Saints Alive Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Read here: http://blogs.standard.net/the-political-surf/2012/10/22/lds-church-making-further-movements-toward-respect-for-gays-lesbians/I just skimmed through the article, however I found it interesting that it was just two years ago that Elder Packer said that God would not make someone born gay, and now the church is refuting that. Has anyone had one of these "meetings?"
mfbukowski Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Read here: http://blogs.standar...-gays-lesbians/I just skimmed through the article, however I found it interesting that it was just two years ago that Elder Packer said that God would not make someone born gay, and now the church is refuting that.Has anyone had one of these "meetings?"I haven't.I am not saying it didn't happen but the blogger clearly did not get the sources right.There is no such thing as a "Regional Representative" in the church any more. That kind of makes the whole thing smell a bit fishy to me.And I think no one in the comments section had ever heard of such meetings either Edited October 25, 2012 by mfbukowski
CV75 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Read here: http://blogs.standar...-gays-lesbians/I just skimmed through the article, however I found it interesting that it was just two years ago that Elder Packer said that God would not make someone born gay, and now the church is refuting that.Has anyone had one of these "meetings?"I do not believe God makes people gay, whether that means a propensity for homosexual desires and behaviors or actually wholeheartedly embracing such. I believe that whatever a person may be, is the result of a pre-existing, fore-ordained mutual understanding between him and God in the design of his “times …and the bounds of their habitation” including his personality, and the purpose for this is that he “should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him.” I do not see the Church’s enjoining Christlike tolerance of a specific personal trait in an environment we have created in our own mortal society as indicative of refuting that.We haven’t had a meeting like this in our ward.
mfbukowski Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Also note that what the press release actually says includes these statements:ELDER OAKS: No, we do not accept the fact that conditions that prevent people from attaining their eternal destiny were born into them without any ability to control. PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You’re saying the Church doesn’t necessarily have a position on ‘nurture or nature’ELDER OAKS: That’s where our doctrine comes into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender attraction. Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.ELDER WICKMAN: Whether it is nature or nurture really begs the important question, and a preoccupation with nature or nurture can, it seems to me, lead someone astray from the principles that Elder Oaks has been describing here. Why somebody has a same-gender attraction… who can say? But what matters is the fact that we know we can control how we behave, and it is behavior which is important. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/official-statement/same-gender-attraction(I could not get the link feature to work properly- cut and paste the above into your browser)So I don't see anything different here at all, if that is what the article is referring to.
RobertAC Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 This thread dovetails nicely with the thread about the American Atheist commentary. Since Prop 8, the LDS Church leadership has improved its relationship with the gay community in big leaps and bounds. It's noticed, but not by everyone. That will change with time. Overall, it appears that the church is making positive strides to build bridges with a variety of groups.
Saints Alive Posted October 25, 2012 Author Posted October 25, 2012 There is no such thing as a "Regional Representative" in the church any more. That kind of makes the whole thing smell a bit fishy to me.Thats true but I think a lot of people, especially those who still remember regional representatives, use that and area authority interchangeably.
Kerry A. Shirts Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 He can't be refuting that, when an Apostle speaks it's God's will. And even if it isn't, the advice and knowledge they speak is just as good as God's will. One truly wonders just exactly WHEN God is ever speaking anymore...... 1
Kerry A. Shirts Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I do not believe God makes people gay, whether that means a propensity for homosexual desires and behaviors or actually wholeheartedly embracing such. I believe that whatever a person may be, is the result of a pre-existing, fore-ordained mutual understanding between him and God in the design of his “times …and the bounds of their habitation” including his personality, and the purpose for this is that he “should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him.” I do not see the Church’s enjoining Christlike tolerance of a specific personal trait in an environment we have created in our own mortal society as indicative of refuting that.We haven’t had a meeting like this in our ward.God doesn't make anyone gay or straight. That is simple genetics. There ARE people born as men/women you know, BOTH sexes at once.
