Church Making Further Movements Toward Respect For Gay Members

[Deborah]

The important thing in all of this is that we love one another and accept each person as a child of God. There are many challenges in this life and believe it or not SSA is not the most difficult in my opinion. How would you like to have cerebral palsy or any of the numerous other afflictions which cause your body to deteriorate and not do what you want it to do. At least with SSA you still have a choice in how you behave. A person with Turrette's Syndrome may not have that choice.

[Saints Alive]

I always wonder where this originated because it creates a false impression that anyone who is born with any affliction isn't a mistake but deliberately made that way.

Some even go so far as to say rape is gods will, glad I don't believe in a god like that

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I always wonder where this originated because it creates a false impression that anyone who is born with any affliction isn't a mistake but deliberately made that way. I'd rather think that God allows us to come to this mortal earth where the imperfections of mortality allow mistakes to be made, either genetically or otherwise. I do not think for a moment God deliberately made us with certain hadicaps or difficulties but he allowed to come experience these things so that we can overcome them as much as possible in this life to move forward and be perfected in the next.

He made us all complicated.

[tyler90az]

The important thing in all of this is that we love one another and accept each person as a child of God. There are many challenges in this life and believe it or not SSA is not the most difficult in my opinion. How would you like to have cerebral palsy or any of the numerous other afflictions which cause your body to deteriorate and not do what you want it to do. At least with SSA you still have a choice in how you behave. A person with Turrette's Syndrome may not have that choice.

You are right about that, those are more difficult challenges. I was saying being gay is the most difficult sin. It is easier not to commit other sins that one may have. It is the only sin that you do not have a choice in the matter. It is similar to trying to tell yourself never to eat or drink water.

[TAO]

Seriously? We are talking about consenting adults here.

The age of adulthood is an arbitrary number. Not to mention children can 'consent' as well... it's just that they aren't considered adults. In other words, the law is entirely arbitrary =/.

So yeh, it's distateful... but also something that has to be considered, no?

Edited October 29, 2012 by TAO

[TAO]

that's NAMBLA argument anyway... However I don't think it's fair in this instance to compare homosexuality and pedophilia.

Mmm.... I'm not sure it is either, in any case. But it is a good example at how arbitrary law is.

[wenglund]

Us Mormons have what I refer to as a procreative theology. Procreation is a central and fundamental component of our divine nature. That which undermines our divine potential is sin... therefore, homosexuality (which is non-procreative) is sin. Conversely, polygamy seems to have been considered a more divine life in part of the enhanced procreative capacity (we still have those who claim polygamy is necessary for celestial inheritance).

If we have not maximized our divine nature we can not get to the celestial kingdom.

There are a few things happening to challenge this.

One of the major challenges is science. Japanese scientists have recently taken skin cells from mice and created eggs and sperm, fertilized them and produced off spring. Only a decade or two before we can do that for humans. As such the necessity for sex as a necessary part (of celestial) procreation will be false.

Any thing we can do god can do better. If we can make babies without sex so can god.

This will be a major challenge to the current theological status quo.

You might be correct if things are as overly simplistic as you stated them. If we Mormons have anything approximating a theology, it would be a familial theology, where procreation, however it may occur, is merely but a part. While science may yet offer up alternative or artificial means of procreate, this will not alter the divine familial structure of father, mother, and children.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 29, 2012 by wenglund

[USU78]

I hope this is true! Kudos for doing what is right and showing that decency exists among us yet again. If any people on this earth should be decnt, it should surely be the Saints of God.

Sounds like an insult hiding amongst all that applause.

Hmmmmm.

Maybe I missed the point?

[wenglund]

For those who haven't read my comments on this before, I'm a gay member of the Church with a temple recommend, in good standing, etc.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that the General Authorities realize how difficult they are making it for me to stay content with celibacy. The Church is getting more and more family-centric, with things about the family being the ultimate source of joy in life, them being together forever, the importance of parenting, etc. I can't identify with much of that, and the only consolation I got during the previous general conference were things to the effect of "we feel sorry for those of you with SSA and don't hate you.". I don't feel hated. I don't feel inherently sinful. If the Church is trying to make me not feel bad about being gay, then it is doing a good job. However, it's doing a terrible job helping me feel content. Can't the ultimate source of joy in life be something that everyone willing to obey the commandments has equal access to?

Take this quote I found on the Newsroom website: "If you are faithful, on resurrection morning—and maybe even before then—you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex. Some of you may wonder if that doctrine is too good to be true." That doesn't sound too good to be true at all. The idea of being changed in such a personal way like that almost sounds frightening, which is why I have no intention of even considering conversion therapy. At the same time, I don't want there to be a change in doctrine to make SSM possible, as the doctrinal shift this would necessitate would be so comprehensive that I would lose faith in and abandon the Church, and probably belief in God along with it. It wouldn't even be possible to construct a logical argument stating that the change wasn't a godless PR move, as can be done with the two official declarations.

