Wow Prohibition On Beer Simply An Artifact Of Prohibition?

Ahab · February 8, 2013

Asking him is always the best policy.

I have, and while he had a certain thing in mind when he said it, those who he authorizes to guide the Church have taken it to another level by making a Church policy essentially stating that we should avoid any form of alcohol, for drinking.

Our Lord wasn't giving it as a commandment, but as a wise course of action, but then our authorized Church leaders, under him, decided to make it a commandment banning the use of alcohol, for drinking. And those men have our Lord's authority to make those kinds of decisions, with our Lord's approval.

Something doesn't have to come straight from the Lord to be binding on the whole Church, so it's not as if it's only what he says that matters.

mathonihah · February 8, 2013

I have, and while he had a certain thing in mind when he said it, those who he authorizes to guide the Church have taken it to another level by making a Church policy essentially stating that we should avoid any form of alcohol, for drinking.
Our Lord wasn't giving it as a commandment, but as a wise course of action, but then our authorized Church leaders, under him, decided to make it a commandment banning the use of alcohol, for drinking. And those men have our Lord's authority to make those kinds of decisions, with our Lord's approval.
Something doesn't have to come straight from the Lord to be binding on the whole Church, so it's not as if it's only what he says that matters.

My problem with that is that I don't know whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.

semlogo · February 8, 2013

Question for those who believe that the Word of Wisdom in its original form permits the drinking of beer. The wording of the revelation is clearly antithetical to the drinking of wine; and puts it on the same level as "strong drinks":
"That inasmuch as any man drinketh
wine or strong drink
among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him." (D&C 89:5)
Now the percentage alcohol in beer is not substantially lower than wine. There are different kinds of both of course. Some beers even have a higher percentage of alcohol than some types of wine. But on average wine contains between 12.5% and 14.5% alcohol, whereas beer contains on average between 4% and 6% alcohol (see here and here for more information). But beer is normally consumed in much greater quantities than wine. It is considered a "thirst quencher". Hence an average beer drinker probably consumes the same quantity of alcohol as an average wine drinker. But if wine is prohibited, what makes you think that beer should be allowed? The verse in question that is quoted in support of that belief is as follows:
"Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain." (D&C 89:17)
I am not at all sure this must necessarily refer to beer. Unless somebody actually inquires from the Lord, and obtain a revelation to that effect (or better still, a recipe for how that kind of drink should be made!), I think it is presumptuous of any of us to jump to conclusions as to exactly what it means. Second-guessing the Lord is never a good idea. Asking him is always the best policy.

I'm no mathematician, but I'd say less than half the alcohol content is substantially lower.

mathonihah · February 8, 2013

I'm no mathematician, but I'd say less than half the alcohol content is substantially lower.

I think that you need to explain that a bit more!

Ahab · February 8, 2013

My problem with that is that I don't know whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.

I was simply trying to share what our Lord has told me when we have talked about that issue.

The Nehor · February 8, 2013

My stake president is more a traditionalist on this point. The Elder's Quorum Annual Kegger is this weekend.

mathonihah · February 8, 2013

I was simply trying to share what our Lord has told me when we have talked about that issue.

Since you were responding to my post, I would still like to know whether you were agreeing with me or disagreeing.

As an aside, while you were discussing the subject with the Lord, did you obtain a recipe from him on how to make "mild drinks"? I think that if the Lord is willing to tell us that "mild drinks" made form various types of grain are good for us, he should be wiling to tell us how to make them. I think that is a very reasonable expectation. I think that Joseph Smith neglected to ask him. I would dearly like to know what the Lord's answer to that question is.

The Nehor · February 8, 2013

Since you were responding to my post, I would still like to know whether you were agreeing with me or disagreeing.
As an aside, while you were discussing the subject with the Lord, did you obtain a recipe from him on how to make "mild drinks"? I think that if the Lord is willing to tell us that "mild drinks" made form various types of grain are good for us, he should be wiling to tell us how to make them. I think that is a very reasonable expectation. I think that Joseph Smith neglected to ask him. I would dearly like to know what the Lord's answer to that question is.

