Church Making Further Movements Toward Respect For Gay Members

[Saints Alive]

Ah...therein seemingly lies the problem. You don't want to consider Heavenly Father's plan as expounded by the Scriptures (male and female in marriage) and understood by General Authorities, and apparently are perfectly happy in believing the message of the Gay Agenda. You prefer to believe some variant of the lie mentioned by Elder Hafen, do you? You prefer not to take any of the advice offered by him?

Should you change your mind later on, there is something else you might want to consider. The Spartans often had real challenges complying with the law of marriage to women after being so long involved with men in mandatory gay relationships with their fellow soldiers, with whom they were paired up from childhood. One of the methods they had to use was to shave down the women and dress them like men just to get the young men closer to getting used to the idea of having relations with a female.

Perhaps you might possibly like a more masculine-looking female? I mean no disrespect and I am being perfectly serious about this latter suggestion. Could that possibly help you in future, should you change your mind and decide actually to live Heavenly Father's plan for your life? Or, would you instead wish to remain separate and single throughout eternity in the next life and make yourself a eunuch (graphic image for celibacy) for the kingdom of heaven in this life?

your being a little harsh don't you think? And I think those are inappropriate questions to ask someone on an open forum

[Tacenda]

your being a little harsh don't you think? And I think those are inappropriate questions to ask someone on an open forum

I totally agree Saints Alive. MM really needs to back away from the nosiness. I know, it happenened to me in another thread and had something to do with a lost library book.

You will be removed for board nannying if you do this again.

[MormonMason]

your being a little harsh don't you think? And I think those are inappropriate questions to ask someone on an open forum

I am hardly being harsh. Were I truly being harsh, everyone would know it, I think. People who are over-sensitive, on the other hand, often think I am harsh when I am not. I do sometimes have a tendency to get to the heart of the matter, however, and do call it like I see it.

I do not think they are inappropriate questions but rather questions that are intended to induce deep, introspective thought. They are serious questions but I am not expecting an answer in the open--unless the poster wanted to answer them. But, they were questions that needed to be asked. Feel free to disagree.

[Saints Alive]

I'm sorry, suggesting that someone is not truly gay and just needs to find a manly looking woman is both harsh and inappropriate.

[MormonMason]

I totally agree Saints Alive. MM really needs to back away from the nosiness. I know, it happenened to me in another thread and had something to do with a lost library book.

Nosiness, now? Interesting. What happened in your case is that you worded your post in such a way that you seemed to be saying something that would have put your soul at risk for damnation. That concerned me so I expressed concern. You later clarified--if you were telling the truth--so I backed off. I asked you no real, penetrating questions, however, just as I did not in the case of the poster who stated a repeat of the lie of the Gay Agenda and that he is happy to identify with their position rather than have a desire to follow God's plan for human life.

That said, the poster to whom I addressed my questions is in a far better position than someone who would do something dishonest (not saying that you are, mind you, so don't take it that way). He at least could still be saved in the Celestial kingdom so long as he does not act on his impulses and then commit a sin next to murder in seriousness, and subsequently perish while in a state of sin. But, deliberately choosing celibacy also does leave one separate and single for all eternity, if the Lord determines that he had had his chance and failed to take it. The scriptures are very clear that there will be no gay marriages in the eternities, that marriage is between male and female only, and that active homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of God.

I also offered a practical suggestion that was akin to what worked for a society that had legally mandated homosexuality in their society. It could by no means hurt for the poster I addressed to think about this possibility. It is completely up to him to decide what he wants to do with the suggestions and thought-provoking questions.

And, finally, I fully understand where he is coming from. I myself experienced SSA. Thankfully, I never acted upon it and refused Satan's promptings at every turn. In time, the Lord delivered me from it and I was able to have a fulfilling relationship with a woman. I did not marry a masculine-looking female but did date some at one time in my life before moving away from that.

[MormonMason]

I'm sorry, suggesting that someone is not truly gay and just needs to find a manly looking woman is both harsh and inappropriate.

No one is born that way. We make ourselves that way by acting and allowing thoughts to manifest into action. Then, changes in brain morphology and genetics make it that much harder to resist. You can believe it was harsh and inappropriate all you want. It is your right to think so. I saw it as a genuinely helpful suggestion based upon my own experiences and what seemed to work in one society that had, by law, mandated homosexual relationships before marriage. Nothing more nor less was intended but I am sure you will not see it that way. I am not here to change your mind. It is likely impossible at this point in time, anyway.

