bcuzbcuz Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 The Church has always presented Noah's flood as having occurred between 2400 and 2300 BC, based on Adam's Fall having occurred around 4000 BC.This dating is a huge embarrassement for many members of the Church (since, according to science, it is totally implausible). Which is why so many responses in this thread didn't answer your question.These are the two most common timelines published by the Church for the Old Testament:http://institute.lds...1/map-p08-9.htmAccording to the Septuagint text, Methuselah lived 14 years after the flood. Are you saying that Church historians do not accept the Septuagint calendar?
bcuzbcuz Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 Thank you. I am well acquainted with scripture and references to the flood but all I want is a date.
bcuzbcuz Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 bcuzbcuz:See ZigguratsThank you. i had never seen these structures before. I have travelled to many Roman sites in Spain, Turkey and Greece and Egypt, and to many pre-Roman sites such as the pyramids and Knossos on Crete but now you have awakened a desire to visit Iraq and Iran.
bcuzbcuz Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 And just in case you were wondering what Church leaders and scholars have taught in Church publications about the flood (including its scope and reality), I've collected every quote from official Church publications that I could find here:The Church and a Global FloodThank you. Your quotes are extensive and thought provoking. Have you found any similar references that actually nail down a date for the flood?
bcuzbcuz Posted July 22, 2012 Author Posted July 22, 2012 No.Then I am open to you providing a date when the flood occurred.
thesometimesaint Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 bcuzbcuz:I'd like to see them to, but only until after the currant political situation calms down a bit.
rameumptom Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 The Bible actually has a dual account of the Flood mixed in on itself. One Flood has animals going 2x2, while the other story has the clean animals (written by the temple priests much later) going in groups of 7. The flood was either 40 days or 13 months long. There was a raven or a dove to determine whether the floods had abated.That Noah may have believed the flood covered literally all the earth, even when only a portion was, is possible. It may very well be that the flood that lifted his ark, carried it to the ocean, which would easily seem like a world covered in waters. A second flood would have carried the ark to its final destination.We need to be careful as LDS to not mistaken symbolism with historical facts. Do we believe that Eve was literally created from the rib of Adam? If so, then we need to tell Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R McConkie that they are wrong for not believing it to be a factual event. That the earth can be symbolically baptized by a partial flood does not negate the symbolism, just as Paul stating the children of Israel were baptized in the Red Sea, when they all passed over on dry ground and stayed dry!The fact is, Noah could not have had all the animals from around the world in his ark. How would kangaroos arrive from the island of Australia? How about bison and llamas from the Americas? Now multiply this by thousands of mammal species, and millions of insects and birds, etc., and suddenly you find there is no room in the ark. Even if he got them all to the ark and in it again, how does one get them back to their own continents?That archaeology shows a continuous pattern of civilization from 4000 BC through today in most areas of the world, shows that the whole world was not destroyed by a flood, but only the peoples that Noah was in contact with in a limited space of land.So it probably was with Adam. He was NOT the only person on the earth. Rather, he was the only person on earth with a covenant with God, the priesthood, and the blessings to be bestowed upon all the earth. He and Eve were alone in the Garden of Eden, but were not the only humans. They were the only humans with the covenant, 4
cwald Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 The Bible actually has a dual account of the Flood mixed in on itself. One Flood has animals going 2x2, while the other story has the clean animals (written by the temple priests much later) going in groups of 7. The flood was either 40 days or 13 months long. There was a raven or a dove to determine whether the floods had abated.That Noah may have believed the flood covered literally all the earth, even when only a portion was, is possible. It may very well be that the flood that lifted his ark, carried it to the ocean, which would easily seem like a world covered in waters. A second flood would have carried the ark to its final destination.We need to be careful as LDS to not mistaken symbolism with historical facts. Do we believe that Eve was literally created from the rib of Adam? If so, then we need to tell Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R McConkie that they are wrong for not believing it to be a factual event. That the earth can be symbolically baptized by a partial flood does not negate the symbolism, just as Paul stating the children of Israel were baptized in the Red Sea, when they all passed over on dry ground and stayed dry!The fact is, Noah could not have had all the animals from around the world in his ark. How would kangaroos arrive from the island of Australia? How about bison and llamas from the Americas? Now multiply this by thousands of mammal species, and millions of insects and birds, etc., and suddenly you find there is no room in the ark. Even if he got them all to the ark and in it again, how does one get them back to their own continents?That archaeology shows a continuous pattern of civilization from 4000 BC through today in most areas of the world, shows that the whole world was not destroyed by a flood, but only the peoples that Noah was in contact with in a limited space of land.So it probably was with Adam. He was NOT the only person on the earth. Rather, he was the only person on earth with a covenant with God, the priesthood, and the blessings to be bestowed upon all the earth. He and Eve were alone in the Garden of Eden, but were not the only humans. They were the only humans with the covenant,I don't think that is what the church teaches.
