Vicarious Atonement Through Human Sacrifice

[CV75]

But how can you know this is not just human cultural demands for justice and that was imputed to God? Why does a perfect being demand blood for payment for breaking his laws? Where did this requirement come from? It seems that such a powerful being can forgive someone who is truly penetrant without shedding blood. I can forgive one of my children without having to beat them.

The shedding of God’s blood comes from His doing the maximum and ultimate level of work that He can do in mortality. This is how much work it takes to undo all the ungodly work we have done in mortality. Imagine yourself working so hard that you shed blood from every pore; God this this many times over.

For what purpose would you be motivated to voluntarily work so hard? God had His reasons as well, which were to restore everything that He created physically and that we ruined. Because we are dealing with mortality, everything must be done in a mortal frame of reference, hence the physical and spiritual labors and the resulting shedding of blood (God’s mortal blood). Since the Fall of Adam, blood sustains His children’s physical life, and their spirits sustain their spiritual life, and the same was so for Jesus.

Now of course in a non-mortal sphere, God can perform what you suggest—undo all the ungodly work His children can do (for example, in the pre-mortal life) without becoming mortal and shedding blood. He simply had to cast them out of His presence. But for the rest of us, a lot of work had to be done.

[Tacenda]

Do you think that Jesus had a veil covering his eyes growing up as we have? And slowly it was uncovered. And in the garden he was still in the human/mortal frame of mind when he asked to have the bitter cup removed or is it that he knew what had to be done but felt God turned his back on him in a way that was needed for both to go through it. God needed to not watch or couldn't, too unbearable. And part of Jesus' pain was watching his father turn away, bitter cup.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Tacenda

[CV75]

Do you think that Jesus had a veil covering his eyes growing up as we have? And slowly it was uncovered. And in the garden he was still in the human/mortal frame of mind when he asked to have the bitter cup removed or is it that he knew what had to be done but felt God turned his back on him in a way that was needed for both to go through it. God needed to not watch or couldn't, too unbearable. And part of Jesus' pain was watching his father turn away, bitter cup.

I think he had the Veil as we do, and progressed grace for grace just as we are invited to do (or as we also do, but without backsliding).

Since spiritual growth is not a removal of that Veil but rather a means to live with it, I think that it is very possible that He did not come to a point to live without the Veil, though I do think that in the occasional, revelatory instance He might have been allowed to see through it (as sometimes the rest of us are).

I believe His submissively conditional statement about having the cup removed (which, looking carefully at the phrasing I don’t see it as a plea or a request*) was certainly a matter of His enduring mortal life with the veil (I sometimes think Matthew 26: 41 was about the disciples praying for Him because His spirit was willing but His flesh weak.). I don’t think His prayer to the Father indicated that He felt the Father turned His back on Him, but I do see it as acknowledgement that They were aligned on this together. I think it was necessary for Jesus to know and follow His Father’s will in order to be able to go through with what transpired in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Some believe that at some point, the Father turned away, either to complete the Son’s decent below all things in payment of the price of sin, or because He could not bear to see His son suffer so. I’m sure the Father felt both these things (a sense of justice and a sense of sorrow), but I do not think He either turned away to feel these things or that He had to be the one to turn away to bring on Jesus' suffering. I think Jesus' spiritual separation and distance from the Father was a condition of the spiritual death He suffered that was brought on by the nature of the work He had to accomplish.

*

“…if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

“…if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt….if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.”

“…take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.”

Edited January 20, 2013 by CV75

[Maidservant]

Why can't God just forgive the penitent soul? Why does someone's blood have to be shed?

But how can you know this is not just human cultural demands for justice and that was imputed to God? Why does a perfect being demand blood for payment for breaking his laws? Where did this requirement come from? It seems that such a powerful being can forgive someone who is truly penetrant without shedding blood. I can forgive one of my children without having to beat them.

I don't have a full answer, but just now even reading through one of Kevin Christiansen's links to a Margaret Barker and the point she makes that blood is LIFE. In our way of thinking, blood is usually associated with DEATH. This was a new thought to me, reading this article. So again I don't know, but I think there is a lot in the atonement symbolism that we need to educate ourselves on before we can make real objections or questions (talking about myself), because until we have more knowledge, I daresay we are objecting or questioning what isn't even there (only our cultural paradigms at the moment in relation to the reality).

