Church Making Further Movements Toward Respect For Gay Members

[williamsmith]

I know, how could it POSSIBLY begin to have? Science would so refute the stances it would shame the church into submission entirely. Better to remain neutral and be born black in life (woops, sorry, a former LDS doctrine now rescinded just came poppin outta me - GRIN!) than actually take a stance on the ONE SURE way to actually learn something of reality instead of all the theological hoopla faith promoting fluff we get as "doctrine" from God (which ends up being changed every decade or so as God progresses in His knowledge of things and shares the "truth" with us via revelation.......

"Neutrality" was a belief by some in the Church, not ever actually doctrine of the Church.

And also neither was "being born black" also ever a doctrine, it was only a belief by some.

The actual doctrine of the Church on those issues was and still is that our pre-mortal probation has some effect on our mortal probation, and "being black" had nothing to do with the Priesthood ban other than as a sign of the curse. Only those of African Lineage were banned from the Priesthood, no matter the color. Blacks of various races and shades including as black as African blacks were in fact given the Priesthood. Lineage was the point no different than the Tribes of Judaism were the point, not skin color nor what one did in the pre-mortal life when it came to that skin color.

[williamsmith]

I am glad that the church has softened in its understanding of what it is like being gay. Whether I was born gay or caused by my mother using the wrong brand of lipstick when she was pregnant is really unimportant to me. Does a blind man care whether he was created blind by God or or became blind in the womb by___________(fill in the blank for the latest scientific thinking)? Should members of the church treat the blind person any differently because of how he became blind? Would the blind person feel less blind if he knew that God created him that way?

Have you ever watched or read the story of Romeo and Juliet and thought that Romeo had no business wanting to marry Juliet? After all his parents and society told him he should not fall in love with her and certainly should not marry her. Did he make the wrong choice? And what if his family and society wanted Romeo to marry a male friend. Should he marry the male friend that he had no love or slightest interest in rather than Juliet? What if the choices give to Romeo was to marry his male friend or be celibate his entire life and then when he died he could marry his male friend for all eternity, but he would want to by then.

I am not trying to justify being gay. Nor am I asking the church to change its position. I am only trying to help those that are not gay understand what the church lays out for a gay member. I hope that helps maybe one person on this forum further understand the situation gay members find themselves in. Maybe that will help one person understand what swfarnsworth is going through and ever other gay member that wants to stay active in the church deals with.

At one point in my life I would have gladly taken a magic pill to make me straight. But would I now? Nope. It is too much about who I am deep inside. That must be hard for a straight person to understand.

First, I would like to know where all this "persecution" of gay members of the Church is? I've only seen charity for the most part from the Church toward whatever sins and weaknesses people in the Church have. Obviously there are the immature who still need to grow, but that is not the Church. Again, where is all this "persecution"?

Second, what makes you think a "strait" person doesn't understand deeply held sin that is so apart of them that it can FEEL and SEEM like they were born that way and can't get rid of it? Do you really think YOUR sin and weakness is any different from the pain a good man or woman who might be a pedophile, who might be a serial killer, who might be addicted to sex, masturbation, looking at porn, and on and on..... deeply personal things that are so interwoven in our physical and mental natures, ALL developing because of thought and environment, with only maybe some small propensity of birth?

Your homosexuality drives are no different whatsoever from ANY other sin, especially ones of a sexual nature or similar. And just because we have those sins doesn't mean we should ACT on them. Or do you really believe pedophiles should have sex with children, or we should look at porn, or masturbate or kill people because it gives us some rush, or on and on? You homosexuals think you are normal and special, well, you are not. You suffer the SAME as many of us. And you don't have a right to embrace and magnify your sin any more than we do for ours. Many have our own crosses to bear. That doesn't mean it's okay and good to do them, nor especially have a right to tell GOD and His Church what Eternal Law and Right is!

Edited October 28, 2012 by williamsmith

[rodheadlee]

For those who haven't read my comments on this before, I'm a gay member of the Church with a temple recommend, in good standing, etc.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that the General Authorities realize how difficult they are making it for me to stay content with celibacy. The Church is getting more and more family-centric, with things about the family being the ultimate source of joy in life, them being together forever, the importance of parenting, etc. I can't identify with much of that, and the only consolation I got during the previous general conference were things to the effect of "we feel sorry for those of you with SSA and don't hate you.". I don't feel hated. I don't feel inherently sinful. If the Church is trying to make me not feel bad about being gay, then it is doing a good job. However, it's doing a terrible job helping me feel content. Can't the ultimate source of joy in life be something that everyone willing to obey the commandments has equal access to?