Probably that disgusting herbal tea. I do not want a recipe.

Ahab · February 8, 2013

Probably that disgusting herbal tea. I do not want a recipe.

Put sugar in it. That usually makes it taste better.

Scott Lloyd · February 8, 2013

Since you were responding to my post, I would still like to know whether you were agreeing with me or disagreeing.
As an aside, while you were discussing the subject with the Lord, did you obtain a recipe from him on how to make "mild drinks"? I think that if the Lord is willing to tell us that "mild drinks" made form various types of grain are good for us, he should be wiling to tell us how to make them. I think that is a very reasonable expectation. I think that Joseph Smith neglected to ask him. I would dearly like to know what the Lord's answer to that question is.

I enjoy Postum™. It's quite mild, and it's a grain beverage. It has a time-honored history among the Latter-day Saints. In the old days, it was advertised in the Improvment Era.

In recent times, sales fell off so much that the manufacturer, Kraft Foods, discontinued it.

It's back, though. Somebody else came along, bought the license, and replicated the recipe.

I have two jars at home, one I bought via the Internet and the other from the grocery store. I don't drink it straight so much anymore. I mix it with hot chocolate. Very satisfying.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

Ahab · February 8, 2013

I enjoy Postum™. It's quite mild, and it's a grain beverage. It has a time-honored history among the Latter-day Saints. In the old days, it was advertised in the Improvment Era.
In recent times, sales fell off so much that the manufacturer, Kraft Foods, discontinued it.
It's back, though. Somebody else came along, bought the license, and replicated the recipe.
I have two jars at home, one I bought via the Internet and the other from the grocery store. I drink it straight so much anymore. I mix it with hot chocolate. Very satisfying.

THANK YOU for sharing this info! I had no idea it was back!

Much better than this pero stuff I've been drinking since it was discontinued. I think I may order a case.

mathonihah · February 8, 2013

Probably that disgusting herbal tea. I do not want a recipe.

I enjoy Postum™. It's quite mild, and it's a grain beverage. It has a time-honored history among the Latter-day Saints. In the old days, it was advertised in the Improvment Era.
In recent times, sales fell off so much that the manufacturer, Kraft Foods, discontinued it.
It's back, though. Somebody else came along, bought the license, and replicated the recipe.
I have two jars at home, one I bought via the Internet and the other from the grocery store. I drink it straight so much anymore. I mix it with hot chocolate. Very satisfying.

That still doesn't tell us what the Lord's answer to that question would be though. That is what I am really interested in.

Ahab · February 8, 2013

That still doesn't tell us what the Lord's answer to that question would be though. That is what I am really interested in.

I've already shared what the Lord has told me.

I know I'm a second-hand witness in your perspective, but if that isn't good enough for you then become a first-hand winess like I am from my perspective and get your own answer from the Lord, personally.

Makes perfect sense, reasonably, to me. Mild is between soft and hard, so what can you imagine that's between a soft drink (soda pop) and hard liquor, and made with barley?

I've made and still enjoy making root better, too, with yeast and sugar, and it doesn't take very long before it starts to get a little kick to it.

jerm · February 9, 2013

Question for those who believe that the Word of Wisdom in its original form permits the drinking of beer. The wording of the revelation is clearly antithetical to the drinking of wine; and puts it on the same level as "strong drinks":
"That inasmuch as any man drinketh
wine or strong drink
among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him." (D&C 89:5)
Now the percentage alcohol in beer is not substantially lower than wine. There are different kinds of both of course. Some beers even have a higher percentage of alcohol than some types of wine. But on average wine contains between 12.5% and 14.5% alcohol, whereas beer contains on average between 4% and 6% alcohol (see here and here for more information). But beer is normally consumed in much greater quantities than wine. It is considered a "thirst quencher". Hence an average beer drinker probably consumes the same quantity of alcohol as an average wine drinker. But if wine is prohibited, what makes you think that beer should be allowed?

