Libs Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 There were more than a couple of anecdotal references; as I said there were numerous pages over a couple of weeks on this.How many? Numerous pages are often discussions between the same few people who get involved in the thread. That's been my observation, anyway.I think if someone decides to leave the church and then spends enormous amounts of time researching its history, it's not because they are finally actually interested in the history.Not sure what you mean. I started reading more about the history after I discovered a few key things. I struggled to stay in the Church. I was in and out over a period of four years. Frankly, it was hell.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Everything we believe in this church rests on the premise of one day achieving Godhood. But for me I'll be happy as an angel, for you it's the Celestial Kingdom I'm sure. I use to aspire to that level but not since learning and reading what that means.It is an insult when people believe that the only reason we are Mormons is to be "god's" or that we believe that only we will be such...I want my family and to see my God...nothing more. Also why do you say "for you it is the CK". Anyone who serves God in an effort to "exault" themselves instead of God, never will.
Libs Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) The way you presented is that it was abnormal, insinuating that it was somehow very bad. Average tells us nothing. The average age of Josephs wives when married to him was just over 29 years of age. If we are going by average for marriage about 22 years of age Joseph's wives were older than "normal".Now that we have the statistics out of the way we are still left with it was not abnormal for girls to marry at age 15+ especially in frontier America. Josephs marriages to the younger ones was arranged through and approved by parents. Now I know that doesn't give you much comfort but if you will stop for a moment and put aside the polygamy issues there was nothing out of the ordinary with any of the marriages. What is not "normal"/ordinary is they were polygamous unions. Now if you will table for a minute all of the 20 - 21 century biases and emotion about how evil polygamy is perhaps you could come away with a different picture.That's fine, Ray. Joseph Smith's polygamy was a huge issue, for me, when I was first exposed, and partially because it came from critics, who put the worst possible spin on it. If I were to consider, only this issue, at this point...it would be a non-issue, because I have read enough about it to understand that there are several possible ways to view it. That's exactly why I believe it may have helped, to hear this first from the Church. Edited July 7, 2012 by Libs
ERayR Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 All I'm saying is, it is not true that I was "looking for an excuse to leave". That was not at all in my mind, not even after I found out about Joseph's polygamy. That was not the straw that broke the camel's back. It was actually the Book of Abraham...my leaving was a sort of cumulative effect of many things that I hadn't known about. I thought I had the truth, but some of the things I was exposed to, caused me to doubt. It's really that simple.The LDS apologists are arguing that ad hom arguments are sometimes relevant to making a judgment about something. I happen to agree with that. That principle applies to Joseph Smith and the Church. His character, the kind of person he was, is relevant to the truth claims he made, in regards to everything in Mormonism. That is not looking for an "excuse", but a legitimate concern, when looking into the truth claims of the Church.You were not looking for an excuse and polygamy was not enough to do it so you went and found the Book of Abraham?
Tacenda Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I know anyone can and do just find this stuff on the internet, but I put it here because it meant something once. If I don't believe Brigham Young anymore, is it to mean that our current prophet is not always correct during his tenure also? And if so, we're back to square one! It's either true or not true, and people want the truth, not vague answers like right now it's not important. POLYGAMYMen who become sons of God MUST enter into polygamy I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the [p.269] blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc," - the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. - JoD 11:268-269 (Aug 9, 1866)Give up polygamy and the Devil will rejoice We are told that if we would give up polygamy - which we know to be a doctrine revealed from heaven, and it is God and the world for it - but suppose this Church should give up this holy order of marriage, then would the devil, and all who are in league with him against the cause of God, rejoice that they had prevailed upon the Saints to refuse to obey one of the revelations and commandments of God to them. - JoD 11:239 (June 3, 1866) Give up polygamy and you will be damned Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned. - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)The present President and Prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, appears to disagree with Brigham Young. Hinckley has stated in public interviews that polygamy is not "doctrinal." (Interview with Larry King in 1998). Polygamy is essential to Mormonism To return to our starting point, the great question of what Congress demands. We have shown that in requiring the relinquishment of polygamy, they ask the renunciation of the entire faith of this people. No sophistry can get out of this. "Mormonism" is true in every leading doctrine, or it is false as a system altogether. The question for the wise heads of the nation will be, whether Government can constitutionally enforce a law which makes such a demand upon a people. Conclude how they will, before this people will renounce the glorious hopes their faith inspires, before they will renounce that faith for which they have given up home, father, mother, and broken asunder the dearest ties, or before they will