Dna Research By Ugo Perego

[dougtheavenger]

The single most widely known fact about Mormons is that we practiced polygamy during the 19th century. So I'm a little skeptical about people who say they have lost their testimony upon hearing that Joseph Smith had plural wives. That said, I doubt that Joseph Smith had plural wives. The question is a matter of history and subject to revision. There is no doctrine at stake because polygamy is clearly sanctioned by D&C 132 not to mention the Old Testament.

My opinion that Joseph Smith probably was monogamous is based largely on DNA research by Ugo Perego. To date we have found no descendants of Joseph Smith through any woman other than Emma Hale Smith. By contrast other well known polygamists have many descendants through many women. Genghis Khan is the uber example. There are more than 15 million men with Genghis Khans Y-chromosome or 0.5% of the total male population of planet Earth. History clearly shows, that polygamous males have more children than monogamous males.

The current preponderance of evidence says that Joseph Smith's reproductive history is indistinguishable from that of a monogamist. That strongly suggests that Joseph Smith's sex life was either monogamous and nearly monogamous. Three plural wives would be a stretch. Thirty three is preposterous. That means that at least 90% of the allegations of polygamy involving Joseph Smith are false. Any single allegation has a 0% to 10% probability of being true and 90% to 100% probability of being false.

Edited July 18, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[Anijen]

Joseph did practice polygamy. Even Ugo Perego whom you use his research believes this. By the way Brother Perego is awesome.

Emma even wrote about Josephs' polygamy. Joseph practiced polygamy and polyandry yet IMO he only fathered children through Emma. I do not know why this is, and if he was with many other women odds are he should have had some children, but as of yet not one child has been proven to be Josephs outside of Emma.

With or without polygamous children the Church is still true and is led by the Lord.

[Hamilton Porter]

My opinion that Joseph Smith probably was monogamous is based largely on DNA research by Ugo Perego. To date we have found no descendants of Joseph Smith through any woman other than Emma Hale Smith. By contrast other well known polygamists have many descendants through many women. Genghis Khan is the uber example. There are more than 15 million men with Genghis Khans Y-chromosome or 0.5% of the total male population of planet Earth. History clearly shows, that polygamous males have more children than monogamous males.

Ugo Perego has Genghis Khan Y-chromosome, I believe.

[dougtheavenger]

Joseph did practice polygamy. Even Ugo Perego whom you use his research believes this. By the way Brother Perego is awesome.

Emma even wrote about Josephs' polygamy. Joseph practiced polygamy and polyandry yet IMO he only fathered children through Emma. I do not know why this is, and if he was with many other women odds are he should have had some children, but as of yet not one child has been proven to be Josephs outside of Emma.

With or without polygamous children the Church is still true and is led by the Lord.

With all due respect to brother Perego, he is entitled to his own opinion. I have a different one.

I take issue with your statement as to what Emma Smith said. Here is a direct quote from her.

"No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of...He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have."

source - Church History, Volume 3, pp. 355-356

[LoudmouthMormon]

The single most widely known fact about Mormons is that we practiced polygamy during the 19th century.

Sorry, that's only #7.

The Single Most Widely Known Fact About Mormons Top 10 List

10. Mitt Romney is one.

9. The church owns stock in Coors

8. Horns

7. Mormons practiced polygamy during the 19th century

6. "Ain't you guys the guys what got all them wives?"

5. "Ain't you guys the guys what don't believe in Jesus?"

4. Family. Isn't it about... Time?

3. Steve Martin really isn't one - that's just a hoax.

2. We hafta give 10% of our money to the church.

1. That one Southpark episode.

I doubt that Joseph Smith had plural wives. The question is a matter of history and subject to revision.

