Dna Research By Ugo Perego

[dougtheavenger]

Unless my biology class was in error, it only takes once to produce a child. Many,many women have claimed that they only did it 'once' and got pregnant. That said,sex threads are discouraged so let's stick to DNA threads.

Joseph Smith was married to Emma for 17 years; a little over 200 months. Emma bore 9 children. Two of the 9 were twins. That is 8*9 = 72 months or 6 years of pregnancy. So for months of marriage when Emma was not pregnant, the couple appeared to go for about 16.5 months between conceptions on average. If you accept all 33 allegations of plural marriage, this amounts to something in excess of 400 combined months of marriage and no conception, no pregnancy, no offspring.

Edited July 22, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[Zeta-Flux]

I've yet to see any evidence that Joseph practiced some sort of different polygamy. I've only see evidence from the wives of Joseph that they were fully married just like Brigham was to his wives. There are numerous journal entries from the wives and their family members talking about the marriages and statements from others like Brigham Young about Joseph's polygamy. In addition to all of that there are 13 legally sworn affidavits from his wives that they were not only plural wives but they specifically said they were intimate. Some affidavits were very specific like Emily D. Partridge said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. Melissa Lott testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed". In addition to the legal affidavits from the 13 wives there were other legal affidavits given in the Temple Lot Case such as Joseph Noble's testimony that after the sealing Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman.

I have yet to see a single source, journal entry, testimony that suggests Joseph practiced some sort of platonic polygamy.

Phaedrus

phaedrus,

How about the sealings which happened after he died?

[Calm]

Care to provide links and/or references to the "13 legally sworn affidavits".

I don't know if this site has them, but it has a lot of other research you might be interested in. The author has done some great stuff and has kindly put it online:

http://www.josephsmi....com/index.html

add-on: looks like he is still working on getting the documents/references up

Edited July 22, 2012 by calmoriah

[dougtheavenger]

Along with DNA evidence provided by Ugo Perego, there is the following

1. Statement by Emman Hale Smith - "No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of...He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have. ^{" -} Source - Church History, Volume 3, pp. 355-356

2. The date D&C 132 was recorded, 12 July 1843, which post-dates 29 of the 33 alleged plural marriages of Joseph Smith.

3. The fact that several of the women allegedly sealed to Joseph Smith during his life were sealed to him in the Nauvoo temple in 1846, two years after his death.

[Jaybear]

Along with DNA evidence provided by Ugo Perego, there is the following

1. Statement by Emman Hale Smith - "No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of...He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have. ^{" -} Source - Church History, Volume 3, pp. 355-356

2. The date D&C 132 was recorded, 12 July 1843, which post-dates 29 of the 33 alleged plural marriages of Joseph Smith.

3. The fact that several of the women allegedly sealed to Joseph Smith during his life were sealed to him in the Nauvoo temple in 1846, two years after his death.

Looks to me like you are starting with conclusion that Smith was not a polygamist and then looking for facts to support that conclusion.

If you want to effectively rebut the allegation, you need to first address the evidence which serve as the basis for those who believe smith participated in polygamy.

[phaedrus ut]

Care to provide links and/or references to the "13 legally sworn affidavits".

The fact that they exist should be well known to you since your original post suggests that all of this is widely known to members of the church. The majority of these legally sworn affidavits can be found in two sources. First is the Joseph F. Smith Affidavit collection stored in the LDS church archives but reprinted in various locations. The second source for the affidavits testimony of Joseph' plural wives are in the records of the Temple Lot Case. The complete transcript of the Temple Lot Case is more than 1750 pages but copies are available at the Community of Christ Archives and on microfilm at LDS CHL.

You can find many of the Joseph F. Smith affidavits collection here in Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage - a correspondence between Joseph F. Smith and Richard Evans of the RLDS church.