[swfarnsworth]

Ah...therein seemingly lies the problem. You don't want to consider Heavenly Father's plan as expounded by the Scriptures (male and female in marriage) and understood by General Authorities, and apparently are perfectly happy in believing the message of the Gay Agenda. You prefer to believe some variant of the lie mentioned by Elder Hafen, do you? You prefer not to take any of the advice offered by him?

Should you change your mind later on, there is something else you might want to consider. The Spartans often had real challenges complying with the law of marriage to women after being so long involved with men in mandatory gay relationships with their fellow soldiers, with whom they were paired up from childhood. One of the methods they had to use was to shave down the women and dress them like men just to get the young men closer to getting used to the idea of having relations with a female.

Perhaps you might possibly like a more masculine-looking female? I mean no disrespect and I am being perfectly serious about this latter suggestion. Could that possibly help you in future, should you change your mind and decide actually to live Heavenly Father's plan for your life? Or, would you instead wish to remain separate and single throughout eternity in the next life and make yourself a eunuch (graphic image for celibacy) for the kingdom of heaven in this life?

It has been over 24 hours since I first read this, and I can say that, without a doubt, this is the most horrible thing anyone has ever said to me. You clearly do not understand me at all.

As I have said before, I do not want the Church to alter doctrine to make SSM possible. I don't believe in the message of any "gay agenda", including the messages put forth by heretical organizations such as Affirmation, for example. They, along with the entire LGBT community (or at least the in-your-face sector of it), actually kept me in the closet for several years because I didn't want to be associated with them. The teachings endorsed by the Church are at the core of my being (even if I am not the best at emulating them), and the fact that you doubted this while making incredibly harsh judgments about me makes this the absolute worst insult that has ever been thrown in my direction.

Please consider your latter suggestion from the woman's perspective. Regardless of the fact that I know it wouldn't work, think about how she would feel being married to a gay man trying to think of her in those ways. I assume you have not done this because you said that your suggestion was serious.

I am trying to live Heavenly Father's plan for my life, and I still find it hard to believe that you had the audacity to question this. Unfortunately, as my bishop and I have discussed, His (God's) plan for my life most likely includes celibacy. I'm glad that this was not the case for you, and I hope the same will ultimately be true for me.

As a side note, if your assessment of what kind of person I am were actually accurate, your first paragraph might have been a reasonable response.

I am hardly being harsh. Were I truly being harsh, everyone would know it, I think. People who are over-sensitive, on the other hand, often think I am harsh when I am not. I do sometimes have a tendency to get to the heart of the matter, however, and do call it like I see it.

I suppose I can relate to that. I've been accused of not sugar coating things by those who know me, but you have administered your sugarless medicine to the wrong patient, so to speak. Even so, explaining how you personally overcame SSA would have been much better received and would have had much greater potential to be helpful for me.

Nosiness, now? Interesting. What happened in your case is that you worded your post in such a way that you seemed to be saying something that would have put your soul at risk for damnation. That concerned me so I expressed concern. You later clarified--if you were telling the truth--so I backed off. I asked you no real, penetrating questions, however, just as I did not in the case of the poster who stated a repeat of the lie of the Gay Agenda and that he is happy to identify with their position rather than have a desire to follow God's plan for human life.

Perhaps I need to clarify, then. Being gay, that is, the state of simply having an attraction to someone of the same sex, makes me happy in the same way that a straight person might be happy/enjoy being attracted to someone of the opposite sex. What does not make me happy, however, is the fact that I have to remain celibate to be in good standing with God as I understand Him to be, and therefore cannot act on any of those feelings.

That said, the poster to whom I addressed my questions is in a far better position than someone who would do something dishonest (not saying that you are, mind you, so don't take it that way). He at least could still be saved in the Celestial kingdom so long as he does not act on his impulses and then commit a sin next to murder in seriousness, and subsequently perish while in a state of sin. But, deliberately choosing celibacy also does leave one separate and single for all eternity, if the Lord determines that he had had his chance and failed to take it. The scriptures are very clear that there will be no gay marriages in the eternities, that marriage is between male and female only, and that active homosexuals will not enter the kingdom of God.

I have studied, pondered, prayed, discussed with my bishop, etc. on this matter extensively, and it has become apparent that I need to be content with celibacy at the present time. I thought for several years that my SSA would eventually correct itself, and though that may happen for some, I don't see it happening for me anymore. It could, and I would try to welcome the change if it did, but I don't think it will.