Every decade that goes by leaves the earth with fewer people willing to revise history to make Joseph Smith not have plural wives. Glad to have met you here in 2012. Edited July 18, 2012 by LoudmouthMormon

[mrmandias]

The single most widely known fact about Mormons is that we practiced polygamy during the 19th century. So I'm a little skeptical about people who say they have lost their testimony upon hearing that Joseph Smith had plural wives. That said, I doubt that Joseph Smith had plural wives. The question is a matter of history and subject to revision. There is no doctrine at stake because polygamy is clearly sanctioned by D&C 132 not to mention the Old Testament.

My opinion that Joseph Smith probably was monogamous is based largely on DNA research by Ugo Perego. To date we have found no descendants of Joseph Smith through any woman other than Emma Hale Smith. By contrast other well known polygamists have many descendants through many women. Genghis Khan is the uber example. There are more than 15 million men with Genghis Khans Y-chromosome or 0.5% of the total male population of planet Earth. History clearly shows, that polygamous males have more children than monogamous males.

The current preponderance of evidence says that Joseph Smith's reproductive history is indistinguishable from that of a monogamist. That strongly suggests that Joseph Smith's sex life was either monogamous and nearly monogamous. Three plural wives would be a stretch. Thirty three is preposterous. That means that at least 90% of the allegations of polygamy involving Joseph Smith are false. Any single allegation has a 0% to 10% probability of being true and 90% to 100% probability of being false.

Well, that is hard to explain. And to be fair to your point of view, some of Emma's jealousy, for example, is probably still explicable even if the marriages were platonic. Most wives, including my own, would not be much mollified by the 'married but no sex' excuse for having other women in one's life.

On the other hand, well, the Western and especially Restoration understanding of marriage is inherently physical. Polygamy in Jacob and Section 132 is about having seed. Which means sex. As we can see in the Utah period when polygamy was practiced openly, the brethren who were close to Joseph certainly understood polygamous marriage to be conjugal.

So while I'm willing to believe that some of the marriages did not involve coupling (the polyandrous marriages, perhaps), I'm not willing to believe they all were. The lack of issue is probably a fluke.

[Buzzard]

Well, that is hard to explain. And to be fair to your point of view, some of Emma's jealousy, for example, is probably still explicable even if the marriages were platonic. Most wives, including my own, would not be much mollified by the 'married but no sex' excuse for having other women in one's life.

On the other hand, well, the Western and especially Restoration understanding of marriage is inherently physical. Polygamy in Jacob and Section 132 is about having seed. Which means sex. As we can see in the Utah period when polygamy was practiced openly, the brethren who were close to Joseph certainly understood polygamous marriage to be conjugal.

So while I'm willing to believe that some of the marriages did not involve coupling (the polyandrous marriages, perhaps), I'm not willing to believe they all were. The lack of issue is probably a fluke.

Or the possibility that any conjugal visits to plural wives were few and far between, while he lived with Emma full time.

I too, am of the camp that says JS was polygamous, but only intimate with a small fraction of the women he was sealed to.

[Verum]

The single most widely known fact about Mormons is that we practiced polygamy during the 19th century. So I'm a little skeptical about people who say they have lost their testimony upon hearing that Joseph Smith had plural wives. That said, I doubt that Joseph Smith had plural wives. The question is a matter of history and subject to revision. There is no doctrine at stake because polygamy is clearly sanctioned by D&C 132 not to mention the Old Testament.

My opinion that Joseph Smith probably was monogamous is based largely on DNA research by Ugo Perego. To date we have found no descendants of Joseph Smith through any woman other than Emma Hale Smith. By contrast other well known polygamists have many descendants through many women. Genghis Khan is the uber example. There are more than 15 million men with Genghis Khans Y-chromosome or 0.5% of the total male population of planet Earth. History clearly shows, that polygamous males have more children than monogamous males.

The current preponderance of evidence says that Joseph Smith's reproductive history is indistinguishable from that of a monogamist. That strongly suggests that Joseph Smith's sex life was either monogamous and nearly monogamous. Three plural wives would be a stretch. Thirty three is preposterous. That means that at least 90% of the allegations of polygamy involving Joseph Smith are false. Any single allegation has a 0% to 10% probability of being true and 90% to 100% probability of being false.