In other words, I will probably never be completely happy.

The less you define yourself by your sexual attraction, and define yourself more by the Christlike attributes and character you already have and may magnify or yet obtain, the greater your potential for experiencing overwhelming godly joy in this life and beyond. You can take this from a heterosexual who in mid-life has yet to realize the full measure of his creation--i.e. who has yet to enter the sacred bonds of marriage (as God defines the term). In other words, this is from one celibate to another.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Lest there be any confusion, if the Church has recently made any move in relation to homosexuality, it has most assuredly been to better assist members with SSA in becoming like Christ, and not counter-productively towards liberalizing its position on homosexual behavior as a sin. The Church and the restored gospel are divinely designed to facilitate progression rather than digression.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

It is the only sin that you do not have a choice in the matter.

I highly doubt that.

[tyler90az]

I highly doubt that.

You are right! A kid who chose to be gay does not want to be gay.

Edited October 29, 2012 by tyler90az

[wenglund]

It is the only sin that you do not have a choice in the matter. It is similar to trying to tell yourself never to eat or drink water.

Even if one grants, for the sake of argument, that SSA is solely a function of nature/genetics (and in that limited sense it may be said that there is "no choice in the matter"), there are still at least two substantial problems with your statement. First, it is not the only sin that has been attributed to nature. In fact, scientists have attributed the disproportionate rate of promiscuity and infidelity of men to the natural inclination of men to spread their seed. Second, even if SSA is nature based, this doesn't eliminate one's ability to choose how meaningful and significant it is in their lives. In various ways they can choose to render the attraction relatively meaning and insignificant. As such, it is absurd to compare SSA with choosing to eat or drink, since no one's life is in the least bit put at risk by not acting on SSA, and may even be put at risk by acting on SSA.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Flyonthewall]

I knew someone who suffered from depression all their life. Their thought processes were very pessimistic, and though not suicidal, thought death would be a welcome change - at least then their depressive thoughts would be at an end.

They never sought help for their depression, thought they would simply deal with it.

You could say that depression became part and parcel to who they are.

Around age 35 or so, it got bad enough, and with some encouragement from family and freinds, they finally got help.

After the effects of the anti-depressant kicked in their comment to me was "I never knew it could be like this".

For the first time in their life, all was not darkness. The light they experienced was not fleeting...nor was it simply an on-coming train...

No, everything was not all hearts and flowers for them after that, but the "fog" lifted so they could see more light and improved their outlook on life.

I can appreciate those with SSA, thinking it is part of who they are and not wanting that being removed from them, but the way I see it, it is because they don't know any different.

The trials they, and all of us, experince in life make us who we are, and each of us don't really know any different than the life we lived.

I have adopted children that suffer from ADHD, ODD, RAD/PTSD. I for one would welcome the pathways of their brain that resulted from those conditions to be set to right, as well as some of my own.

Now if I am way off on this then I am sure it will be explained to me.

[Nathair/|\]

I just need to say that I really appreciate people like SFarnsworth and Sky who live with challenges I can't even imagine and yet remain faithful to the Savior.

[RobertAC]

I have adopted children that suffer from ADHD, ODD, RAD/PTSD. I for one would welcome the pathways of their brain that resulted from those conditions to be set to right, as well as some of my own.

I think your post raises some interesting issues, Flyonthewall.

Certainly, people who are depressed or are suffering from ADHD are often negatively affected by it. But what about a scenario where the situation is a mixed bag of good, bad, and indifferent.

Certainly, autism is a problem, but if someone comes to accept themselves as autistic, should they change? What if the autistic person is a savant, and that talent that comes with being a savant would end once the person is cured from autism?

What about an intersexed child? Should parents and doctors make early decisions about changing the sex of a child?

I am not sure the "try it, and you'll like it" option would work with everyone who has a feature about themselves that others might consider a negative. I know that some gay/SSA people have tried change therapy to mixed results. From my understanding, sexual orientation cannot change in big ways, but for some who see their homosexuality as a negative, they can receive encouragement to follow a celibate life as they choose to do.

[Closet Doubter]

Your daugher is blessed to have such a father as you. I am sure you have both grown from living with this experience. My father only talks to me once or twice a year. I am never invited to any family gatherings. It is just the way it is. I think they feel if they do include me, some how they are accepting that I am gay. Having a gay son or daughter is not an easy thing for a member of the church to deal with. I understand that.