The shedding of God’s blood comes from His doing the maximum and ultimate level of work that He can do in mortality. This is how much work it takes to undo all the ungodly work we have done in mortality. Imagine yourself working so hard that you shed blood from every pore; God this this many times over.

For what purpose would you be motivated to voluntarily work so hard? God had His reasons as well, which were to restore everything that He created physically and that we ruined. Because we are dealing with mortality, everything must be done in a mortal frame of reference, hence the physical and spiritual labors and the resulting shedding of blood (God’s mortal blood). Since the Fall of Adam, blood sustains His children’s physical life, and their spirits sustain their spiritual life, and the same was so for Jesus.

Now of course in a non-mortal sphere, God can perform what you suggest—undo all the ungodly work His children can do (for example, in the pre-mortal life) without becoming mortal and shedding blood. He simply had to cast them out of His presence. But for the rest of us, a lot of work had to be done.

I always love your thinking, and here are some thoughts that came to me as I read what you wrote.

We are the drops of his blood. We are the blood that was shed. We are currently in Gethsemane (and Christ is bearing us).

I absolutely disagree that we ruined anything. I think this is one of the very elements that we often accept that thereafter also skews the idea of the necessity of an atonement and what it really is (or in my opinion). When I think about ourselves in our life before this mortal realm, and as we prepared to enter the waters of baptism (i.e. enter mortality through birth and experience the attendant struggle and transformation to the holy order after the son of God), we more or less knew exactly what we were doing (sort of; being told about a roller coaster and learning about a roller coaster and being trained on the little roller coasters is not the same thing as actually riding the big momma roller coaster). But we had a thorough understanding, more than we have access to now, about the purpose of our life here and we took this step deliberately. It is necessary for our progression; nothing was ruined. It is a sacred ordinance that we participate in, to be here and to be changing like a caterpillar in a chrysalis. Yes, the caterpillar may be completely destroyed, but we don't cry on that, because we know the purpose of that is the creation of the butterfly.

Blood is life, not death. Ponder a lot on the Sacrament ritual.

[mfbukowski]

We are the drops of his blood. We are the blood that was shed. We are currently in Gethsemane (and Christ is bearing us).

Beautiful!

[CV75]

Blood is life, not death. Ponder a lot on the Sacrament ritual.

I agree that we knew what we would do, but I think part of this was to know that we would ruin things for ourselves until we repented. There are others who knew they would not ruin anything, only by dying without accountability (and I suppose they knew they would ruin everything too if they attempted to carry out all that Christ was chosen to do).

Yes, blood is life, but not all life is life. Blood is obviously our mortal life and represents what we can do with it (both good and bad, but which is ultimately deadly), and when in Christ’s veins (who only did good), blood is the key to our eternal life. I’ve always liked Moses 6:59-60, “That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified…”

We are born into mortality (which mortal life is really a slow death) by water (the Earth’s), blood (Adam and Eve’s) and spirit (ours). In this case, blood is only temporary, physical life. We are also spiritually born again in mortality of water (the work of and faith in baptism), Spirit (the work of and faith in confirmation) and Jesus’ blood (the work of and faith in the sacrifice of His mortal life). When we are baptized of water and of the Holy Ghost and hold to the Gift of the Holy Ghost, we are forgiven, and as we are forgiven, we can receive grace for grace and become pure through the blood of Christ.

Christ was alive in mortality by virtue of His mortal blood, and by virtue of His godly Spirit was able to spill it and give it up in our behalf, and then convert it into eternal life. Without His becoming mortal and carrying out His mission, our mortal blood would serve nothing but to keep us alive for a lifetime.

[wenglund]

It has been my experience that the full effects of the atonement often must wait until this life is over. Somehow the Savior will wipe away every tear. I cannot figure out how but He promised.

