Noah'S Flood

[bcuzbcuz]

A simple question, just to nail down a detail. When did Noah's flood occur? I'm not looking for an exact date. I'll accept anything close, even a decade or a century, just to figure out a timeline. PLease don't come with multiple options if they are more than a century apart, unless you are talking about multiple events.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Whenever it happened, it was in all likelihood not a physical flood:

There are many events, described with appropriate terrestrial imagery, that do not, however, happen on earth. In this book there is mention of floods. In tradition, not one but three floods are registered, one being the biblical flood, equivalents of which are mentioned in Sumerian and Babylonian annals. The efforts of pious archaeologists to connect the biblical narrative with geophysical events are highly conjectural. There have been floods in Mesopotamia causing grievous loss of life. There still are in he river plains of China and elsewhere, but none of the total nature that the Bible describes.

There are tales, too, of cataclysmic deluges throughout the great continental masses, in Asia and America, told by peoples who have never seen the sea, or lakes, or great rivers. The floods the Greeks described, like the flood of Deucalion, are as "mythical" as the narrative of Genesis. Greece is not submersible, unless by tsunamis. Deucalion and his wife landed on Mount Parnassus, high above Delphi, the "Navel of the Earth," and were the only survivors of this flood, the second, sent by Zeus in order to destroy the men of one world-age. Classical authors disagreed on the specification of which world-age. Ovid voted for the Iron Age. Plato's Solon keeps his conversation with the Egyptian priest on a mythical level, and his discussion of the two types of world destruction, by fire or water, is astronomical.

The "floods" refer to an old astronomical image, based on an abstract geometry. That this is not an "easy picture" is not to be wondered at, considering the objective difficulty of the science of astronomy. But although a modern reader does not expect a text on celestial mechanics to read like a lullaby, he insists on his capacity to understand mythical "images" instantly, because he can respect as "scientific" only page-long approximation formulas, and the like.

He does not think of the possibility that equally relevant knowledge might once have been expressed in everyday language. He never suspects such a possibility, although the visible accomplishments of ancient cultures -- to mention only the pyramids, or metallurgy -- should be a cogent reason for concluding that serious and intelligent men were at work behind the stage, men who were bound to have used a technical terminology.

Thus, archaic "imagery" is strictly verbal, representing a specific type of scientific language, which must not be taken at its face value nor accepted as expressing more or less childish "beliefs." Cosmic phenomena and rules were articulated in the language, or terminology, of myth, where each key word was at least as "dark" as the equations and convergent series by means of which our modern scientific grammar is built up.

Edited July 22, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

A simple question, just to nail down a detail. When did Noah's flood occur? I'm not looking for an exact date. I'll accept anything close, even a decade or a century, just to figure out a timeline. PLease don't come with multiple options if they are more than a century apart, unless you are talking about multiple events.

Are you saying once one person mentions a time no one else can disagree?

[bcuzbcuz]

Are you saying once one person mentions a time no one else can disagree?

No, that is not at all what I am saying. I am, however, saying that whoever gives a date must stick to their own date. It can't be a multiple choice where: D) All of the above are correct.

Edited July 22, 2012 by bcuzbcuz

[Calm]

Why not? If one see the Flood as being representative of multiple events, couldn't it have more than one date attached to it?

[thesometimesaint]

There has been a few times in world history when water covered the entire planet, but none have been when our species was on it.

[Ron Beron]

Jan. 16, 4025 BC at 10:16 in the morning. Don't quote me, though, I might be off.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Ron Beron

[cinepro]

A simple question, just to nail down a detail. When did Noah's flood occur? I'm not looking for an exact date. I'll accept anything close, even a decade or a century, just to figure out a timeline. PLease don't come with multiple options if they are more than a century apart, unless you are talking about multiple events.

The Church has always presented Noah's flood as having occurred between 2400 and 2300 BC, based on Adam's Fall having occurred around 4000 BC.

This dating is a huge embarrassement for many members of the Church (since, according to science, it is totally implausible). Which is why so many responses in this thread didn't answer your question.

These are the two most common timelines published by the Church for the Old Testament:

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/01/old-testament-times-at-a-glance

http://institute.lds.org/content/images/manuals/ot-in-1/map-p08-9.htm

[Calm]

This dating is a huge embarrassement for many members of the Church (since, according to science, it is totally implausible). Which is why so many responses in this thread didn't answer your question.

Right, it must be embarrassment, it can't possibly be that many members are perfectly comfortable with disagreeing with this standard nonsalvific church teaching and haven't answered because they are open to a variety of ideas about the event.

[Freedom]

The Church has always presented Noah's flood as having occurred between 2400 and 2300 BC, based on Adam's Fall having occurred around 4000 BC.