Kerry A. Shirts Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 He can't be refuting that, when an Apostle speaks it's God's will. And even if it isn't, the advice and knowledge they speak is just as good as God's will. One truly wonders just exactly WHEN God is ever speaking anymore...... I mean, sincerely, what hasn't Boyd K. Packer ever commented on that hasn't been changed or refuted within a few years by those with more insight? There is very little I suspect that he really understands when it comes to social issues of God's children. He is far too black and white thinking to have much understanding of our day. But MAN would he have made a FANTASTIC Old Testament prophet! 1
Saints Alive Posted October 25, 2012 Author Posted October 25, 2012 God doesn't make anyone gay or straight. That is simple genetics. There ARE people born as men/women you know, BOTH sexes at once. Actually, current research suggests that homosexuality is a product of both nature and environment. In that aspect it is similar to some learning disabilities.
Rivers Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) I found this talk from the recent FAIR conference to be quite interesting. It is by a gay member of the church. He says that the question of what causes same-sex attraction is irrelevent. It all comes down to what we truly desire in life.http://www.fairlds.o...mosexual-desireI'm glad to know that the church is making progress in being more respectful towards gays and lesbians.When I was on the swim team in high school, one of my teammates was gay. My mom had met and talked with his mom at one of the swim meets. My mom later suggested that I be friends with him. Being the biggoted person I was at the time, I responded that I didn't want to be friends with someone who was gay. My mom responded by pointing out that the savior was friends with everyone no matter who they were or what kind of lifestyle they lived. That response was a pivitol event that changed my perspective on this issue. There's always room for improvement within the church in becoming more christlke. Edited October 25, 2012 by Rivers 4
Saints Alive Posted October 25, 2012 Author Posted October 25, 2012 The only real stumbling block for the church now regarding homosexuality, is limiting relationships. Its a tough sell to tell someone that in order to live according to God's will they must either be celibate or marry someone who they feel no attraction toward.
MormonMason Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 You can alter your genes by what you do, however. This has been proven in the scientific community with identical twins. Identical twins have identical DNA at birth, but differences in what these twins do alters which genes are switched on or off. Act on an impulse and alter your DNA, making the action become more a part of who you are. Repeated actions do more than just alter DNA and switch genes on and off. They also alter brain morphology. Such can be seen in the brains of cab drivers and others. Cab drivers have larger sections of the brain involved in directionality and locative perception. When people were doing studies that showed the corpus callossum of gay men was morphologically different than those of straight men, it was hailed as a wonderful example of the "fact" that they were born that way.The truth, however, is that this did not hold up due to variations among them depending upon time and age. This, however, is consistent with alteration of brain morphology over time by repeated action. Born that way or made that way by acting on impulses? That is the question but there is no question in my mind that such is the case. That also explains why it is harder for someone who has been homosexual for a long time to alter behavior than for those who have brief foray into that world and then can stop and never go back. It explains why it is that younger persons have an easier time of altering the behavior than older persons. (This, by the way, is the underlying rationale behind the policy of setting upper limits to the age of a person who has had a homosexual encounter and still can go on a full-time mission).We alter ourselves at a fundamental level by what we allow ourselves to think and by what we do, and by what we think it is OK to do. This much is becoming more apparent as behavioral and anatomic sciences progress. It may be prompted by disorders in glutamate expression in the brain that may occur as certain times in life in some individuals (fruitfly studies using flies that are turned to homosexual acts by introduction of additional glutamates into their physiology may show something similar with humans that have many of the same genes and consume food products that contain large amounts of glutamates) but repeated thought and act may well make the changes more permanent in many individuals.I think that someday science may well come up with a cure for the potential initial cause. But that cause certainly does not necessarily seem to be related to birth or to concrete genetics at the time of gestation. Much of that still is an open question. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 God doesn't make anyone gay or straight. That is simple genetics. There ARE people born as men/women you know, BOTH sexes at once.I thought of you when I saw this- as quoted and referenced in my post 4 above:Those are scientific questions — whether nature or nurture — those are things the Church doesn’t have a position on.The church does not have positions on scientific questions.
MormonMason Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 God doesn't make anyone gay or straight. That is simple genetics. There ARE people born as men/women you know, BOTH sexes at once.These individuals often are merged fraternal twins. There is nothing that can be done about that kind of genetic anomaly. Genetic testing shows this to be the case when it is. Different parts of the body will have differing DNA, including sex chromosomes, when this happens.But, if the 'individual' is not merged twins, and have the same DNA across all parts of the body, including sex chromosomes, then there are genetic anomalies that will have a y-chromosome with three sex x-chromosomes. Genetically, while this person would look more female the person would be male. Presence of the y-chromosome in humans means the persons is male, no matter the genetic anomaly. An improperly formed/functioning y-chromosome can also result in a person looking in all respects like a woman, while being genetically a man.