Just doing a little math here but from the alcoholic content you have provided, you are probably right that people tend to drink roughly the same amount of alcohol regardless of their drink of choice. I think generally people who don't abuse alcohol are satisfied when they reach the buzz they want to feel... but that's not the only reason people historically drank beer. Back when calories were a bit more scarce and people burned them more, a beer in the evening was probably a good suplement especially if there wasn't much food on the table.

"Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain." (D&C 89:17)
I am not at all sure this must necessarily refer to beer. Unless somebody actually inquires from the Lord, and obtain a revelation to that effect (or better still, a recipe for how that kind of drink should be made!), I think it is presumptuous of any of us to jump to conclusions as to exactly what it means. Second-guessing the Lord is never a good idea. Asking him is always the best policy.

Its not second guessing, its using the context of the time. Mild drinks made from barley would have been interpreted (and was apparently) as beer. We don't need God to give us a recipe when we already knew how to make it.

There's a common misunderstanding of the quote from v. 5. "Sacraments" is plural and did not only mean THE Sacrament. "Strong drink" referred to the early washings and annointings where after washing, hard liquor like whiskey was used with frangrance in the temple. Strong drink does not refer to beer here as there is no "sacrament" where beer was used. Therefore, in this verse, beer is not prohibited. This makes the mild drinks from barley and other grain in v.17 quite clearly not prohibiting beer. Sorry to say but Postum wasn't created until the 20th century and would have been against the WoW at the time as it is a "hot drink".

mathonihah · February 9, 2013

I've already shared what the Lord has told me.
I know I'm a second-hand witness in your perspective, but if that isn't good enough for you then become a first-hand winess like I am from my perspective and get your own answer from the Lord, personally.
Makes perfect sense, reasonably, to me. Mild is between soft and hard, so what can you imagine that's between a soft drink (soda pop) and hard liquor, and made with barley?

It sounds like the Lord might have been pulling your leg. In the days of Joseph Smith the term "soft drink" (to be distinguished from "hard"—meaning alcoholic—"drink") had not yet been invented. In came into use during the Prohibition (1920-1933), to distinguish non-alcoholic from alcoholic drinks. See here for its etymology. In the days of Joseph Smith, "mild drink" was equivalent to what today we call "soft drink"—i.e. non-alcoholic drink.

The Nehor · February 9, 2013

That still doesn't tell us what the Lord's answer to that question would be though. That is what I am really interested in.

As far as I know He does not post here.

mathonihah · February 9, 2013

Just doing a little math here but from the alcoholic content you have provided, you are probably right that people tend to drink roughly the same amount of alcohol regardless of their drink of choice. I think generally people who don't abuse alcohol are satisfied when they reach the buzz they want to feel... but that's not the only reason people historically drank beer. Back when calories were a bit more scarce and people burned them more, a beer in the evening was probably a good suplement especially if there wasn't much food on the table.
Its not second guessing, its using the context of the time. Mild drinks made from barley would have been interpreted (and was apparently) as beer. We don't need God to give us a recipe when we already knew how to make it.
There's a common misunderstanding of the quote from v. 5. "Sacraments" is plural and did not only mean THE Sacrament. "Strong drink" referred to the early washings and annointings where after washing, hard liquor like whiskey was used with frangrance in the temple. Strong drink does not refer to beer here as there is no "sacrament" where beer was used. Therefore, in this verse, beer is not prohibited. This makes the mild drinks from barley and other grain in v.17 quite clearly not prohibiting beer. Sorry to say but Postum wasn't created until the 20th century and would have been against the WoW at the time as it is a "hot drink".

Wow! I think you have ventured way off the mark into the realm of wild speculation. I am a conservative individual. I don't dabble in speculation.

mathonihah · February 9, 2013

As far as I know He does not post here.

Agreed; but some people seem think they can post on his behalf though!

jerm · February 9, 2013

Wow! I think you have ventured way off the mark into the realm of wild speculation. I am a conservative individual. I don't dabble in speculation.