Take this quote I found on the Newsroom website: "If you are faithful, on resurrection morning—and maybe even before then—you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex. Some of you may wonder if that doctrine is too good to be true." That doesn't sound too good to be true at all. The idea of being changed in such a personal way like that almost sounds frightening, which is why I have no intention of even considering conversion therapy. At the same time, I don't want there to be a change in doctrine to make SSM possible, as the doctrinal shift this would necessitate would be so comprehensive that I would lose faith in and abandon the Church, and probably belief in God along with it. It wouldn't even be possible to construct a logical argument stating that the change wasn't a godless PR move, as can be done with the two official declarations.

In other words, I will probably never be completely happy.

I can sympathize with your view of Church activities and talks being family centric. My wife and I are childless and can never have children. We are rapidly approaching our 60's so I don't see a change in that status. We have helped raise some unofficially adopted teens in the past but we will never know the joy of child bearing and parenting our own children.

We are also smokers and have no Temple Recommend nor have we been sealed so we are 2nd class Mormons but I now understand why it is so hard for us to quit after reading Mormon Mason's post about genetic change and brain morphology. I was once told in a priesthood meeting that if I died a smoker I would be addicted for all eternity, but after reading your newsroom quote I have a new hope that we shall rise on resurrection morning healed of all our infimities. Thanks for your post.

Edited October 28, 2012 by rodheadlee

[TAO]

Swans, while a personal change will be hard to have, you must realize, we must all make it; change ourselves to follow Christ. We are all, going to have to change, I must say... and if we don't we will fail.

I was born with Asperger's, not understanding well the sociality that existed between humans. And I spent many years trying to learn it. It changed me. But... I still feel myself. Is changing oneself, such a bad thing? No, it is not; it's just one step in the path. It's scary, yeah. But, at the same time, we all have to change at one time or another. And change can lead to good things. I am glad now, that I spent the time to learn how to socialize with normal people.

In any case, the way I read the newsroom statement is that on that ressurection morning, you will be released from that temptation. It's like not being reminded of your weakness; not constantly feeling that inclination. Do you think you could change under those circumstances?

Then again, that is just my thoughts on the issue, and I have no knowledge on it. But I have a feeling that people will still have to overcome it; it's just that the temptation won't be there to stop them. Again, no knowledge of it though.

I wish you luck though, on the trials you have. And I also reccomend the song Come Come Ye Saints. It's provided me solace in the trials I have had to overcome. I guess it's just helped to drive me onwards, which, well, I really needed. =)

Come, come, ye saints, no toil nor labor fear;

But with joy wend your way.

Though hard to you this journey may appear,

Grace shall be as your day.

Tis better far for us to strive

Our useless cares from us to drive;

Do this, and joy your hearts will swell -

All is well! All is well!

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard?

'Tis not so; all is right.

Why should we think to earn a great reward

If we now shun the fight?

Gird up your loins; fresh courage take.

Our God will never us forsake;

And soon we'll have this tale to tell-

All is well! All is well!

We'll find the place which God for us prepared,

Far away, in the West,

Where none shall come to hurt or make afraid;

There the saints, will be blessed.

We'll make the air, with music ring,

Shout praises to our God and King;

Above the rest these words we'll tell -

All is well! All is well!

And should we die before our journey's through,

Happy day! All is well!

We then are free from toil and sorrow, too;

With the just we shall dwell!

But if our lives are spared again

To see the Saints their rest obtain,

Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell-

All is well! All is well!

Best of Wishes to you, in all the difficult things,

-TAO

Edited October 28, 2012 by TAO

[california boy]

First, I would like to know where all this "persecution" of gay members of the Church is? I've only seen charity for the most part from the Church toward whatever sins and weaknesses people in the Church have. Obviously there are the immature who still need to grow, but that is not the Church. Again, where is all this "persecution"?

Second, what makes you think a "strait" person doesn't understand deeply held sin that is so apart of them that it can FEEL and SEEM like they were born that way and can't get rid of it? Do you really think YOUR sin and weakness is any different from the pain a good man or woman who might be a pedophile, who might be a serial killer, who might be addicted to sex, masturbation, looking at porn, and on and on..... deeply personal things that are so interwoven in our physical and mental natures, ALL developing because of thought and environment, with only maybe some small propensity of birth?