blackstrap Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Well, what do we do with the Flood Story from all the major and some minor civilizations world wide.Was it a case of " you tell two friends and they tell two friends" etc? Or was it because of a mutually shared experience? The fact that there is fossil evidence AT ALL indicates rapid burial by water born means. Then we have areas in the world where fossils of all kinds of animals are found jumbled together. Whether there was a worldwide flood can be debated but that there was flooding on massive scales worldwide in the past is (or should be) a given.
Ron Beron Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 Then I am open to you providing a date when the flood occurred.While I mostly disagree with the particulars of the event, e.g., Noah's name, ark, etc., I do believe it was an actual event or even events. There is plenty evidence to show that a large astronomical collision between the earth and a asteroid or meteorite could have given the results shown. Within the Mesopotamian region there have been a number of cataclysms involving not only geological forces which could result in a flood, but also astronomical ones. Below is an article from Telegraph in England showing one of these impacts...Meteor clue to end of Middle East civilisationsFriday, July 16, 20103:21 PMBy Robert Matthews, Science CorrespondentPublished: 12:01AM GMT 04 Nov 2001SCIENTISTS have found the first evidence that a devastating meteor impact in the Middle East might have triggered the mysterious collapse of civilisations more than 4,000 years ago.Studies of satellite images of southern Iraq have revealed a two-mile-wide circular depression which scientists say bears all the hallmarks of an impact crater. If confirmed, it would point to the Middle East being struck by a meteor with the violence equivalent to hundreds of nuclear bombs. Today's crater lies on what would have been shallow sea 4,000 years ago, and any impact would have caused devastating fires and flooding.The catastrophic effect of these could explain the mystery of why so many early cultures went into sudden decline around 2300 BC.They include the demise of the Akkad culture of central Iraq, with its mysterious semi-mythological emperor Sargon; the end of the fifth dynasty of Egypt's Old Kingdom, following the building of the Great Pyramids and the sudden disappearance of hundreds of early settlements in the Holy Land.Until now, archaeologists have put forward a host of separate explanations for these events, from local wars to environmental changes. Recently, some astronomers have suggested that meteor impacts could explain such historical mysteries.The crater's faint outline was found by Dr Sharad Master, a geologist at the University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, on satellite images of the Al 'Amarah region, about 10 miles north-west of the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates and home of the Marsh Arabs."It was a purely accidental discovery," Dr Master told The Telegraph last week. "I was reading a magazine article about the canal-building projects of Saddam Hussein, and there was a photograph showing lots of formations - one of which was very, very circular."Detailed analysis of other satellite images taken since the mid-1980s showed that for many years the crater contained a small lake.The draining of the region, as part of Saddam's campaign against the Marsh Arabs, has since caused the lake to recede, revealing a ring-like ridge inside the larger bowl-like depression - a classic feature of meteor impact craters.The crater also appears to be, in geological terms, very recent. Dr Master said: "The sediments in this region are very young, so whatever caused the crater-like structure, it must have happened within the past 6,000 years."Reporting his finding in the latest issue of the journal Meteoritics & Planetary Science, Dr Master suggests that a recent meteor impact is the most plausible explanation for the structure.A survey of the crater itself could reveal tell-tale melted rock. "If we could find fragments of impact glass, we could date them using radioactive dating techniques," he said.A date of around 2300 BC for the impact may also cast new light on the legend of Gilgamesh, dating from the same period. The legend talks of "the Seven Judges of Hell", who raised their torches, lighting the land with flame, and a storm that turned day into night, "smashed the land like a cup", and flooded the area.The discovery of the crater has sparked great interest among scientists.Dr Benny Peiser, who lectures on the effects of meteor impacts at John Moores University, Liverpool, said it was one of the most significant discoveries in recent years and would corroborate research he and others have done.He said that craters recently found in Argentina date from around the same period - suggesting that the Earth may have been hit by a shower of large meteors at about the same time.Pasted from <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1361474/Meteor-clue-to-end-of-Middle-East-civilisations.html>
