Complete Honesty Versus Protection Of Faith

[DBMormon]

"Somebody is clearly obsessed with polyandry. Again, I think you have found your new religion."

Not at all. just in my mind the clearest example of choosing to hold back information. Regardless of the reason up until a few years ago it was not to be found in the resources of the church. I agree completely reasons for doing such are or can be valid. I have admited several times we each withhold info every day. Anyway, Polyandry is not my religion though neither it beating someone down with my tongue. My favorite topic in the church is the "Doctrine of Christ" and you can see that from this thread

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/57880-doctrine-of-christ/page__hl__%22doctrine+of+christ%22

Anyway, have a great day

[CV75]

when we tell those who have been distracted to just look to Christ, or the BOM, or some other foundational element, we are not helping very much.

Many times the scriptures counsel people to "remember" their own prior experieince and history with the things of faith and to remember the testimonies of others. Of course the scriptures must be read with the right spirit, and when we help others, it must be done with the right spirit also.

[CV75]

Not at all. just in my mind the clearest example of choosing to hold back information.

Who has asked a general authority this question in all sincerity and had an answer withheld? When people come across "disturbing" information on their own, they can often find a resolution on their own. "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" sort of thing.

Edited July 8, 2012 by CV75

[why me]

. When one little thing throws doubt on a testimony, the whole shebang can come crumbling down quite easily.

This is true. And yet, this is a very mormon thing. For example, not many lutherans leave the faith when they find out that luther made quite a few anti-jewish statements. Luther also made a positive statement about polygamy. No one to my knowledge leaves lutheranism because of it. But for the lds church, the testimony can crack under something not very serious. How to explain the psychology of it? And why?

[why me]

Huh? Are you saying it doesn't matter whether Smith was a fallen prophet?

Whitmer considered him a fallen prophet because of polygamy. But was he a fallen prophet? No. David got distracted from his experience with the book of mormon and lost faith in Joseph but not in the book of mormon and his experience with it. Thus, his testimony is on his tombstone.

[why me]

if only the tangible counts, then all you need to do is substitute something you deem tangible for “the Spirit,” and the same principle will hold true.

It seems these days people are big on the tangible. They look for evidence which is tangible. The spirit is not tangible. But the witnesses are very tangible and people can relate to them and question why they never gave up a fraud if it were a fraud. This can be discussed and dissected. It is flesh and bone.

[Libs]

Whitmer considered him a fallen prophet because of polygamy. But was he a fallen prophet? No. David got distracted from his experience with the book of mormon and lost faith in Joseph but not in the book of mormon and his experience with it. Thus, his testimony is on his tombstone.

But, it is possible (as you seem to indicate) to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and still believe that Joseph was a fallen prophet.

[why me]

But, it is possible (as you seem to indicate) to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and still believe that Joseph was a fallen prophet.

I suppose so. But it can be a contradiction. There is no proof that Joseph was a fallen prophet. But what we do have are people getting distracted from the foundation. And these distractions occurred throughout the history of the church. The Kirkland Banking crisis is an example of people losing site of the foundation of the lds church. I see no reason to be distracted by polygamy, MMM, multiple vision accounts etc. Mainly because of the 11 witnesses and emma. Imagine the members who were present when oliver came back and bore his testimony after an absence of years? It must have been powerful. And of course, I can just see members going up to him and asking him questions about this time with Joseph. Was the man such a con that he could fool the membership? I doubt it.

[Jaybear]

Whitmer considered him a fallen prophet because of polygamy. But was he a fallen prophet? No. David got distracted from his experience with the book of mormon and lost faith in Joseph but not in the book of mormon and his experience with it. Thus, his testimony is on his tombstone.

David, who was purportedly chosen by God as a special witness, claims that his experiences which you call distractions include:

in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so it should be done unto them.

I take it, if you were in Whitmer's position, you would have shut your ears to God's word, so as to not distract you from your reverence of Smith emerging revelations.

[DBMormon]

Who has asked a general authority this question in all sincerity and had an answer withheld? When people come across "disturbing" information on their own, they can often find a resolution on their own. "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear" sort of thing.

We are not supposed to contact GA's or write them.