I agree that all the tears will be wiped away. I just don't see the atonement as somehow physical eliminating actions of the past--i.e. un-ringing the bell. The mortal Christ, himself, is the progeny of at least one adulterous affair. If that affair were somehow physically erased, then wouldn't that eliminate Christ from the space/time continuum?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited January 21, 2013 by wenglund

[Hamba Tuhan]

Meanwhile, those who avail themselves of the Atonement know from firsthand experience that it actually works as promised.

[mfbukowski]

Meanwhile, those who avail themselves of the Atonement know from firsthand experience that it actually works as promised.

Absolutely, and that is all that matters in the long run!

[Maidservant]

I agree that all the tears will be wiped away. I just don't see the atonement as somehow physical eliminating actions of the past--i.e. un-ringing the bell. The mortal Christ, himself, is the progeny of at least one adulterous affair. If that affair were somehow physically erased, then wouldn't that eliminate Christ from the space/time continuum?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Actually, right or wrong, I know exactly where Brother Wade is coming from and I think something similar (at least presently; no doubt God will continue to lead me in my understanding). One of the strongest experiences in my life is that there are things you can lose that cannot be returned to you. I hope I learn differently some day, but this is what I have learned thus far. So whatever the atonement is, it's not that; or as I can see right now; Father, open my eyes to whatever you want me to see.

On the other hand, I have also been raised from the dead, spiritually. I have been brought forth from a place I believed God would not want to even be mucking about in to find me--I supposed that he could, but I did not suppose that he would. At yet here I am, he has plucked me out, and made me his. It is not just that he has saved me or approved me for some future bliss. It is that he owns me and he knows me and I am his and he is mine. It is not about knowing what is true or not, or having a testimony or not. It is that I know who I belong to; and this binding is constant whether I fail or succeed on the axis of, say, commandments. If I fail, I know who sees me and who comes after me. If I succed, I know who laughs and cries with me. Often I thank my Beloved in my prayers this way: "Thank you for leading me thus far." These lyrics also are the story: "Here I raise my Ebenezer; hither by thy help I'm come. And I hope by thy good pleasure safely to arrive at home. Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. Here's my heart--Oh! take and seal it! Seal it for thy courts above."

[Tacenda]

Actually, right or wrong, I know exactly where Brother Wade is coming from and I think something similar (at least presently; no doubt God will continue to lead me in my understanding). One of the strongest experiences in my life is that there are things you can lose that cannot be returned to you. I hope I learn differently some day, but this is what I have learned thus far. So whatever the atonement is, it's not that; or as I can see right now; Father, open my eyes to whatever you want me to see.

On the other hand, I have also been raised from the dead, spiritually. I have been brought forth from a place I believed God would not want to even be mucking about in to find me--I supposed that he could, but I did not suppose that he would. At yet here I am, he has plucked me out, and made me his. It is not just that he has saved me or approved me for some future bliss. It is that he owns me and he knows me and I am his and he is mine. It is not about knowing what is true or not, or having a testimony or not. It is that I know who I belong to; and this binding is constant whether I fail or succeed on the axis of, say, commandments. If I fail, I know who sees me and who comes after me. If I succed, I know who laughs and cries with me. Often I thank my Beloved in my prayers this way: "Thank you for leading me thus far." These lyrics also are the story: "Here I raise my Ebenezer; hither by thy help I'm come. And I hope by thy good pleasure safely to arrive at home. Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. Here's my heart--Oh! take and seal it! Seal it for thy courts above."

Stunning

[Hamba Tuhan]

It is that I know who I belong to; and this binding is constant whether I fail or succeed on the axis of, say, commandments. If I fail, I know who sees me and who comes after me. If I succed, I know who laughs and cries with me.

Amen! Probably at least once a month I have a prayer which basically consists of my stating emphatically to Heavenly Father that I am His through Christ, bound to Him by both love and covenant, and that I have no intention of ever belonging to anyone else regardless of all my wanderings and failings.

These lyrics also are the story: "Here I raise my Ebenezer; hither by thy help I'm come. And I hope by thy good pleasure safely to arrive at home. Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. Here's my heart--Oh! take and seal it! Seal it for thy courts above."

Words I sing in the shower, whilst ironing, etc. I introduced this song to one of the Young Men I helped come back to church and prepare to serve a mission. When he spoke in our sacrament meeting before leaving for the MTC back in August, this was the musical item I'd arranged for him. When I broke fast with his now-active family three Sundays ago, this was the song we listened to over and over again as we ate. Nothing better than being bound to Him!