I am well aware that there is no gay marriage in the eternities and do not await the never-to-come day that a revelation will change this. It has been explained to me before that I will become straight at the resurrection if I am a candidate for Celestial Glory. The idea is still strange and awkward to me; I would not feel comfortable being forcibly changed in such an intimate way at the present time (as Rivers pointed out in post #36), but I am at least open to the possibility if that's what needs to happen.

I also offered a practical suggestion that was akin to what worked for a society that had legally mandated homosexuality in their society. It could by no means hurt for the poster I addressed to think about this possibility. It is completely up to him to decide what he wants to do with the suggestions and thought-provoking questions.

And, finally, I fully understand where he is coming from. I myself experienced SSA. Thankfully, I never acted upon it and refused Satan's promptings at every turn. In time, the Lord delivered me from it and I was able to have a fulfilling relationship with a woman. I did not marry a masculine-looking female but did date some at one time in my life before moving away from that.

I appreciate that you took the time to make the suggestion, but I still think it's ridiculous to try and apply your reasoning to modern times in this part of the world, where the woman is allowed to say "no" and find a man who is actually sexually attracted to women.

Everyone's path is different. I hope mine ends like yours, but I do not anticipate that happening. More accurately, I anticipate it, but much later for me, post-resurrection.

Edited October 27, 2012 by swfarnsworth

[Saints Alive]

No one is born that way. We make ourselves that way by acting and allowing thoughts to manifest into action. Then, changes in brain morphology and genetics make it that much harder to resist. You can believe it was harsh and inappropriate all you want. It is your right to think so. I saw it as a genuinely helpful suggestion based upon my own experiences and what seemed to work in one society that had, by law, mandated homosexual relationships before marriage. Nothing more nor less was intended but I am sure you will not see it that way. I am not here to change your mind. It is likely impossible at this point in time, anyway.

Well I'm glad you have figured out what neuroscience, biology, and psychology have not been able to.

Move on. Mormon Mason is no longer in the thread.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am glad that the church has softened in its understanding of what it is like being gay. Whether I was born gay or caused by my mother using the wrong brand of lipstick when she was pregnant is really unimportant to me. Does a blind man care whether he was created blind by God or or became blind in the womb by___________(fill in the blank for the latest scientific thinking)? Should members of the church treat the blind person any differently because of how he became blind? Would the blind person feel less blind if he knew that God created him that way?

We are all born the same...complicated. I attended the funeral today of a close friend who was married to another close friend for 25 years and had 5 children when he came out of the closet. The funeral was filled to standing room only for our friend, his family, including his ex- wife united in their love for him. I don't recognize the "biggoted" Mormons I am always hearing about. That is media hype.

[swfarnsworth]

We are all born the same...complicated. I attended the funeral today of a close friend who was married to another close friend for 25 years and had 5 children when he came out of the closet.

This is why I'm glad I didn't procrastinate. That sounds like a living nightmare.

[swfarnsworth]

Which part do you disagree? And you can word it however you want. I've developed a thick skin while on this board.

The difference is that there's an established doctrinal basis for the prohibition of gay marriage, whereas polygamy was explained to be a temporary thing in Jacob and no reason has been given for the priesthood ban at all. You could even declare that the ban was uninspired to begin with and not be disciplined, from my observations.

Hence, I don't want the Church to alter doctrine for my sake. Unlike the official declarations, this would really be the mountain bowing to the wind.

Edit: 100th post. Yippee.

Edited October 28, 2012 by swfarnsworth

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This is why I'm glad I didn't procrastinate. That sounds like a living nightmare.

It was of the most wonderful funerals I have ever attended...hard, yes. But 5 wonderful adult children, and a lifetime of service to the Church, mission. Bishopric, High Counsel. Scout Master, and one of the funniest friend I have ever had.

[Bikeemikey]

The difference is that there's an established doctrinal basis for the prohibition of gay marriage, whereas polygamy was explained to be a temporary thing in Jacob and no reason has been given for the priesthood ban at all. You could even declare that the ban was uninspired to begin with and not be disciplined, from my observations.

Hence, I don't want the Church to alter doctrine for my sake. Unlike the official declarations, this would really be the mountain bowing to the wind.

Edit: 100th post. Yippee.

Us Mormons have what I refer to as a procreative theology. Procreation is a central and fundamental component of our divine nature. That which undermines our divine potential is sin... therefore, homosexuality (which is non-procreative) is sin. Conversely, polygamy seems to have been considered a more divine life in part of the enhanced procreative capacity (we still have those who claim polygamy is necessary for celestial inheritance).