put the brand of infamy upon the brows of their own children, or write "house of ill fame" with their own hands upon their Territorial doors, they will await the "extermination" to which they are invited. There is no half way house. The childish babble about another revelation is only an evidence of how half informed men can talk. The "Mormons" have either to spurn their religion and their God, and sink self-damned in the eyes of all civilization at the moment when most blest in the practice of their faith or go calmly on to the same issue which they have always had - "Mormonism" in the entirety the revelation of God, or nothing at all. - Millennial Star 27:675-676 (1865) THE POSITION OF WOMENNow for my proposition; it is more particularly for my sisters, as it is frequently happening that women say they are unhappy. Men will say, "My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife;" "No, not a happy day for a year," says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears, because of the conduct of some men, together with their own folly. I wish my own women to understand that what I am going to say is for them as well as others, and I want those who are here to tell their sisters, yes, all the women of this community, and then write it back to the States, and do as you please with it. I am going to give you from this time to the 6th day of October next, for reflection, that you may determine whether you wish to stay with your husbands or not, and then I am going to set every woman at liberty and say to them, Now go your way, my women with the rest, go your way. And my wives have got to do one of two things; either round up their shoulders to endure the afflictions of this world, and live their religion, or they may leave, for I will not have them about me. I will go into heaven alone, rather than have scratching and fighting around me. I will set all at liberty. "What, first wife too?" Yes, I will liberate you all. I know what my women will say; they will say, "You can have as many women as you please, Brigham." But I want to go somewhere and do something to get rid of the whiners; I do not want. them to receive a part of the truth and spurn the rest out of doors. I wish my women, and brother Kimball's and brother Grant's to leave, and every woman in this Territory, or else say in their hearts that they will embrace the Gospel - the whole of it. Tell the Gentiles that I will free every woman in this Territory at our next Conference. "What, the first wife too?" Yes, there shall not be one held in bondage, all shall be set free. And then let the father be the head of the family, the master of his own household; and let him treat them as an angel would treat them; and let the wives and the children say amen to what he says, and be subject to his dictates, instead of their dictating the man, instead of their trying to govern him. No doubt some are thinking, "I wish brother Brigham would say what would become of the children." I will tell you what my feelings are; I will let my wives take the children, and I have property enough to support them, and can educate them, and then give them a good fortune, and I can take a fresh start. I do not desire to keep a particle of my property, except enough to protect me from a state of nudity. And [p.56] I would say, wives you are welcome to the children, only do not teach them iniquity; for if you do, I will send an Elder, or come myself, to teach them the Gospel. You teach them life and salvation, or I will send Elders to instruct them. Let every man thus treat his wives, keeping raiment enough to clothe his body; and say to your wives, "Take all that I have and be set at liberty; but if you stay with me you shall comply with the law of God, and that too without any murmuring and whining. You must fulfil the law of God in every respect, and round up your shoulders to walk up to the mark without any grunting." Now recollect that two weeks from to morrow I am going to set you at liberty. But the first wife will say, "It is hard, for I have lived with my husband twenty years, or thirty, and have raised a family of children for him, and it is a great trial to me for him to have more women;" then I say it is time that you gave him up to other women who will bear children. If my wife had borne me all the children that she ever would bare, the celestial law would teach me to take young women that would have children. Do you understand this? I have told you many times that there are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty? - to prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can; hence if my women leave, I will go and search up others who will abide the celestial law, and let all I now have go where they please; though I will send the Gospel to them. This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth. ... Sisters, I am not joking, I do not throw out my proposition to banter your feelings, to see whether you will leave your husbands, all or any of you. But I do know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this Territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. And if the women will turn from the commandments of God and continue to despise the order of heaven, I will pray that the curse of the Almighty may be close to their heels, and that it may be following them all the day long. And those that enter into it and are faithful, I will promise them [p.57] that they shall be queens in heaven, and rulers to all eternity. "But," says one, "I want to have my paradise now." And says another, "I did think I should be in paradise if I was sealed to brother Brigham, and I thought I should be happy when I became his wife, or brother Heber's. I loved you so much, that I thought I was going to have a heaven right off, right here on the spot. What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here - [laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then. But now we have got to fight the good fight of faith, sword in hand, as much so as men have when they go to battle; and it is one continual warfare from morning to evening, with sword in hand. This is my duty, and this is my life. But the