wine would effect the rate of absorption of the alcohol, and hence the rate of change in blood alcohol level.

Sethbag Collaborator

Sethbag

Posted
Posted

The same revelatory source says barley is for the making of mild drinks, and this can reasonably be construed as including beer. If you're a strict constructionist/originalist with regard to scripture, then you haven't really got a strong case against beer, and if you're a theojudicial activist, then the text doesn't matter anyhow, because you're substituting your own judgment, or someone else's, for what was written previously.

1
mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

It does seem as if you place a very high premium on making sure others know exactly where you stand, to the point where eliminating any ambiguity in the matter takes higher precedence in your decision-making than what's actually in your glass.

You could say that I suppose—in the right environment.

Btw, I read once that the "avoid every appearance of evil" was a poor translation, and that in the original it was closer to "avoid every form of evil". Changes a lot, really.

It doesn't matter. I agree with the principle it expresses, even if it represents an incorrect translation of the Bible.

mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

The effect of any alcoholic beverage depends on absorption rates, which are affected by many things, including concentration of alcohol, contents of food in the stomach, and probably other things. Assuming a person is sipping a beer, and sipping the wine, they will get more alcohol per sip of the wine, and hence a greater effect in the short term. Remember that the body is constantly processing the alcohol as well, so the result of alcohol drinking depends on the balance of rate of intake vs. rate that the body can metabolize it. Even if you chugged the beer, and chugged the wine, so that the actual number of alcohol molecules taken in was comparable, the fact that the pint of beer dissolved that alcohol in 16 ounces of liquid vs. the ~5 ounces or so of liquid in the wine would effect the rate of absorption of the alcohol, and hence the rate of change in blood alcohol level.

I think you are being too technical now, more than would be required for a general discussion like this. As I said before, I think the spiritual aspects of the commandment are as relevant as the temporal, if not more so.

mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

The same revelatory source says barley is for the making of mild drinks, and this can reasonably be construed as including beer. If you're a strict constructionist/originalist with regard to scripture, then you haven't really got a strong case against beer, and if you're a theojudicial activist, then the text doesn't matter anyhow, because you're substituting your own judgment, or someone else's, for what was written previously.

You are taking us round in circles now. I have already given my reasons why I don't believe "mild drinks" made with grain should be understood to mean beer.

Saints Alive Veteran

Saints Alive

Posted
  • Author
Posted

And further down it says, 20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

I've seen plenty adhere to this that couldn't run a 10 yard dash.

:rofl:
Sethbag Collaborator

Sethbag

Posted
Posted

You are taking us round in circles now. I have already given my reasons why I don't believe "mild drinks" made with grain should be understood to mean beer.

And you think it's illegitimate for anyone to disagree with your interpretations?

mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

And further down it says, 20 And shall arun and not be bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

I've seen plenty adhere to this that couldn't run a 10 yard dash.

If you want to see all the health benefits of the Word of Wisdom, you have to observe all of the principles it contains, including eating in moderation, avoiding excess meat, eating plenty of fresh fruits, and keeping an active lifestyle. See D&C 88:124, "Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated." I regard that as part of the Word of Wisdom too. Abstaining from drinks alone won't do it. But keeping part of the Word of Wisdom is still better than not keeping any of it at all!

Saints Alive Veteran

Saints Alive

Posted
  • Author
Posted

And you think it's illegitimate for anyone to disagree with your interpretations?

You didn't know that he is the final word on all things mormon doctrine? Now you know.
mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted (edited)

And you think it's illegitimate for anyone to disagree with your interpretations?

No. I have given my reasons; and other people are free to disagree, and give their reasons.

Edited by mathonihah
Sethbag Collaborator

Sethbag

Posted
Posted

I think you are being too technical now, more than would be required for a general discussion like this. As I said before, I think the spiritual aspects of the commandment are as relevant as the temporal, if not more so. [emphasis added]

You were the one comparing beer and wine, I was just discussing the comparison as it relates to people actually consuming beer and wine. I bolded "spiritual" in the quote above because, amusingly, my discussion actually covered "spirits" that we know to exist, while you call shenanigans on me to assert spirits for which no evidence is on hand to demonstrate their existence. I just thought it was kind of funny.