[why me]

I take it, if you were in Whitmer's position, you would have shut your ears to God's word, so as to not distract you from your reverence of Smith emerging revelations.

I have no idea what david heard or what voice spoke to him. But if I were david, I just may ask myself more questions about the voice I heard and why others were not exactly hearing it. The church moved forward with or without david. But at the end, he bore his testimony about the truth claim and died. But I do wonder just what would have been prepared for david if he remained in the church. He would have accomplished great things for others and his name would definitely be more honored than it is today.

[why me]

We are not supposed to contact GA's or write them.

Unless I am wrong, and I may just be wrong, John Dehlin did and look what happened.

[wenglund]

Wade, you are missing the point. It's not that people get hung up with a fascination over the ins and outs of polygamy, etc. For those of us who have a strong testimony, those things really are irrelevant and unimportant. However, for those who have stumbled over these things, their existence calls into doubt the very truthfulness of the church and even the existence of God and Jesus Christ. To tell these people to stop wasting their time and focus on coming closer to Christ is often futile. The doubts that have been raised cause them to doubt whether Christ himself even exists. It's hard to focus on following a message when the validity of the message is in serious doubt.

Actually, I do get this point. I even understand why they may be having those doubt--and this in large part because they are confused as to what Christ and his gospel are all about and how the gospel is intended to work. I am here to help set them straight so they at least have a correct way to return to the faith if they so choose. I do them no favor by simply conceding their doubts and throwing my hands in the air and not challenging the false perceptions and practices that may have led to their doubts.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 8, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

I think that these people lost sight of the ball. The ball is basically this: the book of mormon and the 11 witnesses. And how this book came to be.

I would say that the ball is actually Christ, and the object of the "game" is for us to become like him. The Book of Mormon, the 11 witness, other works of scripture, and so forth, are simply the divinely established means for focusing us on the ball and enabling us to achiev that end.

Other than that, I enthusiastically agree with the remainder of your post.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[why me]

I would say that the ball is actually Christ, and the object of the "game" is for us to become like him. The Book of Mormon, the 11 witness, other works of scripture, and so forth, are simply the divinely established means for focusing us on the ball and enabling us to achiev that end.

Other than that, I enthusiastically agree with the remainder of your post.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I can agree about Christ. But this is often overlooked because it is a given. Many churches have the same claim. But the difference for mormons is the book of mormon and its story of how it came to be. But yes, Christ is also a part of that foundation. One thing that mormons can claim with a straight face is that they do follow jesus and attempt to live the commandments.

[Jaybear]

Actually, I do get this point. I even understand why they may be having those doubt--and this in large part because they are confused as to what Christ and his gospel are all about and how the gospel is intended to work. I am here to help set them straight so they at least have a correct way to return to the faith if they so choose. I do them no favor by simply conceding their doubts and throwing my hands in the air and not challenging the false perceptions and practices that may have led to their doubts.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If a follower of Warren Jeffs began to question Smith marriages to 14 year old girlsand married women, would you offer the same vague advice?

You hit Godwin's Law out of the thread button.

[why me]

If a follower of Warren Jeffs began to question Smith marriages to 14 year old girlsand married women, would you offer the same vague advice?

If a follower of Jesus would question how mary, a possible 14 year girl became pregnant, what should he say?

[Tacenda]

Actually, I do get this point. I even understand why they may be having those doubt--and this in large part because they are confused as to what Christ and his gospel are all about and how the gospel is intended to work. I am here to help set them straight so they at least have a correct way to return to the faith if they so choose. I do them no favor by simply conceding their doubts and throwing my hands in the air and not challenging the false perceptions and practices that may have led to their doubts.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, other faiths keep it all centered on JC also. But in the hereafter is He going to dwell with us in heaven for an eternity as they believe or is He going to prod us to leave Him and the nest to start our own family (world)? You can't have it both ways. This may be why people struggle to know the truth also.

[why me]

Wade, other faiths keep it all centered on JC also. But in the hereafter is He going to dwell with us in heaven for an eternity as they believe or is He going to prod us to leave Him and the nest to start our own family (world)? You can't have it both ways. This may be why people struggle to know the truth also.

Is this what it means to become like god? Maybe not.