women come and say, "Really brother John, and brother William, I thought you were going to make a heaven for me," and they get into trouble because a heaven is not made for them by the men, even though agency is upon women as well as upon men. True there is a curse upon the woman that is not upon the man, namely, that "her whole affections shall be towards her husband," and what is the next? "He shall rule over you." But how is it now? Your desire is to your husband, but you strive to rule over him, whereas the man should rule over you. Some may ask whether that is the case with me; go to my house and live, and then you will learn that I am very kind, but know how to rule. If I had only wise men to talk to, there would be no necessity for my saying what I am going to say. Many and many an Elder knows no better than to go home and abuse as good a woman as dwells upon this earth, because of what I have said this afternoon. Are you, who act in that way, fit to have a family? No, you are not, and never will be, until you get good common sense. Then you can go to work and magnify your callings; and you can do the best you know how; and on that ground I will promise you salvation, but upon no other principle. If I were talking to a people that understood themselves and the doctrine of the holy Gospel, there would be no necessity for saying this, because you would understand. But many have been (what shall I say? pardon me, brethren,) hen pecked so much, that they do not know the place of either man or woman; they abuse and rule a good woman with an iron hand. With them it is as Solomen said "Bray a feel in a mortar among wheat, with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him." You may talk to them about their duties, about what is required of them, and still they are fools, and will continue to be. Prepare yourselves for two weeks from to morrow; and I will tell you now, that if you will tarry with your husbands, after I have set you free, you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that I will not hear any more of this whining. - JoD 4:55-57 (September 21, 1856) Women may leave a husband to marry a man higher in authority "But there was a way in which a woman could leave a man lawfully--when a woman becomes alienated in her feelings and affections from her husband, it is his duty to give her a bill and set her free--it would be fornication for a man to cohabit with his wife after she had thus become alienated from him. . . . Also, there was another way in which a woman could leave a man-- if the woman preferred a man higher in authority and he is willing to take her and her husband gives her up. There is no bill of divorce required, in [this] case it is right in the sight of God." - Conference Reports, 8 Oct. 1861, reported by George D. Watt, LDS archives; also found in the journal of James Beck, 8 Oct. 1861, LDS archives, as cited in Campbell and Campbell, New Mormon History, ed. Quinn, p 195 n 45
Calm Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Some time ago I started a thread asking the question would it have made a difference in your leaving the church if you had found out all the "secrets" the church has supposedly been hiding sooner rather than later. After pages and pages of discussion the conclusion was that the same people who left late in life would have left early if they had known some of these things sooner. As one facetiously said but he could have been having a good time sooner.The conclusion I came to is it's not the history that turns people off it's the excuse for leaving.I am not sure one can say that if it was merely the fact they learned about the history sooner and from the Church that would have (hypothetically...who can really know) triggered their leaving. All it means is they believe the same things would have bothered them. If they had claimed at first the reason they had left was solely that the Church was in their view hiding this info from them...yeah, then it looks like maybe they need to reexamine their reasoning for accuracy
Calm Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) It's the details that are difficult to understand, like the ages of some of the "girls" (and no, that was not a normal marrying age for that time, as some try to say)It wasn't common, but it was in the norm meaning the statistically significant "normal" range of marriages at the time. IOW, it didn't happen enough to be seen as that exceptional even if it wasn't common (think of genius level, being a genius isn't normal, but unless one is on the high side, it isn't all that exceptional statistically speaking).It seems, in the beginning, there was some kind of misunderstanding that all of the families who would go to the CK, needed to be sealed to the prophet....or something like that? I don't know if it was a misunderstanding or simply a desire to be part of an extended celestial family in such a way, an understanding that we have nowadays even though we seal to individual lines, but sealings may not have been seen this way originally and so such closeness was instead made formal through a formal connection. Edited July 7, 2012 by calmoriah
ERayR Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I know anyone can and do just find this stuff on the internet, but I put it here because it meant something once. If I don't believe Brigham Young anymore, is it to mean that our current prophet is not always correct during his tenure also? And if so, we're back to square one! It's either true or not true, and people want the truth, not vague answers like right now it's not important. POLYGAMYMen who become sons of God MUST enter into polygamy I wish here to say to the Elders of Israel, and to all the members of this Church and kingdom, that it is in the hearts of many of them to wish that the doctrine of polygamy was not taught and practiced by us. It may be hard for many, and especially for the ladies, yet it is no harder for them than it is for the gentlemen. It is the word of the Lord, and I wish to say to you, and all the world, that if you desire with all your hearts to obtain the [p.269] blessings which Abraham obtained, you will be polygamists