Always humorous to see the irony of using DNA evidence to try and support church's claims while at the same time rejecting its use when it provides support for issues that challenge it.

I think even most prominent church leaders and historians acknowledge Joseph was NOT a monogomist, but whether he reproduced in those relationships is debatable and probably unlikely.

[dougtheavenger]

Well, that is hard to explain. And to be fair to your point of view, some of Emma's jealousy, for example, is probably still explicable even if the marriages were platonic. Most wives, including my own, would not be much mollified by the 'married but no sex' excuse for having other women in one's life.

On the other hand, well, the Western and especially Restoration understanding of marriage is inherently physical. Polygamy in Jacob and Section 132 is about having seed. Which means sex. As we can see in the Utah period when polygamy was practiced openly, the brethren who were close to Joseph certainly understood polygamous marriage to be conjugal.

So while I'm willing to believe that some of the marriages did not involve coupling (the polyandrous marriages, perhaps), I'm not willing to believe they all were. The lack of issue is probably a fluke.

I am not closed to the idea that Joseph Smith had plural wives but the evidence is against his having 30 or 20 or 10 or even 5. A plausible number given the DNA evidence or absence of offspring is 1 or 2.

[dougtheavenger]

Always humorous to see the irony of using DNA evidence to try and support church's claims while at the same time rejecting its use when it provides support for issues that challenge it.

I think even most prominent church leaders and historians acknowledge Joseph was NOT a monogomist, but whether he reproduced in those relationships is debatable and probably unlikely.

It is equaly humorous to see critics of the church claim that the absence of DNA evidence refutes the Book of Mormon while the absence of Joseph Smith's DNA in any living human not also descended from Emma Hale Smith proves nothing. That is one reason why enjoy making this argument.

BTW

The following facts are seldom known by those using the DNA vs Book of Mormon argument.

1. The primary Native American Y-chromosome belongs to a lineage group designated as Q. The nearest relative of Q is R which is the main Y-chromosome lineage of Europe.

2. The Q haplogroup is the most widespread lineage in the Old World World; found from Norway to Korea, from India to Siberia. It is found in 1% of Egyptians, 2% of Lebanese, 2.5% of Saudis, 5% of Iraqi Jews, 15% of Yemenite Jews.

3. Using the observed mutation rate of 2.1/1000 (Weber & Wong) most Native American males appear to be descended from one male ancestor who lived around 150 BC. (Underhill 1996)

4. The oldest strains of Q1a3 in Siberia go back 6,000 years at most. Ergo, there is no direct connection between Siberians of Q1a3 lineage and American Indians of Q1a3 lineage.

Edited July 18, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[dougtheavenger]

Every decade that goes by leaves the earth with fewer people willing to revise history to make Joseph Smith not have plural wives. Glad to have met you here in 2012.

In other words, now that everyone who might have had any real knowledge is long dead, anybody can say anything. There is a reason that US law has a statute of limitation on most crimes. It is because trying to get the truth of what happened at a given time becomes more difficult as time passes.

[Calm]

There is no doctrine at stake because polygamy is clearly sanctioned by D&C 132 not to mention the Old Testament.

Would you please explain what you think is going on in 132 in regards to Joseph then.

[dougtheavenger]

Why does US law impose a statute of limitations on most crimes?

This question is relevant to church history and especially to the question of how many wives Joseph Smith had because the alleged facts, if they are fact rather than fiction, were veiled in secrecy.

1. Witnesses die or dissappear.

2. Physical evidence and documents are lost or destroyed.

3. Physical evidence and documents are manufactured or forged.

All documents entered into evidence in a US court must be authenticated by a living person who can testify firsthand that said document has the origin it is purported to have.

All witnesses can be cross-examined to see if their stories hold up against other established facts as to time and place.

Trials held more than 7 years after an event are recognized for the most part to be shams.