Your homosexuality drives are no different whatsoever from ANY other sin, especially ones of a sexual nature or similar. And just because we have those sins doesn't mean we should ACT on them. Or do you really believe pedophiles should have sex with children, or we should look at porn, or masturbate or kill people because it gives us some rush, or on and on? You homosexuals think you are normal and special, well, you are not. You suffer the SAME as many of us. And you don't have a right to embrace and magnify your sin any more than we do for ours. Many have our own crosses to bear. That doesn't mean it's okay and good to do them, nor especially have a right to tell GOD and His Church what Eternal Law and Right is!

Since you seem to be making the case that the church looks upon every sexual sin the same way, can you recall the last time the church mounted a political campaign to not allow pedophiles to marry or any of the other sin you mentioned? Does the church tell people that look at porn they can't marry and have to be celibate all their lives? Do you realize that you can kill your first wife, be convicted and sent to prison and still have the constitutional right to marry in this country yet the church has done nothing to take away the murder's right to marry? If this was just an issue of everyone has a cross to bear, then you would have a point. But it isn't at least in the eyes of the church.

Look, like I have said countless times; I am not trying to change the doctrine of the church. So don't accuse me of that. Members can follow any belief that they want. If a member thinks that being gay is the worst sin next to murder they are free to believe that. Like I said in the post you quoted, I am grateful that the church is softening its position towards gays. I hope it continues. I hope that the church will welcome those gay members that feel there is a place for them in the church to live happy lives in the gospel. But there is nothing in the Celestial Kingdom for me. Like I said earlier what is promised me as a gay members is more like hell than heaven. If God feels the need for me to have a wife for all eternity, I would rather not participate.

I am not preying on innocent children. Nor am I taking the life of an innocent person. I am guilty of loving a man and sharing my life with him. I am willing to accept what ever God has planned for me for that love. That love may be the most horrible thing imaginable to you but it is not to me. And quite frankly I don't think it is the most horrible sin in the sight of God. Fortunately my salvation is not in your hands.

[Calm]

I was once told in a priesthood meeting that if I died a smoker I would be addicted for all eternity, but after reading your newsroom quote I have a new hope that we shall rise on resurrection morning healed of all our infimities. Thanks for your post.

It is absurd to think one will be addicted for eternity unless that is what one desires, it makes no more sense then claiming I am going to be wanting to take the medications I require to function now for eternity because I will have to take them for the rest of my life barring some currently nforeseen medical advance.

I look forward to celebrating with you our newfound freedom from physical limitations when that wonderful morning comes.

[california boy]

As Paul said, in this life we see through a glass darkly...one day we will all see things as they really are. I have a child going trough this...I would go to hell in place it she had to pass through it. As a father I love for the day when a boo boo could be cured by a kiss and monsters dispelled with ease. I just know I love her...I don't have all the answers, in fact the older I get I realize their are just too many questions. I am sorry for the loss of some of your friends.

Your daugher is blessed to have such a father as you. I am sure you have both grown from living with this experience. My father only talks to me once or twice a year. I am never invited to any family gatherings. It is just the way it is. I think they feel if they do include me, some how they are accepting that I am gay. Having a gay son or daughter is not an easy thing for a member of the church to deal with. I understand that.

[Tacenda]

First, I would like to know where all this "persecution" of gay members of the Church is? I've only seen charity for the most part from the Church toward whatever sins and weaknesses people in the Church have. Obviously there are the immature who still need to grow, but that is not the Church. Again, where is all this "persecution"?

Second, what makes you think a "strait" person doesn't understand deeply held sin that is so apart of them that it can FEEL and SEEM like they were born that way and can't get rid of it? Do you really think YOUR sin and weakness is any different from the pain a good man or woman who might be a pedophile, who might be a serial killer, who might be addicted to sex, masturbation, looking at porn, and on and on..... deeply personal things that are so interwoven in our physical and mental natures, ALL developing because of thought and environment, with only maybe some small propensity of birth?

Your homosexuality drives are no different whatsoever from ANY other sin, especially ones of a sexual nature or similar. And just because we have those sins doesn't mean we should ACT on them. Or do you really believe pedophiles should have sex with children, or we should look at porn, or masturbate or kill people because it gives us some rush, or on and on? You homosexuals think you are normal and special, well, you are not. You suffer the SAME as many of us. And you don't have a right to embrace and magnify your sin any more than we do for ours. Many have our own crosses to bear. That doesn't mean it's okay and good to do them, nor especially have a right to tell GOD and His Church what Eternal Law and Right is!