Nearly every biography of Joseph or Emma that covers the details of Joseph's polygamy references these testimony. Many reprints of the affidavits can be found in The Mormon Experience: A History of the Latter-Day Saints By Leonard J. Arrington, Davis Bitton, Religion and Sexuality: The Shakers, the Mormons, and the Oneida Community - by Lawrence Foster, and The Rise of Mormonism: 1816-1844 By H. Michael Marquardt. . The affidavits are referenced in books like Rough Stone Rolling, In Sacred Loneliness, Mormon Enigma, and this FARMS Review The Prophet Joseph Smith and His Plural Wives.

Can you find me references from Joseph's wives saying his marriages were platonic?

Phaedrus

Edited July 23, 2012 by phaedrus ut

[Alan]

Having studied this question for several years I came to the conclusion some time ago that Joseph was not a polygamist. He said he wasn't and I believe him.

He may well have been sealed to any number of women but it is only in the intervening years since that "sealing" and "marriage" have become one and the same thing in our collecteve church minds.

I believe the church got into this mindset in an attempt to justify Utah Mormon polygamy in the face of opposition from the RLDS. That Joseph taught polygamy in the right circumstances was ok, I have little doubt. That Brigham and others were justified in practicing it, I equally have little doubt. But that does not make Joseph a polygamist anymore than it makes me one.

So, to conclude, Joseph was very likely sealed to a number of women but these were never regarded as marriages until they passed through the filter of interpretive hindsight and historical revision. Joseph himself publicly stated just days before his death that he was not a polygamist and had only one wife. He also claimed that all those who had sworn otherwise were purjurers and he could prove it. That is good enough for me.

[Cobalt-70]

I think the historical record is clear that Smith slept with at least several of his plural wives. However, unlike Brigham Young and later polygamists, Joseph Smith had a very significant and understandable motivation to make sure that none of his children were born to his polygamous wives. In Smith's era, polygamy was a tightly-controlled secret, and if the secret got out, his life, and the survival of the church, could have been in jeopardy.

In the early 1800s, there were several available methods of birth control, the most effective being abortion. There were some allegations at the time that Dr. John C. Bennett was performing abortions in Nauvoo. These allegations are fairly credible, because one was contemporary and came from Hyrum Smith. What we don't know, however, is whether the allegations by Sarah Pratt, that Bennett performed abortions for Smith's wives, at Smith's behest, are credible. Even if Smith never encouraged Bennett to perform abortions for his wives, it is possible that Bennett took that responsibility upon himself without Smith's knowledge. Also important is that Bennett left Nauvoo in May 1842, and thus this theory does not explain the lack of known births from then until Smith's death. If abortion was never a factor at all, then that does not rule out Smith's use of other birth control methods. If such methods were used, it is highly unlikely that anyone at the time would have talked about them.

Maybe they just exposed the newborns because they didn't talk about that either. You are out of the thread.

[USU78]

I think the historical record is clear that Smith slept with at least several of his plural wives. However, unlike Brigham Young and later polygamists, Joseph Smith had a very significant and understandable motivation to make sure that none of his children were born to his polygamous wives. In Smith's era, polygamy was a tightly-controlled secret, and if the secret got out, his life, and the survival of the church, could have been in jeopardy.

In the early 1800s, there were several available methods of birth control, the most effective being abortion. There were some allegations at the time that Dr. John C. Bennett was performing abortions in Nauvoo. These allegations are fairly credible, because one was contemporary and came from Hyrum Smith. What we don't know, however, is whether the allegations by Sarah Pratt, that Bennett performed abortions for Smith's wives, at Smith's behest, are credible. Even if Smith never encouraged Bennett to perform abortions for his wives, it is possible that Bennett took that responsibility upon himself without Smith's knowledge. Also important is that Bennett left Nauvoo in May 1842, and thus this theory does not explain the lack of known births from then until Smith's death. If abortion was never a factor at all, then that does not rule out Smith's use of other birth control methods. If such methods were used, it is highly unlikely that anyone at the time would have talked about them.

That just has to be one of the sickest speculations I've ever read about the private life of JSJr.

But don't let's get all bogged down on evidentiary issues. Let the speculation and presentism flourish and flow!