This dating is a huge embarrassement for many members of the Church (since, according to science, it is totally implausible). Which is why so many responses in this thread didn't answer your question.

Yes, when ever I year the word 'flood' in the news I am filled with a deep and penetrating feeling of utter humiliation.

I do not have a problem with the flood being global, John Widtsoe suggested that it being global does not necessitate that it was deep. When it rains outside the whole earth is covered in water; we just assume that it was two miles deep. the official publications indicate a timeline but it is based on existing estimates based on the text. My position is that we do not know when or where it occurred. We cannot definitively state the scope or the global ramifications. The text is simply too vague and the language too ancient to produce an accurate theory. There is no reason to conclude that we would find archaeological evidence to support the specific story of Noah so I doubt we can rely on science to provide any answers.

[thesometimesaint]

The science just isn't there for anything like described in

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/01/old-testament-times-at-a-glance

[cinepro]

A simple question, just to nail down a detail. When did Noah's flood occur? I'm not looking for an exact date. I'll accept anything close, even a decade or a century, just to figure out a timeline. PLease don't come with multiple options if they are more than a century apart, unless you are talking about multiple events.

And just in case you were wondering what Church leaders and scholars have taught in Church publications about the flood (including its scope and reality), I've collected every quote from official Church publications that I could find here:

The Church and a Global Flood

Edited July 22, 2012 by cinepro

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

Not single person alive today will be saved by what Noah did.

[cinepro]

cinepro:

Not single person alive today will be saved by what Noah did.

But, as our "second Adam", we wouldn't be here if he didn't.

Edited July 22, 2012 by cinepro

[cwald]

It was a literal event and it covered the whole earth....and it happened 2400 and 2300 BC

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets. January 1998 Ensign, The Flood and the Tower of Babel, Donald W.. Parry

Edited July 22, 2012 by cwald

[cwald]

not today much like Noah’s day when the population of the earth was wiped out in the flood and but eight righteous souls were spared? Some doubt that there was a flood, but by modern revelation we know that it did take place.

Elder Mark Petersen, “Follow the Prophets”. October 1981 General Conference

The Lord further indicated that all flesh was corrupt in those days, and so he brought forth the flood and destroyed all flesh except Noah and his family. Therefore, we are all descendants of righteous Noah. But the family concept is under very serious attack today all over the world.

Elder Hartman Rector, Jr., “Turning the Hearts”. April 1981 General Conference.

There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only “eight souls were saved” (1 Pet. 3:20).

President Gordon B. Hinckley, “If Ye Are Prepared, Ye Shall Not Fear”. October 2005 General Conference.

Another one was Noah, who was chosen to be the second father of the human race here on earth, after the flood.

Elder William Bennett, “Covenants and Blessings”. October 1975 General Conference.

Two generations later the Lord was so pained by that generation “without affection” (Moses 7:33) that he opened the windows of heaven and cleansed the entire earth with water.

Jeffry R. Holland, “A Promised Land”. Ensign, June 1976.

[bcuzbcuz]

Why not? If one see the Flood as being representative of multiple events, couldn't it have more than one date attached to it?

Can you show me where multiple floods are written about which I might consider as "multiple events" with "more than one date"?

[bcuzbcuz]

Whenever it happened, it was in all likelihood not a physical flood:

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be thick but your quote only confused me. Is it saying that although ancients had the technology to build pyramids that they nevertheless engaged in childish story telling of myths of floods, or is it saying that their technological skills illustrate that they told stories that concealed actual events?

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

If I invented a time machine and went back in time and killed my Great Grandfather would I be alive today?

[bcuzbcuz]

There has been a few times in world history when water covered the entire planet, but none have been when our species was on it.

Can I interpret your post to say that Noah's flood, with all mankind save 8, plus all animals and plants, save 2 of the unclean and 7 of the clean animals, were wiped off the surface of the planet, is a fictional event?

[bcuzbcuz]

Jan. 16, 4025 BC at 10:16 in the morning. Don't quote me, though, I might be off.

Duly noted.

[thesometimesaint]

bcuzbcuz:

See Ziggurats

[bcuzbcuz]

Right, it must be embarrassment, it can't possibly be that many members are perfectly comfortable with disagreeing with this standard nonsalvific church teaching and haven't answered because they are open to a variety of ideas about the event.

Are you saying that because Noah's flood is not an issue necessary to salvation it therefore falls outside the realm of being verifiable?

[Calm]

Are you saying that because Noah's flood is not an issue necessary to salvation it therefore falls outside the realm of being verifiable?

No.

[thesometimesaint]

bcusbcuz:

See Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

HE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation.

The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep or deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127].