I didn't read clear to the end so someone may have responded the same way but that's harsh that they have to treat their sexuality as a sin just like someone who's sin is porn or some other sin. Edited October 28, 2012 by Tacenda

[rodheadlee]

It is absurd to think one will be addicted for eternity unless that is what one desires, it makes no more sense then claiming I am going to be wanting to take the medications I require to function now for eternity because I will have to take them for the rest of my life barring some currently nforeseen medical advance.

I look forward to celebrating with you our newfound freedom from physical limitations when that wonderful morning comes.

Thanks, I look forward to meeeting you and your familly.

[Calm]

Thanks, I look forward to meeeting you and your familly.

I think because we focus so much on the parental side of family in the church that we sometimes forget that we also will be able to fully participate in being brothers and sisters to each other; in fact, there will be much more opportunity to relate to others in that way (due to God's children being infinite in number) than as parents and children. And while the marriage relationship is understood to yield a unique relationship between individuals due to the nature of its bond, we need to realise the same will be true for our relationships with our eternal spiritual siblings as we are each unique and thus any combination will yield uniqueness as well. We need to elevate, IMO, the value of this eternal relationship, if only to promote a more loving and compassionate attitude among our vast extended family in mortality.

For those of us who don't look forward to a marriage relationship for some reason (and I know several heterosexuals in that position) or who don't envision themselves as parents, there will be more than enough wonderful relationships on the 'sibling level' in the CK---including Christ----to fill our lives to beyond overflowing in joy and companionship. To say there is nothing to look forward to in the CK based on how we currently perceive marriage is to miss a most significant portion of what we will be able to enjoy there.

Edited October 28, 2012 by calmoriah

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Your daugher is blessed to have such a father as you. I am sure you have both grown from living with this experience. My father only talks to me once or twice a year. I am never invited to any family gatherings. It is just the way it is. I think they feel if they do include me, some how they are accepting that I am gay. Having a gay son or daughter is not an easy thing for a member of the church to deal with. I understand that.

Having a son or daughter struggle with any of the difficulties of this world is hard. My Daughter and I speak almost daily, and she eats (along with all but my son serving a mission for two more months) with us every Sunday for Family dinners, takes Vacations with us sometimes...she has a job so she cannot always get away. We are all going to Flordia next month, she cannot get off work but the other kids and all the grand kids will be with us...Be patient and loving, they will adjust.

[swfarnsworth]

First, I would like to know where all this "persecution" of gay members of the Church is? I've only seen charity for the most part from the Church toward whatever sins and weaknesses people in the Church have. Obviously there are the immature who still need to grow, but that is not the Church. Again, where is all this "persecution"?

Your very post is the problem. There is no persecution, but there is, as this thread is continuing to reveal, misunderstanding.

Second, what makes you think a "strait" person doesn't understand deeply held sin that is so apart of them that it can FEEL and SEEM like they were born that way and can't get rid of it? Do you really think YOUR sin and weakness is any different from the pain a good man or woman who might be a pedophile, who might be a serial killer, who might be addicted to sex, masturbation, looking at porn, and on and on..... deeply personal things that are so interwoven in our physical and mental natures, ALL developing because of thought and environment, with only maybe some small propensity of birth?

Your homosexuality drives are no different whatsoever from ANY other sin, especially ones of a sexual nature or similar. And just because we have those sins doesn't mean we should ACT on them. Or do you really believe pedophiles should have sex with children, or we should look at porn, or masturbate or kill people because it gives us some rush, or on and on? You homosexuals think you are normal and special, well, you are not. You suffer the SAME as many of us. And you don't have a right to embrace and magnify your sin any more than we do for ours. Many have our own crosses to bear. That doesn't mean it's okay and good to do them, nor especially have a right to tell GOD and His Church what Eternal Law and Right is!

Yes, there is a difference. Pedophiles and serial killers are hurting people in serious ways. Those with various sexual addictions are addicted to things that are preventing them from being productive and chancing their outlook on people negatively.

I, however, do not want to hurt anyone, though I suppose you could say that I want to do something that would hurt myself: I want to some day be in a stable, loving relationship with a person of the same sex, though because of my faith in this religion, I cannot have that. I understand why it has to be that way, so I am not asking anyone to change the doctrine to make that possible. I even condemn organizations that push for such a thing.