I hope your father will one day come around. My Uncle was gay and he came out of the closet about 48 years ago (I was about 8 at the time). He was pretty much disowned by my family. My parents wouldn't let us be around him but I didn't understand why until I was in my late teens. He died about 15 years ago (he had a monogomous relationship for about the last 25 years of his life with a man who I understand was a pretty good person even though I never met him). If anyone is going to be judged by the Lord for their actions it will be me and my straight family for the way we treated him. I wish he were still alive so I could at least apologize to him for my part of the actions that alienated him. I wish I could remember who said this, it was the wife of one of our past conservative political leaders. She was asked what she would do if she found out one of her sons was gay. She responded that "I would love him more because he would need it more". When one of our apostles will state something similar to this in conference, I will start listening to conference again.

[Closet Doubter]

.... Gay people did not choose to be gay and need Christ's love just like everyone else. Who are we to say they can not partake in all that he has? Who are we to call them sinners and outcasts? Who are we to tell them that we know they had a choice in the matter? This very un christlike attitude has caused suicides of children throughout our nation. It is very tragic and as Christ's church we should go about doing good and work towards tolerance. All this world needs is a little bit of love!

I used to beleive they had a choice to be gay (and there might be a few that do have the choice but if so it is probably a small minority). I believed what I read in Spencer Kimball's book "It's a Miracle if your Forgiven". About 15 years ago a friend of mine married a good woman who's first husband came out of the closet and they ended up divorced. Her first husband tried everything he could to be straight. He went on a mission and was an assistant to the president. He married in the temple. He served as Elder's Quorum president and was in the Bishopric when he came out of the closet. They had 3 beautiful children. After my friend had been married to the ex-wife for about 3 years, I asked him what it was like to know his wife's ex was gay. He stated "In the bedroom, I can do no wrong". In the 10 years she and her ex had been married he had an extremely difficult time performing heterosexually. His wife didn't know for sure there was a problem because she had never been with a man who was heterosexual and she was taught to not talk about things of an intimate nature. After this conversation with my friend, I knew at least in the case of his wife's exhusband, he did NOT choose to be gay. He did everything he could to be straight but was not successful.

[california boy]

Can you tell me the last time pedophiles or any other sinner had mounted a major movement to redefine an institution called "Marriage" that has belonged to heterosexuals and especially religion since time began?

Further, you seem confused as most critics on the issue are. Mormons don't care if you want to "marry", simply create YOUR OWN Institution to do it, not by co-opting ours. We are campaigning to PROTECT our institution, not to take away your right to do whatever sin you want. Every other person issue etc. creates new terms for a thing, so why can't gays? How bout "Gayarriage"? Even more, we haven't campaigned to take away "rights", such as any couple has in other ways. If we really were trying to take away your rights as you claim, we would do that also.

Again, where is all this "persecution"?

One does not have to do with the other. The Church does tell you that if you look at porn you lose certain rights and privileges in the Church. It does tell you if you do any other sin you loose rights. Further, the scriptures in the Bible specifically talks about "Eunuchs", that some people simply have to be Eunuchs for whatever reason. Thus, God already knows about your plight. Or do you really think God would want you performing any other sin simply because it is strongly a part of you? What makes your sin special? A pedophile for example doesn't want to hurt children, they love children. They are simply "attracted" to them, just like you are attracted to men. There is no difference but simply the age and choice involved.

Again, one has nothing to do with the other. Murder has nothing to do with marriage.

In the eyes of the Church it most certainly IS simply your cross to bear, the same way they wouldn't allow you to commit any other sin without consequences. You do homosexual, you're out of the Church. You murder, you're out of the Church, etc. And then when it comes to protecting the Institution of Marriage itself, preventing a group from co-opting it, then the Church also has a legitimate self interest there as well.

So then you think it's okay to sin in other ways then? Because that is what you're saying you know?

And do you really think it's not "hell" also for the rest of us that have other sins possibly just as intimate as yours?

What gives us the right to tell the Church that they should allow us in so we can commit our sins freely without accountability or standards?

Do you really intellectually think that "homosexuality" is really the Order man is to follow? We are to conform ourselves to God's standards, not our own. If you really can't be happy marrying a women, then don't, then remain celibate. Because if you wish to follow God and be in his Church then you're going to have to do what we are commanded to do. It's as simple as that. Further, if you really follow Christ and His Gospel, he is able to heal and/or support you in your cross. You can be happy. It's all however up to you.... following man's ways or Gods.

Love is not horrible, however perversion is. My crosses whatever they may be are also perverted. And you do know you rationalize like a sexually promiscuous person or many other sins. After all, no one is hurt, it's between consenting adults, we care for each other, etc. etc. You have rationalized that wrong is not wrong, and right is actually wrong. You've programed your mind to think that way. That doesn't make right, nor acceptableness to God. We are to overcome the natural man, not give into him.

I can feel the love tonight. You seem to have no problem telling me I am just like a pedophile, mass murderer, eunuch and not entitled to ever marry because you own the right to marriage even when it is a civil marriage outside the Mormon church. Does that make you feel better when you compare gays to pedophiles and mass murders? You have done it repeatedly in this thread.