[dougtheavenger]

I think the historical record is clear that Smith slept with at least several of his plural wives. However, unlike Brigham Young and later polygamists, Joseph Smith had a very significant and understandable motivation to make sure that none of his children were born to his polygamous wives. In Smith's era, polygamy was a tightly-controlled secret, and if the secret got out, his life, and the survival of the church, could have been in jeopardy.

In the early 1800s, there were several available methods of birth control, the most effective being abortion. There were some allegations at the time that Dr. John C. Bennett was performing abortions in Nauvoo. These allegations are fairly credible, because one was contemporary and came from Hyrum Smith. What we don't know, however, is whether the allegations by Sarah Pratt, that Bennett performed abortions for Smith's wives, at Smith's behest, are credible. Even if Smith never encouraged Bennett to perform abortions for his wives, it is possible that Bennett took that responsibility upon himself without Smith's knowledge. Also important is that Bennett left Nauvoo in May 1842, and thus this theory does not explain the lack of known births from then until Smith's death. If abortion was never a factor at all, then that does not rule out Smith's use of other birth control methods. If such methods were used, it is highly unlikely that anyone at the time would have talked about them.

Maybe they just exposed the newborns because they didn't talk about that either. You are out of the thread.

There were no specific allegation of abortion involving any of the alleged plural wives of Joseph Smith. Nobody leveled any accusation at the time that Sister _______ had an abortion. This would have been actionable of course. The accuser would end up in court forced to defend the accusation. The abortion line is thrown out as a general allegation, without names, dates or any evidence in answer to the question "Where are the offspring of Joseph Smith?"

Sarah Pratt in her general accusation also claimed that some of Joseph Smith's wives were married. In those cases, there was no need to fear a pregnancy. Attempting to terminate such a pregnancy would entail far greater risk than not. In Joseph Smith's day there was no DNA technology, no paternity test. He could simply deny paternaty and nobody could prove otherwise. As we know now, all testable allegations of offspring of Joseph through women other than Emma have been proven false by DNA testing. This is true of, then unmarried, Fanny Alger's first child and five alleged offspring of Smith with married women.

The abortion accusation is a desperate attempt to salvage a myth in the face of strong hard evidence to the contrary.

Again, one or two plural wives is still plausible, just not 33.

[dougtheavenger]

I think the historical record is clear that Smith slept with at least several of his plural wives.

This statement epitomizes the absurdity of many allegations. It is naive to believe that you actually know what went on in the private lives of people 170 years ago. The alleged relationships were either secret or fictional. There is no credible historical record who slept with who beyond marriage records. Almost none of the evidence is of a quality that would make it admissable in any court in the English speaking world.

[Nemesis]

This thread will be closed if it continues to be a thread speculating on sex and not on the op. Get it back on track please.

Nemesis

[dougtheavenger]

I've yet to see any evidence that Joseph practiced some sort of different polygamy. I've only see evidence from the wives of Joseph that they were fully married just like Brigham was to his wives. There are numerous journal entries from the wives and their family members talking about the marriages and statements from others like Brigham Young about Joseph's polygamy. In addition to all of that there are 13 legally sworn affidavits from his wives that they were not only plural wives but they specifically said they were intimate. Some affidavits were very specific like Emily D. Partridge said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. Melissa Lott testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed". In addition to the legal affidavits from the 13 wives there were other legal affidavits given in the Temple Lot Case such as Joseph Noble's testimony that after the sealing Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman.

I have yet to see a single source, journal entry, testimony that suggests Joseph practiced some sort of platonic polygamy.

Phaedrus

Interview of Brigham Young by Horace Greely 1859

Horace Greely — "What is the largest number of wives belonging to any one man?"

Brigham Young — "I have fifteen; I know no one who has more but some of those sealed to me are old ladies whom I regard rather as mothers than wives, but whom I have taken home to cherish and support."

http://www.utlm.org/..._july131859.htm

Note that Brigham Young says he has 15 wives in 1859. However, some insist that he had 18 wives living at this time. Does Brigham Young have a reason to lie? Obviously not . It seems more probable that the "historical record" is innacurate.

http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jay/Brigham_Young/Brigham_Young.html

Edited July 24, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[dougtheavenger]

...