All the other potential sinners you mentioned have to deny themselves of something that is evil: pedophilia, murder, etc. I, however, have to deny myself of some things that are evil (from an eternal perspective), and some things that are certainly good: romance, a family, raising children, etc. What do you think it is like to have to go through life knowing that I have to actively deny myself those things? You want to equate that to having to sacrifice the desire to forcibly take numerous human lives? Are you serious? This is the problem that gay members of the Church face, not blatant homophobia.

Edited October 29, 2012 by swfarnsworth

[Sky]

I know all too well the plight that gay members of the Church face.. I experience it myself everyday. Too many of them leave - usually through inactivity or worst case scenario - name-removal or excommunication. Some of us are fortunate enough to be able to marry in the temple and maintain a heterosexual relationship and have children. But more of us become disillusioned and believe that we don't belong. I think this is a tragedy. This is The Church of Jesus Christ, and His Atonement and grace is sufficient enough to save everybody from their sins if they will repent. There has to be a place at the table for them, even if they don't fit the mold of the "ideal Mormon." Fortunately, I think the Church is making great strides in this area. But, the Church can't "cure" our attractions and also won't give in to social pressure to accept gay relationships. So there will probably always be a struggle. Gay people can make it work as faithful members of Church, but it requires a great deal of devotion and faith and self-sacrifice. We should help to lighten their burden, not make it heavier.

[TAO]

Swansforth, I have a feeling that not all pedophiles would feel they are doing an evil thing. Not that I've seen such; but that would be my guess.

[tyler90az]

Bottom line is most gay people do not have a choice in the matter. There have been gay people forever, it is just they could not come out. A victory in modern time is that people can be who they are. If not for that very thing we would not be on this discussion board. The church we love would not exist. This is a deciding moment for our church. Will it be like Blacks and Priesthood? One of the last churches to accept truth. The other option is embrace truth first, be a leader in the movement towards truth. Do we truly embrace truth or not? This tolerance is a very good thing and I am happy about what the leaders are doing, who are in a very tough situation. Sometimes you just have to do what is right and let the consequences follow.

God does not make mistakes, gay people are Gods children also!

Edited October 29, 2012 by tyler90az

[Tacenda]

Bottom line is most gay people do not have a choice in the matter. There have been gay people forever, it is just they could not come out. A victory in modern time is that people can be who they are. If not for that very thing we would not be on this discussion board. The church we love would not exist. This is a deciding moment for our church. Will it be like Blacks and Priesthood? One of the last churches to accept truth. The other option is embrace truth first, be a leader in the movement towards truth. Do we truly embrace truth or not? This tolerance is a very good thing and I am happy about what the leaders are doing, who are in a very tough situation. Sometimes you just have to do what is right and let the consequences follow.

God does not make mistakes, gay people are Gods children also!

Very true, woo hoo!

[Tacenda]

Bottom line is most gay people do not have a choice in the matter. There have been gay people forever, it is just they could not come out. A victory in modern time is that people can be who they are. If not for that very thing we would not be on this discussion board. The church we love would not exist. This is a deciding moment for our church. Will it be like Blacks and Priesthood? One of the last churches to accept truth. The other option is embrace truth first, be a leader in the movement towards truth. Do we truly embrace truth or not? This tolerance is a very good thing and I am happy about what the leaders are doing, who are in a very tough situation. Sometimes you just have to do what is right and let the consequences follow.

God does not make mistakes, gay people are Gods children also!

Very true, woo hoo!

[williamsmith]

Since you seem to be making the case that the church looks upon every sexual sin the same way, can you recall the last time the church mounted a political campaign to not allow pedophiles to marry or any of the other sin you mentioned?

Can you tell me the last time pedophiles or any other sinner had mounted a major movement to redefine an institution called "Marriage" that has belonged to heterosexuals and especially religion since time began?

Further, you seem confused as most critics on the issue are. Mormons don't care if you want to "marry", simply create YOUR OWN Institution to do it, not by co-opting ours. We are campaigning to PROTECT our institution, not to take away your right to do whatever sin you want. Every other person issue etc. creates new terms for a thing, so why can't gays? How bout "Gayarriage"? Even more, we haven't campaigned to take away "rights", such as any couple has in other ways. If we really were trying to take away your rights as you claim, we would do that also.

Again, where is all this "persecution"?

Does the church tell people that look at porn they can't marry and have to be celibate all their lives?

