Damien the Leper Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 So you admit that pink dragons are more ridiculous then the LDS Priesthood? Yet you deny the existence of both. Might wanna work on logical consistency there.You are failing to make your case by persisting to continue a ridiculous analogy. There is a difference between recognizing a sacred faith embodiment and a mythical creature. I don't recognize LDS priesthood because it doesn't make sense to me. I don't recognize the existence of pink dragons because it is a baseless fairy tale.
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Come on. Pink? It's unnecessary mockery that creates diversion like this.Okay, so your accusation is false and you want to save face by arguing that pink is demeaning to the Priesthood now? Here I was thinking I was crazy.
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 You are failing to make your case by persisting to continue a ridiculous analogy. There is a difference between recognizing a sacred faith embodiment and a mythical creature. I don't recognize LDS priesthood because it doesn't make sense to me. I don't recognize the existence of pink dragons because it is a baseless fairy tale.You have a strange hierarchy of non-real things.I'll indulge your weirdness. Change the analogy from pink dragons to thetans. Are you equally concerned about equal access to thetans?
Tacenda Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 (edited) I believe most of church growth can be attributed to births so your judgmental stereotype is untrue. So is your assumption that there is some "culture" in Utah that is weirder than anywhere else. You don't sound like you have lived in many places. This kind of stuff gets so tiresome not to mention off-topic. Since you don't live in Utah you don't understand what I'm talking about. I've lived in Utah all my life. And why would you say I said Utah is weird? Edited October 3, 2012 by Tacenda
Calm Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 I believe most of church growth can be attributed to births so your judgmental stereotype is untrue. So is your assumption that there is some "culture" in Utah that is weirder than anywhere else. You don't sound like you have lived in many places. This kind of stuff gets so tiresome not to mention off-topic.In communities that do tend to be more homogenous you simply get a new sub group of those who don't feel the need to conform. Depending on if their independence is encourage or not, you may get constructive rebellion or destructive (most often with the self a too easy subject.Our local teen subculture---who came from parents who urged and supported them to find a passion even with their busy lives turned into movie enthusiasts and made their own version of the LotRs complete with major costuming and horses.Up in Canada I knew another group where the ring leaders were pretty much their own bosses due to the high hours their parents worked while demanding perfection in grades and such...many of these turned to cutting themselves and turning against what their parents did.
swfarnsworth Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 It just seems more cultural here in Utah, expected out of everyone or you might stick out like a sore thumb. More people born in the covenant in Utah. Where in the mission field there are more converts and they might not have the peer pressure. In Utah almost everyone is Mormon depending on where you live. There are more diverse neighborhoods though.He has since been ordained, and I assume that he was pressured into it because he was reluctant to do so and has been resisting doing any deacon things (pass the sacrament, mutual, scouts, etc.) since that time. He may have really had a change of heart, though, so I don't know, but it was pressure as far as I can tell.Assuming that he really was pressured, I'm not sure if I approve of that, but he's not my son and I don't know what's best for him.
juliann Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Just to clarify, I was not saying I support the current practice. I would love for women to exercise priesthood alongside men. I was simply giving the best explanation for why things are as they are.And while I do believe we could allow women to prepare and pass the sacrament by a change of policy (ie, no priesthood is needed for these actions), I also think that the idea is so engrained in the church that these actions are part of priesthood duty that it would take the same effort to affect such a policy change as it would to give women the priesthood outright.I do think that these policy changes need to be the emphasis, however. The church is so rigidly "genderized" that I do have some concerns about unintended consequences. I actually think sacrament passing might be one of the easier ones. People don't think about everyone passing the sacrament tray down the row already. Just pointing that out is helpful.I do not find the current situation particularly disturbing on a personal level. I had a recent experience with a healing blessing that really emphasized to me how in control I was of the important things down to who, when, how and where. I wouldn't be doing that kind of thing if I didn't think it was coming from God so the conduit was kind of irrelevant. Whenever I have been in need of spiritual assistance, it isn't going through the church. It is a personal thing and very direct. The institutional stuff can be an annoyance but when push comes to shove it is completely, totally irrelevant.However, what does give me growing concern is the horrific responses to those who are really just asking to do more for the church. The condescending lecturing from men who pompously claim to speak for God or the women who proudly declare that they do not want the priesthood so no other woman should either. That this is being done so publicly in that Rameumpton kind of way is disturbing. 2
juliann Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Since you don't live in Utah you don't understand what I'm talking about. I've lived in Utah all my life. And why would you say I said Utah is weird?I lived in Utah for over 20 years. I love the place and you often disparage it. The difference is that I've lived in several other places and they all had a "culture". Try moving from the west coast to the east coast if you want to experience "culture". 1
Tacenda Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 I lived in Utah for over 20 years. I love the place and you often disparage it. The difference is that I've lived in several other places and they all had a "culture". Try moving from the west coast to the east coast if you want to experience "culture".I guess I might have come off sounding like that on occasion. But I can't complain really.