[altersteve]

Wade, other faiths keep it all centered on JC also. But in the hereafter is He going to dwell with us in heaven for an eternity as they believe or is He going to prod us to leave Him and the nest to start our own family (world)? You can't have it both ways. This may be why people struggle to know the truth also.

What are you talking about? There is nothing in LDS doctrine which tells us that Jesus is going to "prod us to leave Him" and I know of no Church member who sees it that way. I most certainly don't, at least. And by the way, whoever is in "our own family" is also part of His family, which consists of all those who follow Him. Heavenly Father is over all, and all will be presented to Him -- every single thing we do in His name and for His glory. This includes the possibility of assisting Him in furthering His creation.

Edited July 8, 2012 by altersteve

[ERayR]

I agree with you here. Just trying to make the point that when we tell those who have been distracted to just look to Christ, or the BOM, or some other foundational element, we are not helping very much. When the existence of those foundational elements is thrown into doubt, theY cease providing the guidance needed to stay strong. This is when a true crisis of faith happens. None of us knows for sure (or at least very few of us) that this is true. When one little thing throws doubt on a testimony, the whole shebang can come crumbling down quite easily.

And as long as they choose to cling to their distraction nobody or nothing is going to help. The thing that will help is for them to choose to redirect their attention to those things of importance.

[ERayR]

Huh? Are you saying it doesn't matter whether Smith was a fallen prophet?

If he were it would not negate the restoration of the priesthood, the gospel, the church and the saving ordinances.

[Calm]

I can agree about Christ. But this is often overlooked because it is a given. Many churches have the same claim. But the difference for mormons is the book of mormon and its story of how it came to be. But yes, Christ is also a part of that foundation. One thing that mormons can claim with a straight face is that they do follow jesus and attempt to live the commandments.

How about the ball is Christ and the catcher's mitt is the Book of Mormon, etc....you can even give a label to each part of the mitt to carry the analogy about as far as it can go...oh, what can we come up with for the bat that is trying to keep us from catching....hmmm....nothing is coming to mind for some reason.....

[ERayR]

Wade, other faiths keep it all centered on JC also. But in the hereafter is He going to dwell with us in heaven for an eternity as they believe or is He going to prod us to leave Him and the nest to start our own family (world)? You can't have it both ways. This may be why people struggle to know the truth also.

Who says you can't have it both ways? In the Celestial Kingdom all things are in the presence of God and Christ.

[Calm]

Wade, other faiths keep it all centered on JC also. But in the hereafter is He going to dwell with us in heaven for an eternity as they believe or is He going to prod us to leave Him and the nest to start our own family (world)? You can't have it both ways. This may be why people struggle to know the truth also.

That is absurd, of course you can have it both ways when it comes to infinite beings with infinite capacities. Not only are you thinking in terms of mortal men with their limitations, but you are thinking of modern men who when they become adults most often take off and leave home.

Well, my son and his wife have taken turns living with us and her parents who are just a block away from us as well as having a home of their own, again practically within shouting distance. In other times, sons built their homes on the land of their fathers when it came time for them to start their own families. If they can manage it well enough here, I am certain when we become one with the Father and Son in mind and heart, in purpose and desire, then while other more limited beings might perceive a separation (and they might even not), there will not in any essential way be one.

The Father and Christ seem to be managing this world just find without hovering over it, I am not sure why you think even if one applies the same rules of physicality and location to eternal, infinite beings as mortal, finite ones (which is very problematic that anyone has to depart from the Presence of God in order to create.

Not to be attacking you in any way, but after you have described a number of your issues with LDS doctrine, it seems like a major problem is that you are visualizing the afterlife as more or less identical in how it functions to mortality....and I think this is a huge mistake. Even if all one does is remove the limitations of mortality, there is a huge variation in possibilities.

And if one is concerned about what life is going to be like and that is the only real issue one has with the doctrine of a faith, then it seems that if the faith in the here and now is working for you and seems to be the best one out there for mortal life, why be concerned about what is going to happen in the next life as far as details go? Why not just reassure in the promise of the Lord that we will be one with him and His Father? What more could we want? And if he desires to give us more, then rejoice, don't worry now that you may not like his gifts because of what some people have speculated they might contain.

Edited July 8, 2012 by calmoriah