Complete Honesty Versus Protection Of Faith

[CV75]

I know of someone personally, who is all set to leave the church, who has written her resignation letter, whom I've told to come on this board and read, and she did, and still is going forth with it solely on the character of Joseph Smith. What do you say to someone like that? I'm sure it happens often on that one concept.

I would say, "I wish you well" and still be a friend.

[Kenngo1969]

Goat, girl, googoo googles G... g... G...

Oh, sure! You would have to bring up girls! (See the new entry in my signature line ...)

(Just messin' with ya, Cal! )

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

When someone is looking for an excuse, any will do.

[Kenngo1969]

I know of someone personally, who is all set to leave the church, who has written her resignation letter, whom I've told to come on this board and read, and she did, and still is going forth with it solely on the character of Joseph Smith. What do you say to someone like that? I'm sure it happens often on that one concept.

Perhaps she should listen to something such as this:

http://www.amazon.com/THEY-KNEW-THE-PROPHET-Personal/dp/B000R8ZNSY

[DBMormon]

When someone is looking for an excuse, any will do.

This is not true the majority of the time

[Tacenda]

I would say, "I wish you well" and still be a friend.

She lives in the Mormon corridor, her friends and family are LDS, her neighbors are LDS, I believe she'd be better off inactive, I believe some people, not all, shun people like her that resign. I know of someone in my neighborhood who is a member but hasn't stepped foot in the LDS chapel for over 4 years and has been actively going to the K2 evangelical church. But because she's still a member the ward involves her. IMHO I believe people will be more receptive to people that keep their names on the records. I think it's going to create problems if someone resigns because it creates a stigma. Sounds cultish, but people are cruel. Therefore my plea to her not to resign, but we'll see.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Tacenda

[Deborah]

Greg Smith's paper on polygamy is an excellent collection of observations and conclusions about how history or rather the study of history or often lack of it plays into doubts, etc.

This is interesting because I think it goes back to that old adage, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I find out the more I know the fewer questions I have and I think too many people get a glimpse of information taken out of context and then leave it at that, letting it shake their faith. Context and presentation is everything.

[Deborah]

Perhaps she should listen to something such as this:

http://www.amazon.co...l/dp/B000R8ZNSY

It is interesting the contrast between contemporaries of Joseph Smith and modern day critics. I would certainly pay more heed to those who knew him best and were willing to lay down their lives for him.

[wenglund]

Timeout.... you guys too often connect my frustration being expressed in an extreme on this board and want to correlate that to how I handle my real world experiences...... not anywhere near true. Outside of the discussion board I conduct myself absolutely based on my spiritual testimony... On the discussion board I allow my logical understanding and frustrations to play out a little hoping to find better answers on things I can't exactly wrap my head around... The miracle wasn't in how I acted... In that there was never any doubt, the miracle was in Heavenly Father sending someone who as they shared their struggle, anger, frustration; I looked in the mirror and saw myself and he allowed me to perceive that and made it clear the understanding of how I feel at times and How the church must respond to those issues...... It is a work in progress and some of this conflict will continue to play out on my discussion board playground but .... my therapist says I am making progress

Easy, fella. No need to dismiss a genuine expression of appreciation--one that may have rightly considered a different aspect of your experience than you. The Father may be sending to you more than just someone to help. He may also be sending you a couple of someones here to give you help. For your own sake, please don't close your mind to the edifying "truth" and prospect of people reaping what they sow.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 9, 2012 by wenglund

[DBMormon]

Wade, explain what you mean

[wenglund]

I know of someone personally, who is all set to leave the church, who has written her resignation letter, whom I've told to come on this board and read, and she did, and still is going forth with it solely on the character of Joseph Smith. What do you say to someone like that?

I would ask her what God has told her to do, and then ask her what her end objective is and whether her chosen course is best suited for achieving that objective?

Sadly, when people react to things emotionally and without thinking things through they may make decisions that may not be sensible and that may work against their own interest.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

So the question becomes....

What are the best solutions for helping one be able to emotionally back off and see the problem in it's real context?

That would be a very individualistic response. What works for one is likely to trigger more emotion in another.

However, standard therapy generally would have them attempt to verbalize their feelings, perhaps even apart from assigning causes for them. One recognizes that the feelings are real and they need to be dealt with and not ignored or dismissed, but the causes we may be attaching to them may not be valid or even the actual cause. If you can get a person to that stage it may be possible for them to step back and realize the emotion may not be a good measure of the truth value or what is really important to her.