If we have not maximized our divine nature we can not get to the celestial kingdom.

There are a few things happening to challenge this.

One of the major challenges is science. Japanese scientists have recently taken skin cells from mice and created eggs and sperm, fertilized them and produced off spring. Only a decade or two before we can do that for humans. As such the necessity for sex as a necessary part (of celestial) procreation will be false.

Any thing we can do god can do better. If we can make babies without sex so can god.

This will be a major challenge to the current theological status quo.

[swfarnsworth]

It was of the most wonderful funerals I have ever attended...hard, yes. But 5 wonderful adult children, and a lifetime of service to the Church, mission. Bishopric, High Counsel. Scout Master, and one of the funniest friend I have ever had.

I was talking about him coming out to his wife and children being the living nightmare, not the funeral.

One of the major challenges is science. Japanese scientists have recently taken skin cells from mice and created eggs and sperm, fertilized them and produced off spring. Only a decade or two before we can do that for humans. As such the necessity for sex as a necessary part (of celestial) procreation will be false.

Any thing we can do god can do better. If we can make babies without sex so can god.

This will be a major challenge to the current theological status quo.

I've thought about this before. Do you think that if a goddess created a bunch of spirit children asexually, that all of them will turn out to be female because she doesn't have a y-chromosome to donate? I'll write that down and share it with the high priests tomorrow during third hour and see what they have to say. They would love that.

[Bikeemikey]

I've thought about this before. Do you think that if a goddess created a bunch of spirit children asexually, that all of them will turn out to be female because she doesn't have a y-chromosome to donate? I'll write that down and share it with the high priests tomorrow during third hour and see what they have to say. They would love that.

Here is a link to a general overview...

http://online.wsj.co...0428448760.html

One of the major leaps forward is that fetal stem cells are not required. They were able to do this with skin cells.

This part of the article goes to your earlier question:

Primordial germ cells aren't of a particular sex, but they can become eggs or sperm depending on which somatic cells surround them. Somatic cells are non-germ cells that go on to form much of the body, including blood, bone and organs.

cell sex does not matter in determining the sex of the off-spring. The how the cell is hosted does.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Bikeemikey

[Calm]

Us Mormons have what I refer to as a procreative theology. Procreation is a central and fundamental component of our divine nature. That which undermines our divine potential is sin... therefore, homosexuality (which is non-procreative) is sin. Conversely, polygamy seems to have been considered a more divine life in part of the enhanced procreative capacity (we still have those who claim polygamy is necessary for celestial inheritance).

If we have not maximized our divine nature we can not get to the celestial kingdom.

There are a few things happening to challenge this.

One of the major challenges is science. Japanese scientists have recently taken skin cells from mice and created eggs and sperm, fertilized them and produced off spring. Only a decade or two before we can do that for humans. As such the necessity for sex as a necessary part (of celestial) procreation will be false.

Any thing we can do god can do better. If we can make babies without sex so can god.

This will be a major challenge to the current theological status quo.

Simply because science and therefore God can do something a certain way, doesn't mean it is the best way to do it.

I am not suggesting that sexual procreation is the way spirits are made.

[california boy]

Simply because science and therefore God can do something a certain way, doesn't mean it is the best way to do it.

I am not suggesting that sexual procreation is the way spirits are made.

You bring up a very interesting point that I have never thought about. If spirit children are not created through procreation, then why would it be necessary to be married for eternity to a woman? The likelihood of spirit children being created through procreation seems highly doubtful on the surface anyway. Billions of children would give even me a headache. Heavenly mother seems to play a very minor role in the governing of worlds and mankind anyway. It is not all that difficult to see a world governed by two gods share the management of those under their stewardship together. The relationship between God the Father And Christ are not all that much different. Surely there is room in some corner of the universe that is not being used by straight gods. Just a thought. Thanks. It almost gives me some kind of hope that we don't know all that God has planned for us. Right now the celestial kingdom seems more like hell to a gay man.

[california boy]

We are all born the same...complicated. I attended the funeral today of a close friend who was married to another close friend for 25 years and had 5 children when he came out of the closet. The funeral was filled to standing room only for our friend, his family, including his ex- wife united in their love for him. I don't recognize the "biggoted" Mormons I am always hearing about. That is media hype.