Tacenda Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 I do think that these policy changes need to be the emphasis, however. The church is so rigidly "genderized" that I do have some concerns about unintended consequences. I actually think sacrament passing might be one of the easier ones. People don't think about everyone passing the sacrament tray down the row already. Just pointing that out is helpful.I do not find the current situation particularly disturbing on a personal level. I had a recent experience with a healing blessing that really emphasized to me how in control I was of the important things down to who, when, how and where. I wouldn't be doing that kind of thing if I didn't think it was coming from God so the conduit was kind of irrelevant. Whenever I have been in need of spiritual assistance, it isn't going through the church. It is a personal thing and very direct. The institutional stuff can be an annoyance but when push comes to shove it is completely, totally irrelevant.However, what does give me growing concern is the horrific responses to those who are really just asking to do more for the church. The condescending lecturing from men who pompously claim to speak for God or the women who proudly declare that they do not want the priesthood so no other woman should either. That this is being done so publicly in that Rameumpton kind of way is disturbing. I'd actually love it if women would be able to annoint and bless others. I listened to a podcast on Feministmormonhousewives with Maxine Hanks where she said something quite startling, she said in the early church women performed many priestly duties not just blessings on other women. Very interesting that women's roles have been wittled down to what they are now. Especially the women that don't have families to worry about, they might like more spiritual power. I think women might have been more liberated in some aspects than they are now in the 21st century.
Damien the Leper Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 You have a strange hierarchy of non-real things.I'll indulge your weirdness. Change the analogy from pink dragons to thetans. Are you equally concerned about equal access to thetans?You just keep making this worse for yourself. Thetans? Really? You choose the Scientology equivalent of the soul/spirit? I'm curious to see how much deeper you are capable of digging your hole. But don't worry...I won't be the one to throw the dirt back in when you've gotten yourself deep enough to be buried.
Damien the Leper Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Can the Men start going to RS.I've gone on several occasions. The RS ladies can be intense in their theological reflections. It was wonderful to hear what they have to say.
Saints Alive Posted October 3, 2012 Author Posted October 3, 2012 You just keep making this worse for yourself. Thetans? Really? You choose the Scientology equivalent of the soul/spirit? I'm curious to see how much deeper you are capable of digging your hole. But don't worry...I won't be the one to throw the dirt back in when you've gotten yourself deep enough to be buried.I've noticed Nehor using thetans before, I don't think that word means what he thinks it means. According to the video from the Church of Scientology (which I rented from my local library, cant believe they had it.) A thetan is body and soul or "you" now back to your regularly scheduled program...
Saints Alive Posted October 3, 2012 Author Posted October 3, 2012 Can the Men start going to RS. I've always enjoyed the monthly RS/PH combined meetings.
Buckeye Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Can the Men start going to RS.President Eyring attended last Saturday's General Relief Society meeting.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 History is subject to how one interprets it. As others have said, history isn't completely reliable. For instance, some academics have interpreted Romans 16 to has Paul speaking of a female apostle, Junia. For further reading check here and here.Other academics will disagree.What is it exactly that you're asking me or looking for?I would say any academics with credentials will disagree.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Can the Men start going to RS.A friend on mine said he did Saturday.