Helen47 Posted July 22, 2012 Posted July 22, 2012 The Bible actually has a dual account of the Flood mixed in on itself. One Flood has animals going 2x2, while the other story has the clean animals (written by the temple priests much later) going in groups of 7. The flood was either 40 days or 13 months long. There was a raven or a dove to determine whether the floods had abated.That Noah may have believed the flood covered literally all the earth, even when only a portion was, is possible. It may very well be that the flood that lifted his ark, carried it to the ocean, which would easily seem like a world covered in waters. A second flood would have carried the ark to its final destination.We need to be careful as LDS to not mistaken symbolism with historical facts. Do we believe that Eve was literally created from the rib of Adam? If so, then we need to tell Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R McConkie that they are wrong for not believing it to be a factual event. That the earth can be symbolically baptized by a partial flood does not negate the symbolism, just as Paul stating the children of Israel were baptized in the Red Sea, when they all passed over on dry ground and stayed dry!The fact is, Noah could not have had all the animals from around the world in his ark. How would kangaroos arrive from the island of Australia? How about bison and llamas from the Americas? Now multiply this by thousands of mammal species, and millions of insects and birds, etc., and suddenly you find there is no room in the ark. Even if he got them all to the ark and in it again, how does one get them back to their own continents?That archaeology shows a continuous pattern of civilization from 4000 BC through today in most areas of the world, shows that the whole world was not destroyed by a flood, but only the peoples that Noah was in contact with in a limited space of land.So it probably was with Adam. He was NOT the only person on the earth. Rather, he was the only person on earth with a covenant with God, the priesthood, and the blessings to be bestowed upon all the earth. He and Eve were alone in the Garden of Eden, but were not the only humans. They were the only humans with the covenant,You have articulated exactly what I have been arguing with my spouse about. What did Noah feed for example the two lions on? When the animals were released, what did they the eat, the two deers? " lunch"? How did the koala bear make it to Australia? They need feed on a lot of gum leaves peculiar to Australia.You argument solves the problem of who Cain married. It also negates the need for a descendent to marry a son of Noah in order to perpetuate the curse.
thesometimesaint Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for a world wide flood during the last quarter of a million years. Thus precluding any such event for any proposed time frame for Noah. It is also a simple fact of the matter that the LDS are not nor have they ever been biblical literalistic. Symbolism and metaphor work quite well and still leave plenty of room for Noah being a prophet of God, building a boat and rescuing what he could in a massive albeit regional flood. 1
Ron Beron Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for a world wide flood during the last quarter of a million years. Thus precluding any such event for any proposed time frame for Noah. It is also a simple fact of the matter that the LDS are not nor have they ever been biblical literalistic. Symbolism and metaphor work quite well and still leave plenty of room for Noah being a prophet of God, building a boat and rescuing what he could in a massive albeit regional flood.Since most civilizations establish themselves along major waterways, e.g., rivers, lakes, oceans, and seas, then it would make sense that a large regional flood brought about by a natural catastrophe would account for the legends and subsequent surface destruction such as found in Crete and other locales. I all in for the reality of a massive flood, but I also think that there is a conflation of popular heroes with the event itself.