The idea that we have a better picture of what happened in the private life of Joseph Smith and his alleged plural wives between 1841 and 1844 in Nauvoo Illinois as time passes, is ludicrous. The picture got murky the moment Joseph Smith died and it continued to get murlier until all parties were dead. It remains murky. The only light shed on the case in a century is DNA.

Edited July 19, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[USU78]

Would you please explain what you think is going on in 132 in regards to Joseph then.

I like this one:

50 Behold, I have seen your ^asacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your ^bsacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I ^caccepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

[dougtheavenger]

Would you please explain what you think is going on in 132 in regards to Joseph then.

Sorry but your question is difficult to understand. What are you asking?

[Hamilton Porter]

Always humorous to see the irony of using DNA evidence to try and support church's claims while at the same time rejecting its use when it provides support for issues that challenge it.

When did the church reject DNA evidence that challenged its claims? Link?

[Calm]

Sorry but your question is difficult to understand. What are you asking?

What do you think 132 is talking about when it references what Joseph should do and what he has done.

For example:

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

[Glenn101]

I think that Emma Smith chose her words very carefully.

Glenn

[BCSpace]

I take issue with your statement as to what Emma Smith said. Here is a direct quote from her.

"No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of...He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have."

source - Church History, Volume 3, pp. 355-356

I think your OP brings out at least one important point. "Have you checked the children" remains an almost impossible barrier to the notion that JS was not divinely motivated when he restored plural marriage. That he so far is known to have issue only with Emma is certainly not much of a fluke considering the chances of a 19th century man having issue with multiple partners.

I can't help but think that "plural marriage" in those early days of the Church would have been more aptly described by us modern folks as "plural sealings" or as some put it, dynastic marriages. Such does not preclude JS from having carnally known some of the women he was sealed to, but lack of issue is a HUGE indication that it was rare if not nonexistent.

Edited July 18, 2012 by BCSpace

[dougtheavenger]

What do you think 132 is talking about when it references what Joseph should do and what he has done.

For example:

What this means to us is that having been informed of the principle of eternal marriage and the blessings that pertain to it, we will loose the blessings pertaining to eternal marriage if we fail to enter into eternal marriage prior to the resurrection.

[dougtheavenger]

The single most widely known fact about Mormons is that we practiced polygamy during the 19th century. So I'm a little skeptical about people who say they have lost their testimony upon hearing that Joseph Smith had plural wives. That said, I doubt that Joseph Smith had plural wives. The question is a matter of history and subject to revision. There is no doctrine at stake because polygamy is clearly sanctioned by D&C 132 not to mention the Old Testament.

My opinion that Joseph Smith probably was monogamous is based largely on DNA research by Ugo Perego. To date we have found no descendants of Joseph Smith through any woman other than Emma Hale Smith. By contrast other well known polygamists have many descendants through many women. Genghis Khan is the uber example. There are more than 15 million men with Genghis Khans Y-chromosome or 0.5% of the total male population of planet Earth. History clearly shows, that polygamous males have more children than monogamous males.

The current preponderance of evidence says that Joseph Smith's reproductive history is indistinguishable from that of a monogamist. That strongly suggests that Joseph Smith's sex life was either monogamous and nearly monogamous. Three plural wives would be a stretch. Thirty three is preposterous. That means that at least 90% of the allegations of polygamy involving Joseph Smith are false. Any single allegation has a 0% to 10% probability of being true and 90% to 100% probability of being false.

Perhaps a clarification is called for. Just in case it is not understood by some, this post is talking about whether Joseph Smith had plural wives during his mortal life. I acknowledge that several women were sealed to Joseph Smith in the Nauvoo temple in 1846. Of course, Joseph Smith died in 1844. For example, Helen Mar Kimball was sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity on February 3, 1846 in the Nauvoo temple. She was 16 years of age. Standing proxy for Joseph Smith, who was then deceased, was Horace Whitney, age 22. On the same day in the temple, Horace Whitney and Helen Mar Kimball were sealed for time; that is, married for life. The next day, February 4, 1846, Horace Whitney was sealed to Elizabeth Ford Sikes for eternity. Helen stood as proxy for Elizabeth who was deceased at the time. Horace had known Elizabeth before her death but was never married to her.