[Calm]

know of someone personally, who is all set to leave the church, who has written her resignation letter, whom I've told to come on this board and read, and she did, and still is going forth with it solely on the character of Joseph Smith. What do you say to someone like that? I'm sure it happens often on that one concept.

Tacenda, That would depend on how open she is to the possibility that her understanding of Joseph Smith is wrong.

As to shunning people who resign. We have two families in our ward who have resigned. They have forbidden all contact with the ward. Their kids play with kids in the neighbourhood at school but as they age, less and less play around the neighbourhood and not due to not being asked. My daughter though older gets along well with those younger than she is and used to go to their house, we would invite them over to ours. We continued to invite to come and play through the years we've been here, but now no one will even give a hi or a thank you when I brought back their new puppy that got out.

I would never assume that a person who says they are being shunned is lying, but I leave open the possibility that the shunning may be more of a result of their own behaviour than the behaviour of the neighbourhood.

Edited July 9, 2012 by calmoriah

[wenglund]

Wade, explain what you mean

What I mean is that, as Dr. Phil says, "Behaviors have consequence....and when we choose the behavior, we choose the consequence." This echoes what is written in D&C 130:20-21 about certain consequences as a result of either obedience or disobedience to laws.

In other words, if someone chooses, whether wittingly of otherwise, to be overly critical and to focus on the bad and what may be wrong and what one may not have, etc., this will impact their inner atmosphere, causing the atmosphere of the soul to be darkened and to be negatively charged, making it vulnerable to depression, hopelessness, low sense of self, anger, and so forth; whereas if someone chooses instead to be grateful and look for the good and what is going right in their life and all of what they have, this will positively orient the soul, inclining it towards an atmosphere of edification, peace, happiness, joy, love, and fulfillment.

In short, if one is feeling distressed and full of negative emotions, it may prove useful for one to introspect as to what they are focusing on (whether the good or the bad, etc.) and consider that they may be reaping what they sow, and if they don't like what they are reaping, to sow differently--sow seeds of gratitude, charity, kindness, mercy, etc. so as to reap edification, joy, and so on.

Does this help?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Kenngo1969]

It is interesting the contrast between contemporaries of Joseph Smith and modern day critics. I would certainly pay more heed to those who knew him best and were willing to lay down their lives for him.

Quite. Perhaps my fourth-great grandfather, a bodyguard to the Prophet, simply was gullible, mentally unbalanced, or not very smart. Perhaps people think the same of me, and now (for them) the mystery is solved as to where I got those traits! As for me, I choose to believe that something different underlay his devotion to the Prophet. I hope, someday, to have what I believe will be a very interesting conversation with him along those lines.

[KevinG]

So at some point we should expect to get the full story in the church and along the way?

None of us will have the full story until we are well into the eternities.

Until then we are working on what God has revealed, our speculations about the rest and faith.

[Kenngo1969]

IMHO I believe people will be more receptive to people that keep their names on the records. I think it's going to create problems if someone resigns because it creates a stigma. Sounds cultish, but people are cruel. Therefore my plea to her not to resign, but we'll see.

It goes without saying that it's easier to fellowship someone (even someone who may have certain misgivings about the Church of Jesus Christ) while his or her name is still on the rolls than after s/he removes it, but stigma doesn't have anything to do with it. It's easier to guage someone's desire for contact when his or her name is still on the rolls, whatever the person's level of involvement in the Church. Once such contact is made, the person can then say, "Sure. Drop by for a visit when you're in the neighborhood," or "Don't call me; I'll call you," or even, "I've been praying you'd come. It's been awhile since I've been to Church, and I've been thinking it's time for that to change ..." While I do believe God is in charge, and that He can inspire a bishop or a home teacher (or anyone He chooses, for that matter) to knock on the door of someone when the ward begins to wonder what became of that person (whether the person's on the rolls or not) there is a reason we're commanded to keep records:

[Moroni 6:4] And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.

Even though God is in charge, and although people should be more than names on a piece of paper, it's still harder for we humans to know someone needs ministering to unless that person's name is on a list somewhere. Although it appears your friend's mind largely is made up, I would do everything I can to convince her to opt for the "Don't call me, I'll call you" option. (And that still goes, even if she decides to join another church. We don't excommunicate people even for joining other churches).

Edited July 9, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, That would depend on how open she is to the possibility that her understanding of Joseph Smith is wrong.