You also probably know that pedophiles have not had to fight for the right to marry because, well, they already have that right just like every single other person in this country except if you are gay. And evidently you are unaware that prop 8 did take away the right of gay couples to marry.

The truth is, you know very little about my life or my relationship with God. So judge me all you want. But like I said, my salvation does not rest on your limited and myopic view of who I am. I won't worry about your salvation too much and hope you put less energy into worrying about my salvation. We all have our own salvation to worry about don't we.

[Deborah]

You are right about that, those are more difficult challenges. I was saying being gay is the most difficult sin.

Why? Having been married and then becoming single again and having to start over with the Law of Chastity was the most difficult thing I have ever done. Chastity is difficult for anyone where attractions and passions are high but for some reason gays think it is more difficult for them than anyone else. Just as you think I don't know about being gay, those who are gay don't know about being hetero and not having the opportunity to have a companion. Can you imagine how difficult it is for a person who could participate in that part of life but because of circumstances is never able to because of desire to live a moral life.

[california boy]

I used to beleive they had a choice to be gay (and there might be a few that do have the choice but if so it is probably a small minority). I believed what I read in Spencer Kimball's book "It's a Miracle if your Forgiven". About 15 years ago a friend of mine married a good woman who's first husband came out of the closet and they ended up divorced. Her first husband tried everything he could to be straight. He went on a mission and was an assistant to the president. He married in the temple. He served as Elder's Quorum president and was in the Bishopric when he came out of the closet. They had 3 beautiful children. After my friend had been married to the ex-wife for about 3 years, I asked him what it was like to know his wife's ex was gay. He stated "In the bedroom, I can do no wrong". In the 10 years she and her ex had been married he had an extremely difficult time performing heterosexually. His wife didn't know for sure there was a problem because she had never been with a man who was heterosexual and she was taught to not talk about things of an intimate nature. After this conversation with my friend, I knew at least in the case of his wife's exhusband, he did NOT choose to be gay. He did everything he could to be straight but was not successful.

I hope your father will one day come around. My Uncle was gay and he came out of the closet about 48 years ago (I was about 8 at the time). He was pretty much disowned by my family. My parents wouldn't let us be around him but I didn't understand why until I was in my late teens. He died about 15 years ago (he had a monogomous relationship for about the last 25 years of his life with a man who I understand was a pretty good person even though I never met him). If anyone is going to be judged by the Lord for their actions it will be me and my straight family for the way we treated him. I wish he were still alive so I could at least apologize to him for my part of the actions that alienated him. I wish I could remember who said this, it was the wife of one of our past conservative political leaders. She was asked what she would do if she found out one of her sons was gay. She responded that "I would love him more because he would need it more". When one of our apostles will state something similar to this in conference, I will start listening to conference again.

Thank you for your encouraging words. I know how difficult it is for Mormons to understand what it is like to be gay. When I left the church, a member of the high counsel asked if he could have lunch with me. When we got together he told me that his brother was gay and had come out 25 years before. He confessed that his family didn't really handle the situation the best they could. He wanted to make amens. So the way I figure it, I probably have about 12 more years before my family decides that I might still be part of the family even if I am gay.

One of the big losses of my life is I feel I don't even know my nieces and nephews. They were young when I was still in the closet. Now they are all grown up. I never got to know them. I am sure that is how your uncle feels about not having a relationship with you. Oh well. Life goes on. It is not over yet.

[Deborah]

California Boy I am sorry for your family's treatment, but not everyone acts that way. I have a gay daughter as well and she loves her neices and nephews and they love her. They don't get to see her much because she is in another state but she's always welcome when she comes.

[Calm]

You are right! A kid who chose to be gay does not want to be gay.

Your answer appears to have nothing to do with my comment which was about homosexuality (behaviours are the only actual sinful part of homosexuality) being the only tendency to sin that has no choice component as you claimed. IMO, you are making a major category error which is not helpful to those attempting to not act on their temptations.

For example, anyone experiencing compulsive behaviours would see themselves as not having a choice.

Simply having the inclinations to love someone of the same sex is not a sin, it is the choice to act on those behaviours just as someone who has heterosexual tendencies and is unmarried is not sinning through those feelings, but would sin if acted upon through porn or fornication etc.

Edited October 30, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

California Boy I am sorry for your family's treatment, but not everyone acts that way. I have a gay daughter as well and she loves her neices and nephews and they love her. They don't get to see her much because she is in another state but she's always welcome when she comes.

With so many here with gay children I'm wondering what their thoughts are, if gays are born that way. I only have a niece and nephew that are gay and didn't have the contact one would have as a parent.

[TAO]

Tacenda, I do have one question. Why does it matter if they are born that way? Does it really even matter?

Edited October 30, 2012 by TAO