at least in your faith, or you will come short of enjoying the salvation and the glory which Abraham has obtained. This is as true as that God lives. You who wish that there were no such thing in existence, if you have in your hearts to say: "We will pass along in the Church without obeying or submitting to it in our faith or believing this order, because, for aught that we know, this community may be broken up yet, and we may have lucrative offices offered to us; we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc," - the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. - JoD 11:268-269 (Aug 9, 1866)Give up polygamy and the Devil will rejoice We are told that if we would give up polygamy - which we know to be a doctrine revealed from heaven, and it is God and the world for it - but suppose this Church should give up this holy order of marriage, then would the devil, and all who are in league with him against the cause of God, rejoice that they had prevailed upon the Saints to refuse to obey one of the revelations and commandments of God to them. - JoD 11:239 (June 3, 1866) Give up polygamy and you will be damned Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned. - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)The present President and Prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, appears to disagree with Brigham Young. Hinckley has stated in public interviews that polygamy is not "doctrinal." (Interview with Larry King in 1998). Polygamy is essential to Mormonism To return to our starting point, the great question of what Congress demands. We have shown that in requiring the relinquishment of polygamy, they ask the renunciation of the entire faith of this people. No sophistry can get out of this. "Mormonism" is true in every leading doctrine, or it is false as a system altogether. The question for the wise heads of the nation will be, whether Government can constitutionally enforce a law which makes such a demand upon a people. Conclude how they will, before this people will renounce the glorious hopes their faith inspires, before they will renounce that faith for which they have given up home, father, mother, and broken asunder the dearest ties, or before they will put the brand of infamy upon the brows of their own children, or write "house of ill fame" with their own hands upon their Territorial doors, they will await the "extermination" to which they are invited. There is no half way house. The childish babble about another revelation is only an evidence of how half informed men can talk. The "Mormons" have either to spurn their religion and their God, and sink self-damned in the eyes of all civilization at the moment when most blest in the practice of their faith or go calmly on to the same issue which they have always had - "Mormonism" in the entirety the revelation of God, or nothing at all. - Millennial Star 27:675-676 (1865) THE POSITION OF WOMENNow for my proposition; it is more particularly for my sisters, as it is frequently happening that women say they are unhappy. Men will say, "My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife;" "No, not a happy day for a year," says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears, because of the conduct of some men, together with their own folly. I wish my own women to understand that what I am going to say is for them as well as others, and I want those who are here to tell their sisters, yes, all the women of this community, and then write it back to the States, and do as you please with it. I am going to give you from this time to the 6th day of October next, for reflection, that you may determine whether you wish to stay with your husbands or not, and then I am going to set every woman at liberty and say to them, Now go your way, my women with the rest, go your way. And my wives have got to do one of two things; either round up their shoulders to endure the afflictions of this world, and live their religion, or they may leave, for I will not have them about me. I will go into heaven alone, rather than have scratching and fighting around me. I will set all at liberty. "What, first wife too?" Yes, I will liberate you all. I know what my women will say; they will say, "You can have as many women as you please, Brigham." But I want to go somewhere and do something to get rid of the whiners; I do not want. them to receive a part of the truth and spurn the rest out of doors. I wish my women, and brother Kimball's and brother Grant's to leave, and every woman in this Territory, or else say in their hearts that they will embrace the Gospel - the whole of it. Tell the Gentiles that I will free every woman in this Territory at our next Conference. "What, the first wife too?" Yes, there shall not be one held in bondage, all shall be set free. And then let the father be the head of the family, the master of his own household; and let him treat them as an angel would treat them; and let the wives and the children say amen to what he says, and be subject to his dictates, instead of their dictating the man, instead of their trying to govern him. No doubt some are thinking, "I wish brother Brigham would say what would become of the children." I will tell you what my feelings are; I will let my wives take the children, and I have property enough to support them, and can educate them, and then give them a good fortune, and I can take a fresh start. I do not desire to keep a particle of my property, except enough to protect me from a state of nudity. And [p.56] I would say, wives you are welcome to the children, only do not teach them iniquity; for if you do, I will send an Elder, or come myself, to teach them the Gospel. You teach them life and salvation, or I will send Elders to instruct them. Let every man thus treat his wives, keeping raiment enough to clothe his body; and say to your wives, "Take all that I have and be set at liberty; but if you stay with me you shall comply with the law of God, and that too without any murmuring and whining. You must fulfil the law of God in every respect, and round up your shoulders to walk up to the mark without any grunting." Now recollect that two weeks