Edited July 19, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[phaedrus ut]

I've yet to see any evidence that Joseph practiced some sort of different polygamy. I've only see evidence from the wives of Joseph that they were fully married just like Brigham was to his wives. There are numerous journal entries from the wives and their family members talking about the marriages and statements from others like Brigham Young about Joseph's polygamy. In addition to all of that there are 13 legally sworn affidavits from his wives that they were not only plural wives but they specifically said they were intimate. Some affidavits were very specific like Emily D. Partridge said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. Melissa Lott testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed". In addition to the legal affidavits from the 13 wives there were other legal affidavits given in the Temple Lot Case such as Joseph Noble's testimony that after the sealing Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman.

I have yet to see a single source, journal entry, testimony that suggests Joseph practiced some sort of platonic polygamy.

Phaedrus

[dougtheavenger]

I've yet to see any evidence that Joseph practiced some sort of different polygamy. I've only see evidence from the wives of Joseph that they were fully married just like Brigham was to his wives. There are numerous journal entries from the wives and their family members talking about the marriages and statements from others like Brigham Young about Joseph's polygamy. In addition to all of that there are 13 legally sworn affidavits from his wives that they were not only plural wives but they specifically said they were intimate. Some affidavits were very specific like Emily D. Partridge said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. Melissa Lott testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed". In addition to the legal affidavits from the 13 wives there were other legal affidavits given in the Temple Lot Case such as Joseph Noble's testimony that after the sealing Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman.

I have yet to see a single source, journal entry, testimony that suggests Joseph practiced some sort of platonic polygamy.

Phaedrus

Care to provide links and/or references to the "13 legally sworn affidavits".

[blackstrap]

Unless my biology class was in error, it only takes once to produce a child. Many,many women have claimed that they only did it 'once' and got pregnant. That said,sex threads are discouraged so let's stick to DNA threads.

[dougtheavenger]

Clamoriah references the following in D&C 132

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

The following text appears at the head of the section.

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

Now my opinion is that verse 59 refers to the women who would be sealed to Joseph Smith in 1846; two years after his death. Since no names are mentioned that is just a guess.

It also appears that Joseph Smith was aware of the "doctrines and principles involved" as early as 1831. So the principle of eternal marriage and possibly polygamy was known in 1831. So that is 13 years that the principle was known but no offspring. In light of DNA evidence the case that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy gets weaker the more wives you add and the more years you add to to his alleged plural marriages. This would suggest that Joseph Smith knew the principle of plural marriage long before practicing it if he ever practiced it.

If the revelation was given in July 1843, and that is when the law became effective; meaning polygamy was sanctioned from that point onward, then what does that say about allegations of plural marriage involving Joseph Smith in 1833, 1838, 1841, 1842, and the first half of 1843? There are 29 such allegations. In fact the only women alleged to have married Smith after July 1843 were Olive Frost (27), Melissa Lott (19), Nancy Winchester (14? or 15?), and Fanny Young (56). The case for Joseph Smith practicing polygamy is far more plausible if the 29 pre-July-1843 allegations are thrown out and you go with the 4 post July-1843 allegations which involve 4 women only 3 of which are of child-bearing years. It should also be noted that Nancy Winchester was one of the women sealed to Joseph Smith in 1846 after his death. Why would that be neccessary if she became his wife prior to June 1844?

Remember, I do not have a problem with plural marriage. I just have a problem with the evidence. I am not willing to accept a 170 year-old document when no living person can verify it and it was allegedly written in secret. I prefer to put my faith in hard evidence such as DNA.

Edited July 22, 2012 by dougtheavenger