That is very wonderful to hear Pa Pa. I certainly think it is in keeping with how Christ would want all of His followers to live their lives. I certainly wish my experience with members in my ward and stake would have been more positive. Like your friend, also served faithfully in the church for 40 years as young mens president, missionary, in a bishopric, on the high counsel, teaching seminary etc. When I came out, only a handful of members ever even talked to me again. I don't blame it all on them. I certainly did not reach out to them either. I guess one of the most difficult things I struggled with throughout my life is that if people knew I was gay, would they still love me. When I came out, I didn't want to make the first step in bridging my relationship with them. I felt that if they loved me they would reach out towards me. It didn't really happen. But I also see the flip side of the coin. Perhaps they thought that I didn't want anything to do with them as well. So my own actions were no worse that theirs. I let my insecurities determine my behavior.

[Tacenda]

You bring up a very interesting point that I have never thought about. If spirit children are not created through procreation, then why would it be necessary to be married for eternity to a woman? The likelihood of spirit children being created through procreation seems highly doubtful on the surface anyway. Billions of children would give even me a headache. Heavenly mother seems to play a very minor role in the governing of worlds and mankind anyway. It is not all that difficult to see a world governed by two gods share the management of those under their stewardship together. The relationship between God the Father And Christ are not all that much different. Surely there is room in some corner of the universe that is not being used by straight gods. Just a thought. Thanks. It almost gives me some kind of hope that we don't know all that God has planned for us. Right now the celestial kingdom seems more like hell to a gay man.

And to a heterosexual female if I believe some of the commands of early church leaders.

[Calm]

The Church is getting more and more family-centric, with things about the family being the ultimate source of joy in life, them being together forever, the importance of parenting, etc.

One needs to remember there are more ways of being part of and participating in an eternal family than solely being a parent.

Is Christ's relationship to us as our Brother any less profound than the relationship we have with our Father?

Edited October 28, 2012 by calmoriah

[Saints Alive]

Heavenly mother seems to play a very minor role in the governing of worlds and mankind anyway. It is not all that difficult to see a world governed by

just because we don't fully know or understand what HM's role is doesn't mean it is unimportant or minor. Edited October 28, 2012 by Saints Alive

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I was talking about him coming out to his wife and children being the living nightmare, not the funeral.

You are correct for husband and wife, horrifying...our love for them both broke our hearts, but yesterday all stood as one again, and I believe will do so in the resurrection. This is my hope.

[Calm]

People change and grow throughout life as it is....

When I was a child there were a number of things I never thought I would tolerate, let alone enjoy....like eating tomatoes.

Many of my favourite things to do now I had no awareness of when I was younger. I see no need to lock myself now into what I will or will not desire in the future, either in this life or any to come. All I need to concern myself with is finding the best way to go about in the here and now and for the rest, place my trust and soul in the Lord's care.

-----

A sense of identity is essential, but if it prevents us from even considering new ways of looking at things, perhaps it is time to attempt to look at identity in new ways....as in am I this way because this is who I am or because this is who I think I am?

Edited October 28, 2012 by calmoriah

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That is very wonderful to hear Pa Pa. I certainly think it is in keeping with how Christ would want all of His followers to live their lives. I certainly wish my experience with members in my ward and stake would have been more positive. Like your friend, also served faithfully in the church for 40 years as young mens president, missionary, in a bishopric, on the high counsel, teaching seminary etc. When I came out, only a handful of members ever even talked to me again. I don't blame it all on them. I certainly did not reach out to them either. I guess one of the most difficult things I struggled with throughout my life is that if people knew I was gay, would they still love me. When I came out, I didn't want to make the first step in bridging my relationship with them. I felt that if they loved me they would reach out towards me. It didn't really happen. But I also see the flip side of the coin. Perhaps they thought that I didn't want anything to do with them as well. So my own actions were no worse that theirs. I let my insecurities determine my behavior.

As Paul said, in this life we see through a glass darkly...one day we will all see things as they really are. I have a child going trough this...I would go to hell in place it she had to pass through it. As a father I love for the day when a boo boo could be cured by a kiss and monsters dispelled with ease. I just know I love her...I don't have all the answers, in fact the older I get I realize their are just too many questions. I am sorry for the loss of some of your friends.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

As Paul said, in this life we see through a glass darkly...one day we will all see things as they really are. I have a child going trough this...I would go to hell in place it she had to pass through it. As a father I long for the day when a boo boo could be cured by a kiss and monsters dispelled with ease. I just know I love her...I don't have all the answers, in fact the older I get I realize their are just too many questions. I am sorry for the loss of some of your friends.