phaedrus ut Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 I think the most recent contribution from the church on the subject and since it was published in the Ensign should be considered officially correlated material. The Flood and the Tower of Babel By Donald W. Parry In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.I haven't seen a Ensign Article that says the opposite of this.Phaedrus//cwald quoted from this article earlier in the thread. 2
cinepro Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I think the most recent contribution from the church on the subject and since it was published in the Ensign should be considered officially correlated material. The Flood and the Tower of Babel By Donald W. ParryI haven't seen a Ensign Article that says the opposite of this.Phaedrus//cwald quoted from this article earlier in the thread.The odd thing is the the author seems to be a rather competent Old Testament scholar. If there were good scholarly reasons not to believe in the literal global flood (based on the Hebrew text etc.), he should know about it! Edited July 23, 2012 by cinepro
BCSpace Posted July 23, 2012 Posted July 23, 2012 A simple question, just to nail down a detail. When did Noah's flood occur? I'm not looking for an exact date. I'll accept anything close, even a decade or a century, just to figure out a timeline. PLease don't come with multiple options if they are more than a century apart, unless you are talking about multiple events.Since there is a great deal of evidence against a global Flood and since I think the standard date of the Fall (4004 B.C.) is likely to be innaccurate and since the OT Hebrew allows for a local interpretation, I postulate a local event, perhaps the sudden filling of the Black Sea. That is at around 5600 B.C. IIRC a similar event around 2200 or 2400 B.C.Additionally, perhaps the ancients, finding shells and fish fossils far inland or on mountains, postulated a global flood not knowing of continental drift, uplift, and how layers get laid down.
bcuzbcuz Posted July 24, 2012 Author Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Well, what do we do with the Flood Story from all the major and some minor civilizations world wide.Was it a case of " you tell two friends and they tell two friends" etc? Or was it because of a mutually shared experience? The fact that there is fossil evidence AT ALL indicates rapid burial by water born means. Then we have areas in the world where fossils of all kinds of animals are found jumbled together. Whether there was a worldwide flood can be debated but that there was flooding on massive scales worldwide in the past is (or should be) a given.Flood deposits of bones (possibly fossilized) and therefore all jumbled together occur only occasionally. The majority of fossilized bones are not helter skelter deposits but rather occur in well documented layers where similar deposits are found in similarly deep layers. A quick look at the fossil finds of the archaeopteryx from the shale stones of southern German found from 1861 up to present date are in sandstone deposits of such a fine grain that a flood deposit can be very simply ruled out. A cursory study of how shale is formed will also further your search. Edited July 24, 2012 by bcuzbcuz
bcuzbcuz Posted July 24, 2012 Author Posted July 24, 2012 You have articulated exactly what I have been arguing with my spouse about. What did Noah feed for example the two lions on? When the animals were released, what did they the eat, the two deers? " lunch"? How did the koala bear make it to Australia? They need feed on a lot of gum leaves peculiar to Australia.You argument solves the problem of who Cain married. It also negates the need for a descendent to marry a son of Noah in order to perpetuate the curse.Darwin postulated in his "Origin of the Species" that the lack of large mammals on islands more than 500 miles from mainland locations was because there was no means for them to travel there. Continental drift and species variations gives ample indicators to why marsupials occur mostly in Australia.
thesometimesaint Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 bcuzbcuz:What do you get when you combine a Snickers candy bar, Campbells' chicken and rice soup, and an electric eel?A Kangaroo, because it is a marsupial.
Ron Beron Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Flood deposits of bones (possibly fossilized) and therefore all jumbled together occur only occasionally. The majority of fossilized bones are not helter skelter deposits but rather occur in well documented layers where similar deposits are found in similarly deep layers. A quick look at the fossil finds of the archaeopteryx from the shale stones of southern German found from 1861 up to present date are in sandstone deposits of such a fine grain that a flood deposit can be very simply ruled out. A cursory study of how shale is formed will also further your search.Yeah, you can write it, but can you pronounce it?