[TAO]

I don't know what it is, but I have never found a Mormon who was averse to' Come Thou Font of Every Blessing'. It's like close to universally liked... and we didn't even write it =).

Edited January 22, 2013 by TAO

[mfbukowski]

I don't know what it is, but I have never found a Mormon who was averse to' Come Thou Font of Every Blessing'. It's like close to universally liked... and we didn't even write it =).

It simply does not get better than this.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That's ok, GG. It's good for you to keep me on my toes. All my years of reading things in Mormonism should or would have been better spent reading the word of God. I need my Saviour's sacrifice more than ever now for not striving to KNOW Him through prayer and scripture study but instead wasting time in research on the web. Your heart and desires have been in the right place, with your service in the temple for example, you've got your priorities right.

Than look in 2 Nephi 9-10 amd know all about justie and mercy. The best two books on the Atonement and what it means to us and how we are saved ever written. I have read it 100's of times and get more from it each time. My favorite scripture in the two books is 2 Nephi 9: 41, I could spend hours teaching this one scripture. The net will always be a poor substitution for the scriptures.

[BlueDreams]

This is pretty late in the game and I’m sure someone has probably mentioned these before, but I would like to mention a few of my thoughts from the OP.

I personally see some problems about the underlying assumptions that are mentions.

The most important underlying premise to the plan of salvation and the atonement is that central to all is relationships….the initial part is focused too much on an idea of freedom/individualism. And it’s not free agency, but agency. It’s not so much that we are sinning against some unforeseen cosmic/divine line or law. It’s that it harms the relationships we have with God. All things, in LDS theology are interlinked. Man sinned and would not hear Him and it hurt not only him, but all that is (eternity wept, the earth groaned, etc…see Moses 7).

So it’s not so much about cleaning up or paying for your old sins but more for restoring a broken relationship. In order to do that Christ needed the power to change and heal us/that relationship. He needed power over those things that hold us back (sin and death). The way to do so could only be experiential and to overcome to lay claim and power and authority over all things.

On the individual level, it’s less about somehow lifting responsibility for what is done, as though one is erasing the past. It’s about changing the individual so they are no longer that past. They are something new. The idea follows more of a western means to time where it is linear, follow one moment after the other. But it’s more like a heart beat; a pattern. It isn’t that Christ erases the past, He entirely alters you as a pattern. Instead of the erratic, poor pattern that we follow, we are cleansed so that our pattern is different....its just not us any longer. It’s like threading a pattern into a tapestry. The threads have become bunched and messy. The threads are pulled out carefully rethreaded to a clean and solid pattern. It’s not an erasure, it’s a change. That old pattern is not apart of the new one, the threads have changed and their past is irrelevant.

We are changed in Christ. Not by an erasure/substitution but by an aligning of our ways to the Lord and taking on his name and all that he is. The Atonement is restoring that torn relationship, one thread at a time. The more we trust and place ourselves in His hand, the greater the force of the atonement has to change us. The more we align. The more our sins are simply no longer there.

With luv,

BD

[CV75]

The Atonement is restoring that torn relationship, one thread at a time.

How true! Once our relationship with God is mended, we forgive others and they forgive us, so our sins don't mean anything to anyone (within the bond of the Atonement) anymore, and our power to do good is innumerably multiplied.

[pogi]

But how can you know this is not just human cultural demands for justice and that was imputed to God?

The same way I can know that God exists - I ask, he answers.

Why does a perfect being demand blood for payment for breaking his laws? Where did this requirement come from? It seems that such a powerful being can forgive someone who is truly penetrant without shedding blood. I can forgive one of my children without having to beat them.

Sin equals death. Spiritual death and physical death are the consequences of sin. This is according to the eternal law of justice that none can escape. The atonement conquered death in a way we could not do on our own. The sting of death was swallowed up in Christ, both physically and spiritually speaking.