One does not have to do with the other. The Church does tell you that if you look at porn you lose certain rights and privileges in the Church. It does tell you if you do any other sin you loose rights. Further, the scriptures in the Bible specifically talks about "Eunuchs", that some people simply have to be Eunuchs for whatever reason. Thus, God already knows about your plight. Or do you really think God would want you performing any other sin simply because it is strongly a part of you? What makes your sin special? A pedophile for example doesn't want to hurt children, they love children. They are simply "attracted" to them, just like you are attracted to men. There is no difference but simply the age and choice involved.

Do you realize that you can kill your first wife, be convicted and sent to prison and still have the constitutional right to marry in this country yet the church has done nothing to take away the murder's right to marry?

Again, one has nothing to do with the other. Murder has nothing to do with marriage.

If this was just an issue of everyone has a cross to bear, then you would have a point. But it isn't at least in the eyes of the church.

In the eyes of the Church it most certainly IS simply your cross to bear, the same way they wouldn't allow you to commit any other sin without consequences. You do homosexual, you're out of the Church. You murder, you're out of the Church, etc. And then when it comes to protecting the Institution of Marriage itself, preventing a group from co-opting it, then the Church also has a legitimate self interest there as well.

Look, like I have said countless times; I am not trying to change the doctrine of the church. So don't accuse me of that. Members can follow any belief that they want. If a member thinks that being gay is the worst sin next to murder they are free to believe that. Like I said in the post you quoted, I am grateful that the church is softening its position towards gays. I hope it continues. I hope that the church will welcome those gay members that feel there is a place for them in the church to live happy lives in the gospel. But there is nothing in the Celestial Kingdom for me. Like I said earlier what is promised me as a gay members is more like hell than heaven. If God feels the need for me to have a wife for all eternity, I would rather not participate.

So then you think it's okay to sin in other ways then? Because that is what you're saying you know?

And do you really think it's not "hell" also for the rest of us that have other sins possibly just as intimate as yours?

What gives us the right to tell the Church that they should allow us in so we can commit our sins freely without accountability or standards?

Do you really intellectually think that "homosexuality" is really the Order man is to follow? We are to conform ourselves to God's standards, not our own. If you really can't be happy marrying a women, then don't, then remain celibate. Because if you wish to follow God and be in his Church then you're going to have to do what we are commanded to do. It's as simple as that. Further, if you really follow Christ and His Gospel, he is able to heal and/or support you in your cross. You can be happy. It's all however up to you.... following man's ways or Gods.

I am not preying on innocent children. Nor am I taking the life of an innocent person. I am guilty of loving a man and sharing my life with him. I am willing to accept what ever God has planned for me for that love. That love may be the most horrible thing imaginable to you but it is not to me. And quite frankly I don't think it is the most horrible sin in the sight of God. Fortunately my salvation is not in your hands.

Love is not horrible, however perversion is. My crosses whatever they may be are also perverted. And you do know you rationalize like a sexually promiscuous person or many other sins. After all, no one is hurt, it's between consenting adults, we care for each other, etc. etc. You have rationalized that wrong is not wrong, and right is actually wrong. You've programed your mind to think that way. That doesn't make right, nor acceptableness to God. We are to overcome the natural man, not give into him.

[williamsmith]

Bottom line is most gay people do not have a choice in the matter.

And that is satan's great lie, that we do not have a choice with whatever crosses we each must burden and endure.

I will say it again, Pedophiles think they were "born that way", pedophiles don't want to hurt anyone, and they love children.

Fact is, is we all have a choice, no matter what our cross is or out intimate, strong and personal it is. Right and wrong is still right and wrong.

Homosexuality is wrong and always has been.

There have been gay people forever, it is just they could not come out.

There has been sin forever, that doesn't mean it should be done.

A victory in modern time is that people can be who they are.

People have always been allowed to be who they are, but some things should simply remain private.

It is not a "victory" in our modern times that homosexuality is considered normal and okay. In fact it is a tragedy of the times. I've seen the societal effects of these and other sins "tolerated" all too much.

If not for that very thing we would not be on this discussion board. The church we love would not exist. This is a deciding moment for our church. Will it be like Blacks and Priesthood? One of the last churches to accept truth.

There was not a "blacks and the Priesthood", there was simply those of African Lineage and the Priesthood, no different than any other time when the Priesthood was restricted. Blacks of various races were given the Priesthood worldwide.