Some affidavits were very specific like Emily D. Partridge said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.

...

Phaedrus

Really? I got this quote from

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/2021-EmilyandElizaPartridge.htm

Not that I place complete trust in it but those who insist that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy are unlikely to leave out the details you describe.

"...Well I was married there and then. Joseph went home his way and I going my way alone. A strange way of getting married wasen’t it?”

The only testimony of this women sharing a room with Joseph Smith comes from Benjamin Johnson, who allegedly said

"The prophet...Came and...ocupied the Same Room & Bed with...the Daughter of the Late Bishop Partridge”.

Note that Johnson goes beyond what he is likely to have actually known. If he were alive today to question, we would want to ask him how he knew the shared not just the same room but the same bed.

[phaedrus ut]

Really? I got this quote from

http://www.wivesofjo...zaPartridge.htm

Not that I place complete trust in it but those who insist that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy are unlikely to leave out the details you describe.

"...Well I was married there and then. Joseph went home his way and I going my way alone. A strange way of getting married wasen’t it?”

The quote from Emily Partridge quote comes from her sworn testimony in the Temple Lot Case. You can see the specific quotes on the Temple Lot Case complete transcript I referenced above on pages 364, 367, 384.

The only testimony of this women sharing a room with Joseph Smith comes from Benjamin Johnson, who allegedly said

"The prophet...Came and...ocupied the Same Room & Bed with...the Daughter of the Late Bishop Partridge”.

Note that Johnson goes beyond what he is likely to have actually known. If he were alive today to question, we would want to ask him how he knew the shared not just the same room but the same bed.

That is not true. Why would you ask for reference to the affidavits and legal testimony of the wives and then completely ignore them. It's interested that in your attempt to hold on to Joseph's monogamy that you ignore the sworn statements of the wives and statements from secondary witnesses you assume that a recently married Joseph and his bride share the same room but you speculate that not the same bed.

Phaedrus

[phaedrus ut]

This statement epitomizes the absurdity of many allegations. It is naive to believe that you actually know what went on in the private lives of people 170 years ago. The alleged relationships were either secret or fictional. There is no credible historical record who slept with who beyond marriage records. Almost none of the evidence is of a quality that would make it admissable in any court in the English speaking world.

The funny part about your assertion is that it's exactly the opposite of true. That's why many of these wives said that they were Joseph's wives "in very deed" and were specific about their relations in sworn court testimony, sworn statements in the Utah territory in front of a officer of the court bearing the seal of the court, and statements notarized and sealed by a notary public.

It was all specifically admissible in court. That's why it's part of the court record.

Phaedrus

Edited July 24, 2012 by phaedrus ut

[Closet Doubter]

Having studied this question for several years I came to the conclusion some time ago that Joseph was not a polygamist. He said he wasn't and I believe him. . . . . . Joseph himself publicly stated just days before his death that he was not a polygamist and had only one wife. He also claimed that all those who had sworn otherwise were purjurers and he could prove it.

Part of the problem I have with Polygamy is what is stated here. Either Joseph is being less than truthful as stated above or Brigham Young was being less truthful in obtaining afadavits from many of the wives of Joseph stating the nature of their marriages. Unfortunately, my conclusion (whether it is accurate or not) is that it was Joseph that was less than truthful. I can accept that as something that was required at the time however the Church needs to clarify these points. Anyone who makes the claim that all the information is available and if we don't have it, it's because we are lazy or slothful can easily see the falacy of this by the number of posters here that are obviously not slothful that have varied information.

[Calm]

Really? I got this quote from

http://www.wivesofjo...zaPartridge.htm

The individual who runs wivesofjosephsmith is anti polygamy so tends to edit the words to look worse then they are.

I would suggest using Brian Hales site as he is committed to accuracy and so far I have seen good work or using the quotes from the wives of Joseph site to track down their original comments and then read them in the original context.