Yet you speculate that "mild drinks" referred to non-alcoholic drinks when the evidence is highly against that interpretation. Even FAIR acknowleges this:

Word of Wisdom/History and implementation

The text of the Word of Wisdom forbids "strong drink" (D&C 89:5, 7), which was initially interpreted as distilled beverages (hard liquor). Beer, unfermented or lightly fermented wine, and cider were considered "mild drinks" (D&C 89:17) and therefore acceptable (note that verse 17 specifically permits "barley...for mild drinks").

Where did I actually speculate?

Ahab · February 9, 2013

It sounds like the Lord might have been pulling your leg. In the days of Joseph Smith the term "soft drink" (to be distinguished from "hard"—meaning alcoholic—"drink") had not yet been invented. In came into use during the Prohibition (1920-1933), to distinguish non-alcoholic from alcoholic drinks. See here for its etymology. In the days of Joseph Smith, "mild drink" was equivalent to what today we call "soft drink"—i.e. non-alcoholic drink.

Yes, and back then they used yeast and some type of sugar to make those drinks, much like I use those things when I make root beer, or ginger beer, or sarsparilla, or many other drinks I make using yeast and sugar. I have a fairly big book of old fashioned recipes like that, and I know what they make and made.

And I also know it doesn't take very long before the yeast and sugar give the drink a little kick, before it becomes "hard". They made big batches of the stuff, when they made it. That is what the Lord was referring to when he referred to what Joseph called mild drinks.

Maidservant · February 9, 2013

I enjoy Postum™. It's quite mild, and it's a grain beverage. It has a time-honored history among the Latter-day Saints. In the old days, it was advertised in the Improvment Era.
In recent times, sales fell off so much that the manufacturer, Kraft Foods, discontinued it.
It's back, though. Somebody else came along, bought the license, and replicated the recipe.
I have two jars at home, one I bought via the Internet and the other from the grocery store. I don't drink it straight so much anymore. I mix it with hot chocolate. Very satisfying.

I have an unopened jar of Postum that I will cash in for a million dollars in a couple of decades, ha ha.

Alcohol has the potential to destroy families. In my understanding, it also removes our ability to be tuned to the spirit.

If our leaders have it as part of the temple recommend interview, it is revelatory, it is what the Lord wants us to live, unless someone's point is that our leaders 'heard wrong'.

Scott Lloyd · February 9, 2013

I have an unopened jar of Postum that I will cash in for a million dollars in a couple of decades, ha ha.

It may have less market value now that Eliza's Quest has brought the product back.

Scott Lloyd · February 9, 2013

Sorry to say but Postum wasn't created until the 20th century and would have been against the WoW at the time as it is a "hot drink".

I hope you don't think I was serious in bringing up Postum.

I question, though, whether it would have been prohibited. It is no more like coffee or tea than are herbal beverages.

Calm · February 9, 2013

. Mild is between soft and hard, so what can you imagine that's between a soft drink (soda pop) and hard liquor, and made with barley?

They didn't have carbonated soft drinks back then in the US, not until the 1870s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_drink

mathonihah · February 9, 2013

Yet you speculate that "mild drinks" referred to non-alcoholic drinks when the evidence is highly against that interpretation. Even FAIR acknowleges this:
Word of Wisdom/History and implementation

That article is clearly wrong, because it identifies wine as a mild drink, which is forbidden in the Word of Wisdom. If beer and wine are both “mild” drinks, how come one is forbidden and the other allowed?

Where did I actually speculate?

The last two paragraphs. There is only one kind of sacrsment where wine was used, and that was THE Sacrsment.

Distiller liqueurs were not used for temple washings. It is a disinfectant which can be used for the washing of wounds. That is what the Word of Wisdom is referring to by the “washing of your bodies”.

And if wine is classified as mild drink, and is forbidden, then so would be beer, which would fall into the same category.

Edited February 9, 2013 by mathonihah

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