The other option is embrace truth first, be a leader in the movement towards truth. Do we truly embrace truth or not? This tolerance is a very good thing and I am happy about what the leaders are doing, who are in a very tough situation. Sometimes you just have to do what is right and let the consequences follow.

An ironic statement, why doesn't it apply to you/gays? The commands against homosexuality are clear, direct, and timeless. Why are you/they above the law?

God does not make mistakes, gay people are Gods children also!

God did not make a mistake, mortal human fallibility and human agency and environment made the mistake.

Thus guess what, in those mistakes and weaknesses of nature or our natural man, we are obligated to choose the right always, and let the consequences follow. Homosexuality is not choosing the right, no matter how you rationalize it.

[Calm]

"They are simply "attracted" to them, just like you are attracted to men.  There is no difference but simply the age and choice involved."

One other difference, the target of their attraction may be able to return it to,them as a consenting adult.

[swfarnsworth]

Swansforth, I have a feeling that not all pedophiles would feel they are doing an evil thing. Not that I've seen such; but that would be my guess.

Seriously? We are talking about consenting adults here.

[tyler90az]

And that is satan's great lie, that we do not have a choice with whatever crosses we each must burden and endure.

I will say it again, Pedophiles think they were "born that way", pedophiles don't want to hurt anyone, and they love children.

Fact is, is we all have a choice, no matter what our cross is or out intimate, strong and personal it is. Right and wrong is still right and wrong.

There is no sin harder to beat than homosexuality. Humans sexual drives are one of the most basic drives we have. It is similar to our drive for food and water. Why do you think about Catholic Priest raping boys(not trying to justify in the slightest)? The sexual drive is very powerful. Rarely will another cross ever compare to trying to beat animal drives.

Why would God do that? The answer is either God made a mistake or they were created that way.

The diference with pedophiles is that their prey can not consent. They are demons from God set out to harm the innocent in this world.

Homosexuality is wrong and always has been.

According to people acting on the knowledge they had. That includes Prophets acting on the knowledge they had. Also Jesus Christ's overarching commandment was love one another.

There has been sin forever, that doesn't mean it should be done.

It does not make sense how it was a sin if people were created gay. Believe that God has the power to create us anyway he want. I do not believe God would create somebody with an unbeatable 'sin.'

People have always been allowed to be who they are, but some things should simply remain private.

It is not a "victory" in our modern times that homosexuality is considered normal and okay. In fact it is a tragedy of the times. I've seen the societal effects of these and other sins "tolerated" all too much.

What are the effects? More public outcry against religion because they are hated by religion. If somebody hates me I think I probably would not be to fond of them. If religion could accept gay people for who they are they may just join. They may join an embrace the religious morality that we have. Think about the unity this country would have and the shear numbers our church would grow.

God did not make a mistake, mortal human fallibility and human agency and environment made the mistake.

Thus guess what, in those mistakes and weaknesses of nature or our natural man, we are obligated to choose the right always, and let the consequences follow. Homosexuality is not choosing the right, no matter how you rationalize it.

I have tried to rationalize on this matter for a long time. The simple fact is I can no longer. My integrity is more important then a little more spirituality. To put it in your terms, you have lost part of my soul to the devil. Gay people did not choose to be gay and need Christ's love just like everyone else. Who are we to say they can not partake in all that he has? Who are we to call them sinners and outcasts? Who are we to tell them that we know they had a choice in the matter? This very un christlike attitude has caused suicides of children throughout our nation. It is very tragic and as Christ's church we should go about doing good and work towards tolerance. All this world needs is a little bit of love!

[Saints Alive]

Swansforth, I have a feeling that not all pedophiles would feel they are doing an evil thing. Not that I've seen such; but that would be my guess.

that's NAMBLA argument anyway... However I don't think it's fair in this instance to compare homosexuality and pedophilia.

[Deborah]

God does not make mistakes, gay people are Gods children also!

I always wonder where this originated because it creates a false impression that anyone who is born with any affliction isn't a mistake but deliberately made that way. I'd rather think that God allows us to come to this mortal earth where the imperfections of mortality allow mistakes to be made, either genetically or otherwise. I do not think for a moment God deliberately made us with certain hadicaps or difficulties but he allowed to come experience these things so that we can overcome them as much as possible in this life to move forward and be perfected in the next.

[Deborah]

Sometimes you just have to do what is right and let the consequences follow.

Define "right." But yes whatever choice you make consequences will follow.