Freedom Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 I think the most recent contribution from the church on the subject and since it was published in the Ensign should be considered officially correlated material. The Flood and the Tower of Babel By Donald W. ParryI haven't seen a Ensign Article that says the opposite of this.Phaedrus//cwald quoted from this article earlier in the thread.Quote mining is different than producing official contributions from the Church. I like Parry, but he is definitely bound by his perception of what is doctrine. He is of the McConkie and Millet school of thought where the opinions of past presidents are to be taken as doctrine, and the scriptures are to be taken literally. Of course, they both pick and choose what they want to take literally. There are many church scholars that disagree with his view on Isaiah and a host of other topics, and there are articles in the ensign that disagree with his assessment of the flood. Just as there are differing views on evolution among church leaders, there are differing views on Noah. The church has made an official statement on evolution (that they have no comment) but the church has not made an official statement concerning the flood. For now, we have various opinions and a reluctance to reconcile the events recorded in the scriptures with science. We don't want to admit it, but there is this ingrained need for our scriptures to be inerrant, and pesky matters such as science disrupt this deep seeded superstition.
Closet Doubter Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 I do not believe a flood ever covered the entire earth. I accept the possibility of a limited catastrophic flood that the person’s which experienced it believed wiped out the entire population of the earth. I don’t believe the statements by Joseph Fielding Smith that the flood was the baptism of the earth and covered even the highest peak of the highest mountain. I accept the statement from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism and the reasoning stated by earlier posters summarized below. From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism - THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation. The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep or deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127]. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for a world wide flood during the last quarter of a million years. Thus precluding any such event for any proposed time frame for Noah. It is also a simple fact of the matter that the LDS are not nor have they ever been biblical literalistic. Symbolism and metaphor work quite well and still leave plenty of room for Noah being a prophet of God, building a boat and rescuing what he could in a massive albeit regional flood. Noah could not have had all the animals from around the world in his ark. How would kangaroos arrive from the island of Australia? How about bison and llamas from the Americas? Now multiply this by thousands of mammal species, and millions of insects and birds, etc., and suddenly you find there is no room in the ark. Even if he got them all to the ark and in it again, how does one get them back to their own continents? That archaeology shows a continuous pattern of civilization from 4000 BC through today in most areas of the world, shows that the whole world was not destroyed by a flood, but only the peoples that Noah was in contact with in a limited space of land. Since most civilizations establish themselves along major waterways, e.g., rivers, lakes, oceans, and seas, then it would make sense that a large regional flood brought about by a natural catastrophe would account for the legends and subsequent surface destruction such as found in Crete and other locales. A problem I have is that people whom I am supposed to sustain as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have made many statements to the contrary of what is stated above. Some of the statements that have already appeared in this thread are summarized below. There are many more The Prophet, President Gordon B. Hinckley, “If Ye Are Prepared, Ye Shall Not Fear”. October 2005 General Conference - There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only “eight souls were saved”. A Prophet, Elder Mark Petersen, “Follow the Prophets”. October 1981 General Conference - . . . today much like Noah’s day when the population of the earth was wiped out in the flood and but eight righteous souls were spared? Some doubt that there was a flood, but by modern revelation we know that it did take place. A Prophet, Jeffry R. Holland, “A Promised Land”. Ensign, June 1976 - Two generations later the Lord was so pained by that generation “without affection” that he opened the windows of heaven and cleansed the entire earth with water. 70, Elder Hartman Rector, Jr., “Turning the Hearts”. April 1981 General Conference - The Lord further indicated that all flesh was corrupt in those days, and so he brought forth the flood and destroyed all flesh except Noah and his family. Therefore, we are all descendants of righteous Noah. 70, Elder William Bennett, “Covenants and Blessings”. October 1975 General Conference - Another one was Noah, who was chosen to be the second father of the human race here on earth, after the flood.. Official church publication, The Flood and the Tower of Babel, by Donald W. Parry, assistant professor of Hebrew at BYU, Ensign, Jan 1998 - . . . . We Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who . . . . built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God's prophets. When I was a missionary, one of the things I taught as a reason we need living prophets to guide us today is so that when questions arise related to doctrine, we don’t have to guess and speculate, the Prophet can inquire of the Lord and give us accurate information and direction. This does not appear to be happening today unless we accept that a flood occurred that covered the entire world and wiped out all animal life (other than possibly fish) except for those that Noah collected onto the arc.
Calm Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Yeah, you can write it, but can you pronounce it?http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/archaeopteryx?s=t Hit the speaker at the end of the pronunciation guide.
Recommended Posts