As to shunning people who resign. We have two families in our ward who have resigned. They have forbidden all contact with the ward. Their kids play with kids in the neighbourhood at school but as they age, less and less play around the neighbourhood and not due to not being asked. My daughter though older gets along well with those younger than she is and used to go to their house, we would invite them over to ours. We continued to invite to come and play through the years we've been here, but now no one will even give a hi or a thank you when I brought back their new puppy that got out.

I would never assume that a person who says they are being shunned is lying, but I leave open the possibility that the shunning may be more of a result of their own behaviour than the behaviour of the neighbourhood.

In her mind, Joseph is morally corrupt after she finds out about his polygamy with young girls and other men's wives. Her husband had been a nonbeliever for several years but she never knew, he just hid it, but he doesn't feel the need to resign.

You're probably right about people that leave the church, they might have a huge chip on their shoulders. But can you blame them if they find the church not to be true after having gave 10% of their income faithfully for so many years, or like my mother & father in law, who go to the temple weekly for many, many years and also supported several non family & family on missions etc. What happens to people like that after finding something out that sits wrong? I think I would be close to suicidal, if you want my opinion.

[KevinG]

Is it a Utah thing where you can not attend Church and nobody notices unless you send a letter to the Bishop resigning?

[KevinG]

People shouldn't stop learning when someone presents them with a calumnious charge about the Prophet taken out of context of history and place.

Edited July 9, 2012 by KevinG

[Calm]

In her mind, Joseph is morally corrupt after she finds out about his polygamy with young girls and other men's wives. Her husband had been a nonbeliever for several years but she never knew, he just hid it

Did you pass on the polyandry paper?

Edited July 9, 2012 by calmoriah

[why me]

I know of someone personally, who is all set to leave the church, who has written her resignation letter, whom I've told to come on this board and read, and she did, and still is going forth with it solely on the character of Joseph Smith. What do you say to someone like that? I'm sure it happens often on that one concept.

I would say that she is following in the footsteps of many others who came before her. Many left the fold during the time of Joseph. I believe that in 1832, a few left because they did not consider him acting like a prophet should. And then during the kirkland banking crisis many left too, including many of the apostles. So, she is no different from those people. But here is the thing.

Regardless of his setbacks with people betraying him and leaving because he wrestled with the best of them, or because he laughed or was too jovial or maybe because they saw him get angry and loud, Joseph stuck with it...he continued to the end. Joseph himself claimed that he was not righteous. Ask your friend how she thinks the book of mormon came to be and what does she think of the witnesses to the book of mormon never denying what they saw or felt with their hands and tell, some of these men left too because of joseph but they could not deny their spiritual experience. Can your friend deny her own spiritual experiences? Ask her, please.

[KevinG]

I think she has a bigger problem in her life if she is concerned that was hidden from her...

I have a friend who was an amateur apologist. She posted on Book of Mormon Answer Man and other discussion sites all the time researching and explaining LDS views and doctrines. She would often call upon me to help research topics she was in the middle of discussing with others.

In her personal life things weren't so hot. Her husband was downright lazy and wouldn't help her raise her children. There were health issues and one boy with serious learning and behavioral issues. In short she was alone in raising Saints and very overwhelmed with life.

One day she announced she was leaving the LDS church. I asked her if we could discuss why and she said it was something she discovered that made her decide it wasn't true. Having discussed everything and anything Mormon in the past with her I asked if we could talk about it. She declined. I left the invitation open. To this day we are friendly but her curiosity about the LDS church and willingness to discuss it openly with me has disappeared.

My conclusion is she was tired and didn't want to hear any explanation once she decided she had an excuse to stop struggling. I doubt her story is unique. Which means I doubt most people choose to join or leave the LDS church over historical facts. Even if they do their testimony was based on the wrong things.

[why me]

I would certainly pay more heed to those who knew him best and were willing to lay down their lives for him.

But quite a few who knew him did leave the fold because of him. Their conception of a prophet was not Joseph Smith, a frontiersman, country boy, farmer who was a rough stone rolling.

[why me]

In her mind, Joseph is morally corrupt after she finds out about his polygamy with young girls and other men's wives. Her husband had been a nonbeliever for several years but she never knew, he just hid it, but he doesn't feel the need to resign.

Your poor friend has been reading too many antimormon sites. It happens to the best of us. Strange but these young girls remained faithful throughout their lives and helen mar Kimball wrote a very faith promoting book about it all. These women were no patsies. They all had a head on their shoulders and not one of his wives ever spoke a negative word about Joseph, even after he was murdered. And that says a lot about the character of the man. But for your friend, she only wants to 'feel' the negative that she reads on antimormon sites. Too bad really.