[ERayR]

Part of the problem I have with Polygamy is what is stated here. Either Joseph is being less than truthful as stated above or Brigham Young was being less truthful in obtaining afadavits from many of the wives of Joseph stating the nature of their marriages. Unfortunately, my conclusion (whether it is accurate or not) is that it was Joseph that was less than truthful. I can accept that as something that was required at the time however the Church needs to clarify these points. Anyone who makes the claim that all the information is available and if we don't have it, it's because we are lazy or slothful can easily see the falacy of this by the number of posters here that are obviously not slothful that have varied information.

How can the church clarify these points? They will be working from the same documentation that everyone else is and there seems to be no way to get a consensus of opinion now.

[dougtheavenger]

The funny part about your assertion is that it's exactly the opposite of true. That's why many of these wives said that they were Joseph's wives "in very deed" and were specific about their relations in sworn court testimony, sworn statements in the Utah territory in front of a officer of the court bearing the seal of the court, and statements notarized and sealed by a notary public.

It was all specifically admissible in court. That's why it's part of the court record.

Phaedrus

First, I have doubts about the accuracy of your post. I don't think there were any sworn statements by women claiming to be wives of Joseph Smith and I don't think they made statements about their sex lives under oath. Why would they?

Second, no woman other than Emma ever claimed to be Joseph Smith's wife while he was alive. So he wasn't there to answer any of these statements, if, indeed they were made. It is customary to hear both sides of the story before passing judgement.

Third, Emma contradicts some of the claims made; such as, her being present during some marriages and/or knowing about them. Is Emma Smith lying? Her actions shortly before Joseph's death seem consistant with her story.

Fourth, At this point in history, we cannot question or cross-examine any of the persons regarding the claims they made. Would there stories stand up to other testimonies with regard to place and time?

Your persistent belief that you know 170 year after the fact what few, if any knew at the time is hard for me to understand.

[dougtheavenger]

Part of the problem I have with Polygamy is what is stated here. Either Joseph is being less than truthful as stated above or Brigham Young was being less truthful in obtaining afadavits from many of the wives of Joseph stating the nature of their marriages. Unfortunately, my conclusion (whether it is accurate or not) is that it was Joseph that was less than truthful. I can accept that as something that was required at the time however the Church needs to clarify these points. Anyone who makes the claim that all the information is available and if we don't have it, it's because we are lazy or slothful can easily see the falacy of this by the number of posters here that are obviously not slothful that have varied information.

Please cite one statement by Brigham Young regarding Joseph Smith's sex life. In fact cite one statement by Brigham Young relevant to the thread beyond the fact that Joseph Smith taught the principle of eternal marriage and plural marriage.

[dougtheavenger]

It has been asserted that in 1892, in Salt Lake City, Emily Dow Partridge made a deposition in the Temple Lot Case. The Temple Lot Case was a civil action between the LDS and RLDS over a parcel of land on which a temple was to be built. Part of Emily's deposition related to the the purchase or handling of the land and another part related to her marriage to Joseph Smith or perhaps Emily made two depositions. The link is here. I have doubts that her testimony about her marriage to Joseph ever made it into court because it is totally irrelevant to the case. However, it reveals some of the points I have been talking about.

1. Emily contradicts Emma Smith.

2. Emily first names a date for her marriage to Joseph that seems impossible when Joseph Smith's journal is consulted. Emily then backs off of that date and says she was not sure of the date.

3. Emily makes it known that she lived with Joseph and Emma for a time. That was common knowlege.

4. I see no mention of "carnal knowlege" whatever.

http://books.google....rtridge&f=false

So here is the typical mixture of half truth and fiction and dubious testimony. Emily was married to the prophet but is not sure of the date. People allege that she testified of her sex life but I cannot see it in the text. This affidavit comes 48 years after the prophet's death and several years after Brigham Young's death. Is made in Salt Lake City for a court case in Missouri and has no relevence to the case for which it was supposedly made. The portion related to Emily's plural marriage probably never made it into evidence.

Edited July 25, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[dougtheavenger]

Emma even wrote about Josephs' polygamy.