CV75 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 God doesn't make anyone gay or straight. That is simple genetics. There ARE people born as men/women you know, BOTH sexes at once.My point was that whatever we are in the flesh at birth is the product of a mutual agreement between our Heavenly Father and our premortal self (spirit), just as whatever we ultimately become is the product of mutual agreement between our Heavenly Father and us. It isn't all exclusively Heavenly Father's doing. That goes for any genetic permutation that might be found in mortality, including the examples you offered. That doesn’t necessarily go for anything that might happen to us outside of our or Heavenly Father’s will.
CV75 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Actually, current research suggests that homosexuality is a product of both nature and environment. In that aspect it is similar to some learning disabilities.And as some of the quotes above show, the third factor (our arrangement with God) is all that really matters.
CV75 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 The only real stumbling block for the church now regarding homosexuality, is limiting relationships. Its a tough sell to tell someone that in order to live according to God's will they must either be celibate or marry someone who they feel no attraction toward.That depends on the individual involved being prepared to receive the message by the Holy Spirit. We cannot judge the Church any more than we can judge the thoughts and intents of one's heart. Being celebate or married is one's own conclusion about the standard for chasitity.
thesometimesaint Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Actually, current research suggests that homosexuality is a product of both nature and environment. In that aspect it is similar to some learning disabilities.That statement is not supported by the evidence. In studies of genetic twins there is no more incidence of homosexuality than in the general population. If I had to hazard a guess, and it is only at guess, it is something in, or in adaption to their environment. Though filtering out the cause(s) out so far has proved impossible. None of which has any bearing on actions of our/their own. Nor does it warrant any mistreatment of any gay person.
DavidB Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Read here: http://blogs.standard.net/the-political-surf/2012/10/22/lds-church-making-further-movements-toward-respect-for-gays-lesbians/I just skimmed through the article, however I found it interesting that it was just two years ago that Elder Packer said that God would not make someone born gay, and now the church is refuting that. Look at Elder Packers exact words: "Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so!"The key phrase for me is "and cannot overcome". It is undeniable that are, for lack of better words, "preset" - this is akin to weakness given unto man" so preset is within the gospel; contrast that with "can not over come" - this is not within the gospel, infact it is the antithesis of the gospel.As already stated the LDS Church does not have a position on the origin of homosexual desire - that is for science. However, the origin is not relevant. Why? Because not every person who claims homosexual attraction will say "inborn", I know many people who claim they were born that way, and I know many people who simply "experimented" with homosexuality for a extended period of time.All in all, the origin, does not help, as in the end what helps is Faith in Christ. 1
Saints Alive Posted October 25, 2012 Author Posted October 25, 2012 The cause may not matter in an eternal perspective, but it is important to help us understand how best to help those with SSA in this life.
DavidB Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) The cause may not matter in an eternal perspective, but it is important to help us understand how best to help those with SSA in this life.I am not sure how much I agree.It is my experience that those using "ssa" are religious and are trying to overcome the natural man of their desires; the same is for a hetero religious person who wishes not to sin. What do you see as the additional knowledge of origin providing, how would knowing affect the help you would provide. Edited October 25, 2012 by DavidB
Bob Crockett Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 You can alter your genes by what you do, however. Yeah, sure. Maybe by radiation.
Ahab Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Read here: http://blogs.standar...-gays-lesbians/I just skimmed through the article, however I found it interesting that it was just two years ago that Elder Packer said that God would not make someone born gay, and now the church is refuting that.Has anyone had one of these "meetings?"What quote from Elder Packer are you talking about? I'd like to see what he said before I find out what he meant.
MormonMason Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 (edited) Yeah, sure. Maybe by radiation.It is pretty much demonstrated that you can alter the functioning of genes in the body and receptors in the brain by behaviors and appetites. Smoking is another way. Drinking alcoholic beverages is another. Taking narcotics is yet another. There are now known to be many ways that we are altering our very genetic chemistry and brain morphology by what we think and do.Here is one article of many that makes the point about tobacco use and gene function. In this case they do not yet know if the genetic changes are irreversible.http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20100715/smoking-alters-gene-function Edited October 25, 2012 by MormonMason 2
Recommended Posts