You may be able to forgive your son, but can go into his heart and remove the shame from him? Can you erase the consequences of his guilt? Can you know exactly what he knows and offer a perfect empathy and compassion? Can you heal his wounds and his heart that he cannot heal on his own? Can you heal not only his emotional/spiritual infirmities, but also his physical infirmities? When he is laid down to rest, can you raise his body to life and immortality. Can you offer him eternal life with God by overcoming spiritual and physical death? The atonement is so much more than forgiveness.

Edited January 25, 2013 by pogi

[savedbygrace]

I don't know why this is being debated as the OP stated that he doesn't believe God exists, so that's it end of discussion, to carry on in the face of that statement is just hot air. If God doesn't exist then we are all deluded, and have no answers to anything. If there is no God there is no sin, no need for atonement, end of

[Five Solas]

Sethbag—

Would it make any difference to your understanding/critique of the Atonement if the person who died on the cross was the Eternal, Uncreated God, who entered human history as a man (the Incarnation)?

I realize this isn’t what LDS believe concerning Jesus, because Jesus is an “organized intelligence”—same as you or me. So an “atonement” in LDS theology effectively is me paying for your sin or vice-versa. In an LDS context, your critique/concerns seem spot on. But do you think your critique makes sense outside of the LDS interpretation of Jesus?

--Erik

[volgadon]

Sethbag—

Would it make any difference to your understanding/critique of the Atonement if the person who died on the cross was the Eternal, Uncreated God, who entered human history as a man (the Incarnation)?

I realize this isn’t what LDS believe concerning Jesus, because Jesus is an “organized intelligence”—same as you or me. So an “atonement” in LDS theology effectively is me paying for your sin or vice-versa. In an LDS context, your critique/concerns seem spot on. But do you think your critique makes sense outside of the LDS interpretation of Jesus?

--Erik

Nonsense. You are still insisting on reading our theology like yours, the quotation marks notwithstanding.

[Five Solas]

Nonsense. You are still insisting on reading our theology like yours, the quotation marks notwithstanding.

Hey volgadon--

Per your post on the other thread (I moved here because someone suggested it was redundant), I agree that the very concept of "organized intelligences" would change the game vis-a-vis Christianity. (Honestly, I haven't gotten much further than that, though.)

But what hasn't been explained so far is the implication (of who Jesus really is/was) on the Atonement. And it seems that the implication is large.

Do you agree with me that who Jesus is makes a difference to Sethbag's argument?

--Erik

[volgadon]

Hey volgadon--

Per your post on the other thread (I moved here because someone suggested it was redundant), I agree that the very concept of "organized intelligences" would change the game vis-a-vis Christianity. (Honestly, I haven't gotten much further than that, though.)

But what hasn't been explained so far is the implication (of who Jesus really is/was) on the Atonement. And it seems that the implication is large.

That there is not an ontological difference between God and man doesn't mean there isn't a qualitative difference. God and Jesus are always going to be greater than you or I. Jesus created and governs the world. He was and is God, having power over life and death, and he came to this earth in the flesh. Only he could destroy death and sin.

Do you agree with me that who Jesus is makes a difference to Sethbag's argument?

--Erik

We believe Jesus is God. That is all the difference it should make.

[Five Solas]

Basically you're saying it doesn't really matter, volgadon. Whether Jesus is the Eternal, Uncreated God. Whether Jesus is an "organized intelligence"--ontologically no different that you and me. As far as the Atonement is concerned, it's six of one, half dozen the other. Kinda blows my mind anyone could think that. But maybe that just goes to prove my unworthiness.

;0)

But I do appreciate your time. And hopefully we'll get some additional perspectives (including Sethbag's).

--Erik

[mfbukowski]

Sethbag—

Would it make any difference to your understanding/critique of the Atonement if the person who died on the cross was the Eternal, Uncreated God, who entered human history as a man (the Incarnation)?

I realize this isn’t what LDS believe concerning Jesus, because Jesus is an “organized intelligence”—same as you or me. So an “atonement” in LDS theology effectively is me paying for your sin or vice-versa. In an LDS context, your critique/concerns seem spot on. But do you think your critique makes sense outside of the LDS interpretation of Jesus?

--Erik

Are you being intentionally totally rude about our beliefs or are you really that ignorant?