This is a good example of the statements I get when discussing this subject. It is utterly and completely false. The only first hand statements we have from Emma Smith about Joseph Smith and polygamy are denials.

[phaedrus ut]

First, I have doubts about the accuracy of your post. I don't think there were any sworn statements by women claiming to be wives of Joseph Smith and I don't think they made statements about their sex lives under oath. Why would they?

You have doubts about the accuracy of my post? That would be reasonable except I've provided evidence and citation to back up my statements and you've offered nothing but the opinion of Doug. More specifically I've offered you a link to a collection of dozens of legally sworn affidavits Josephs wives, their relatives like Lorenzo Snow about his sister Eliza, and people who attended the ceremonies. These are just a published selection of the more that 100 legal affidavits that Joseph F. Smith collected about his uncle and the total are kept, as again noted in my citations, in the Church Historians Office in Salt Lake.

Todd Compton provides a good summary of the Testimony of Joseph Smith's wives with this quote:

Because of claims by Reorganized Latter-day Saints that Joseph was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Joseph's wives) affirmed repeatedly that Joseph had physical sexual relations with his plural wives-despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American religion which otherwise would have prevented mention of sexual relations in marriage(Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, pg 19)

Second, no woman other than Emma ever claimed to be Joseph Smith's wife while he was alive. So he wasn't there to answer any of these statements, if, indeed they were made. It is customary to hear both sides of the story before passing judgement.

This is absolutely false. We have contemporary evidence of Josephs marriages diaries of the wives and their relatives, letters from the same(including Joseph), marriage records, and the legals affidavits and testimony mentioned.

A third source of legal sworn testimony that should be included in this evidence is the sworn testimony given in the Reed Smoot Case. Specifically the testimony of then President Joseph F. Smith(collector of the above affidavits), LDS Church Historian Andrew Jensen, Apostle James Talmage. and B.H. Roberts.

Third, Emma contradicts some of the claims made; such as, her being present during some marriages and/or knowing about them. Is Emma Smith lying? Her actions shortly before Joseph's death seem consistent with her story.

Emma hated polygamy and this is corroborated by not only her statements and denials but this is confirmed by the above letters, journals, and testimony of the time. Despite trying to hide many of his marriages from her the evidence is clear that Emma also knew of many of Josephs wives. I can only imagine the betrayal and anger Emma must have felt when she found out that Joseph had married her friend Eliza R. Snow behind her back.

Fourth, At this point in history, we cannot question or cross-examine any of the persons regarding the claims they made. Would there stories stand up to other testimonies with regard to place and time?

Your persistent belief that you know 170 year after the fact what few, if any knew at the time is hard for me to understand.

I'm not claiming to know anything. I can only rely on the evidence to form an opinion. The contemporary evidence from the participants is overwhelming. Beyond that we have multiple instances where these individuals went to the lengths to solidify their position by giving legally sworn testimony to these facts.

Phaedrus

Edited July 25, 2012 by phaedrus ut

[phaedrus ut]

It has been asserted that in 1892, in Salt Lake City, Emily Dow Partridge made a deposition in the Temple Lot Case. The Temple Lot Case was a civil action between the LDS and RLDS over a parcel of land on which a temple was to be built. Part of Emily's deposition related to the the purchase or handling of the land and another part related to her marriage to Joseph Smith or perhaps Emily made two depositions. The link is here.

You didn't provide a link to Emily's depositions. Your link is to a partial chapter excerpt on google books of The Rise of Mormonism, 1816-1844 By Michael Marquardt where he mentions the Partridge depositions.

I see no mention of "carnal knowlege" whatever.

... People allege that she testified of her sex life but I cannot see it in the text.

Since you're not reading the testimony your claim to not see anything isn't surprising. Did you see the part where Marquardt mentions Emily's second deposition is more than 40 pages long? Did you read a deposition of Emily Partridge that was more than 40 pages long to form this opinion? Or did you just read the partial excerpt from google books of the Marquardt chapter?

Phaedrus

Edited July 25, 2012 by phaedrus ut