Cobalt-70 Grand Master

Cobalt-70

Posted
Posted (edited)

It does seem as if you place a very high premium on making sure others know exactly where you stand, to the point where eliminating any ambiguity in the matter takes higher precedence in your decision-making than what's actually in your glass.

Btw, I read once that the "avoid every appearance of evil" was a poor translation, and that in the original it was closer to "avoid every form of evil". Changes a lot, really.

If the rule truly were to avoid the "appearance" of evil, then Jesus would be the biggest violator of that rule. With all his feasting with publicans, prostitutes, leppers, and sinners, it seems that he deliberately sought the appearance of evil--sometimes to make a point. And lets not forget that Jesus was accused of being a "wino" (Matt. 11:19), because wherever he went the wine was sure to flow freely.

Edited by Cobalt-70
mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

You were the one comparing beer and wine, I was just discussing the comparison as it relates to people actually consuming beer and wine. I bolded "spiritual" in the quote above because, amusingly, my discussion actually covered "spirits" that we know to exist, while you call shenanigans on me to assert spirits for which no evidence is on hand to demonstrate their existence. I just thought it was kind of funny.

Sorry, but I didn't understand you post. Perhaps you are not LDS, and are not familiar with the spiritual aspects of the Word of Wisdom.

mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

If the rule truly were to avoid the "appearance" of evil, then Jesus would be the biggest violator of that rule. With all his feasting with publicans, prostitutes, leppers, and sinners, it seems that he deliberately sought the appearance of evil--sometimes to make a point. And lets not forget that Jesus was accused of being a "wino" (Matt. 11:19), because wherever he went the wine was sure to flow freely.

Avoiding the appearance of evil does not equate with avoiding the company of sinners who are seeking repentance in order to instruct them. That is what Jesus did when he joined the company of sinners. He didn't condone their sins, nor participate in their sinful acts; but taught them the ways of righteousness when he perceived that they were receptive to his message. As a rule he didn't go to them, but they came to him, or invited him among them, because they perceived his virtue, and wanted to hear him.

Sethbag Collaborator

Sethbag

Posted
Posted (edited)

Sorry, but I didn't understand you post. Perhaps you are not LDS, and are not familiar with the spiritual aspects of the Word of Wisdom.

I'm a former TBM, current apostate. I am familiar with the spiritual aspects of the Word of Wisdom. I think they're all in your head. As are the "spiritual" aspects of alcoholic beverages, actually, only in a different sense. ;-)

Edited by Sethbag
mathonihah Proficient

mathonihah

Posted
Posted

I'm a former TBM, current apostate. I am familiar with the spiritual aspects of the Word of Wisdom. I think they're all in your head. As are the "spiritual" aspects of alcoholic beverages, actually, only in a different sense. ;-)

No, they are not in my head. They are written in the revelations, as follows:

"And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

"
And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

"And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

"And I, the Lord,
give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them
. Amen." (D&C 89:18–21)

The temporal blessings pronounced also have their spiritual dimensions. To the Lord, all things are spiritual (D&C 29:34)

Calm Grand Master

Calm

Posted
Posted (edited)

The effect of any alcoholic beverage depends on absorption rates, which are affected by many things, including concentration of alcohol, contents of food in the stomach, and probably other things. Assuming a person is sipping a beer, and sipping the wine, they will get more alcohol per sip of the wine, and hence a greater effect in the short term. Remember that the body is constantly processing the alcohol as well, so the result of alcohol drinking depends on the balance of rate of intake vs. rate that the body can metabolize it. Even if you chugged the beer, and chugged the wine, so that the actual number of alcohol molecules taken in was comparable, the fact that the pint of beer dissolved that alcohol in 16 ounces of liquid vs. the ~5 ounces or so of liquid in the wine would effect the rate of absorption of the alcohol, and hence the rate of change in blood alcohol level.

Wine is generally eaten with a meal, I believe. Don't know if beer is or not, from TV it looks like the main edible it is taken with is either peanuts or pretzels where it is unlikely that one gets a comparable amount of nonalcoholic content in one's stomach to dilute it. Edited by calmoriah
Saints Alive Veteran

Saints Alive

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Wine is generally eaten with a meal, I believe. Don't know if beer is or not, from TV it looks like the main edible it is taken with is either peanuts or pretzels where it is unlikely that one gets a comparable amount of nonalcoholic content in one's stomach to dilute it.

Many people have a beer with dinner.
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