Buckeye Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 I do think that these policy changes need to be the emphasis, however. The church is so rigidly "genderized" that I do have some concerns about unintended consequences. I actually think sacrament passing might be one of the easier ones. People don't think about everyone passing the sacrament tray down the row already. Just pointing that out is helpful.I do not find the current situation particularly disturbing on a personal level. I had a recent experience with a healing blessing that really emphasized to me how in control I was of the important things down to who, when, how and where. I wouldn't be doing that kind of thing if I didn't think it was coming from God so the conduit was kind of irrelevant. Whenever I have been in need of spiritual assistance, it isn't going through the church. It is a personal thing and very direct. The institutional stuff can be an annoyance but when push comes to shove it is completely, totally irrelevant.However, what does give me growing concern is the horrific responses to those who are really just asking to do more for the church. The condescending lecturing from men who pompously claim to speak for God or the women who proudly declare that they do not want the priesthood so no other woman should either. That this is being done so publicly in that Rameumpton kind of way is disturbing.I understand some of your angst. For me, when genderization happens I find solace by humbly stating my experiences and desires. Not so much a call for change, but a counterpoint. As President Monson says, "A kind word turneth away wrath".As one example, when the topic of female ordinantion comes up, it seems there are always one or more women who speak up and tell the group how happy they are in their situation and that they have no desire for the priesthood. In such instances, I simply testify as to how important the priesthood has been in my spiritual development, that there are some sisters who would like to serve in that capacity, and that I would love for all who desire that type of service to have the opportunity. At this point, just allowing for the possibility that women can righteously desire the priesthood is a big step for most members. 2
teddyaware Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 I understand some of your angst. For me, when genderization happens I find solace by humbly stating my experiences and desires. Not so much a call for change, but a counterpoint. As President Monson says, "A kind word turneth away wrath".As one example, when the topic of female ordinantion comes up, it seems there are always one or more women who speak up and tell the group how happy they are in their situation and that they have no desire for the priesthood. In such instances, I simply testify as to how important the priesthood has been in my spiritual development, that there are some sisters who would like to serve in that capacity, and that I would love for all who desire that type of service to have the opportunity.At this point, just allowing for the possibility that women can righteously desire the priesthood is a big step for most members.Doesn't it seem possible, given what goes on in the temple, that women already hold and exercise some important components of priesthood power and authority?
Buckeye Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Doesn't it seem possible, given what goes on in the temple, that women already hold and exercise some important components of priesthood power and authority?Personally, I think that is not only possible, but correct. I teach it in my family. I'm happy to discuss it in the appropriate setting with friends. But because of lack of direction from church leadership, I do not feel comfortable teaching it in a church setting. 1
wenglund Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Why are you interacting with me?You deserve the help.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
wenglund Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 No it's not. Priesthood is not a mere synonym for male. It has no mother and father. It has no gender. It is much more than that.You are arguing against points that were never made and are not in dispute--at least not with me. My comment was specific to whether the priesthood is "hoisted" on MEN, and logically I used some MALE-specific comparisons to suggest that the priesthood wasn't "hoisted" on MEN. I said nothing about women and priesthood or priestesshood or the eternal nature of priesthood (having no father or mother) or even whether the priesthood or priestesshood had gender or not, because those things were not relevant to the MALE-specific comment I was addressing. Please take more care in your reading.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
wenglund Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 You just keep making this worse for yourself. Thetans? Really? You choose the Scientology equivalent of the soul/spirit? I'm curious to see how much deeper you are capable of digging your hole. But don't worry...I won't be the one to throw the dirt back in when you've gotten yourself deep enough to be buried.Do you really think this kind of deflective projecting is an effective way to respond to Nehor's salient point?Thanks, -Wade Englund-
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 You just keep making this worse for yourself. Thetans? Really? You choose the Scientology equivalent of the soul/spirit? I'm curious to see how much deeper you are capable of digging your hole. But don't worry...I won't be the one to throw the dirt back in when you've gotten yourself deep enough to be buried.Thetans have another meaning if you go deeper down the rabbit hole. You are still unwilling to address your inconsistency. You insist that women have the right to something you believe is imaginary but only that one imaginary thing. You do not care about other imaginary things. It is almost as if arguing about this imaginary thing is something you do only because you imagine it allows you to take shots at the LDS faith. Hmmmmmm......Either you think the priesthood is real or you do not. You seem to want to dwell in a fuzzy area where you deny it but it still matters somehow and hide there by throwing out derails about how ridiculous some imaginary things are. Does the Priesthood fall in that category or not? If not, why not?
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