from to morrow I am going to set you at liberty. But the first wife will say, "It is hard, for I have lived with my husband twenty years, or thirty, and have raised a family of children for him, and it is a great trial to me for him to have more women;" then I say it is time that you gave him up to other women who will bear children. If my wife had borne me all the children that she ever would bare, the celestial law would teach me to take young women that would have children. Do you understand this? I have told you many times that there are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles, now what is our duty? - to prepare tabernacles for them; to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness, debauchery, and every species of crime. It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can; hence if my women leave, I will go and search up others who will abide the celestial law, and let all I now have go where they please; though I will send the Gospel to them. This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth. ... Sisters, I am not joking, I do not throw out my proposition to banter your feelings, to see whether you will leave your husbands, all or any of you. But I do know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this Territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. And if the women will turn from the commandments of God and continue to despise the order of heaven, I will pray that the curse of the Almighty may be close to their heels, and that it may be following them all the day long. And those that enter into it and are faithful, I will promise them [p.57] that they shall be queens in heaven, and rulers to all eternity. "But," says one, "I want to have my paradise now." And says another, "I did think I should be in paradise if I was sealed to brother Brigham, and I thought I should be happy when I became his wife, or brother Heber's. I loved you so much, that I thought I was going to have a heaven right off, right here on the spot. What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here - [laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then. But now we have got to fight the good fight of faith, sword in hand, as much so as men have when they go to battle; and it is one continual warfare from morning to evening, with sword in hand. This is my duty, and this is my life. But the women come and say, "Really brother John, and brother William, I thought you were going to make a heaven for me," and they get into trouble because a heaven is not made for them by the men, even though agency is upon women as well as upon men. True there is a curse upon the woman that is not upon the man, namely, that "her whole affections shall be towards her husband," and what is the next? "He shall rule over you." But how is it now? Your desire is to your husband, but you strive to rule over him, whereas the man should rule over you. Some may ask whether that is the case with me; go to my house and live, and then you will learn that I am very kind, but know how to rule. If I had only wise men to talk to, there would be no necessity for my saying what I am going to say. Many and many an Elder knows no better than to go home and abuse as good a woman as dwells upon this earth, because of what I have said this afternoon. Are you, who act in that way, fit to have a family? No, you are not, and never will be, until you get good common sense. Then you can go to work and magnify your callings; and you can do the best you know how; and on that ground I will promise you salvation, but upon no other principle. If I were talking to a people that understood themselves and the doctrine of the holy Gospel, there would be no necessity for saying this, because you would understand. But many have been (what shall I say? pardon me, brethren,) hen pecked so much, that they do not know the place of either man or woman; they abuse and rule a good woman with an iron hand. With them it is as Solomen said "Bray a feel in a mortar among wheat, with a pestle, yet will not his foolishness depart from him." You may talk to them about their duties, about what is required of them, and still they are fools, and will continue to be. Prepare yourselves for two weeks from to morrow; and I will tell you now, that if you will tarry with your husbands, after I have set you free, you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that I will not hear any more of this whining. - JoD 4:55-57 (September 21, 1856) Women may leave a husband to marry a man higher in authority "But there was a way in which a woman could leave a man lawfully--when a woman becomes alienated in her feelings and affections from her husband, it is his duty to give her a bill and set her free--it would be fornication for a man to cohabit with his wife after she had thus become alienated from him. . . . Also, there was another way in which a woman could leave a man-- if the woman preferred a man higher in authority and he is willing to take her and her husband gives her up. There is no bill of divorce required, in [this] case it is right in the sight of God." - Conference Reports, 8 Oct. 1861, reported by George D. Watt, LDS archives; also found in the journal of James Beck, 8 Oct. 1861, LDS archives, as cited in Campbell and Campbell, New Mormon History, ed. Quinn, p 195 n 45 Again not that I agree or disagree with anything you have posted. What I wish to comment on is that you are again looking at this from the comfort of your easy chair with your 20-21 century biases. Before you go any further in trying to understand this get an idea of how they lived and how they thought. Firsthand journals are very good.
Calm Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think if someone decides to leave the church and then spends enormous amounts of time researching its history, it's not because they are finally actually interested in the history.The question is which came first....
Calm Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) And yet we have this when marrying is discussed in the 1830's and 40's:It was the norm for women to get married in their early teens as soon as they reached puberty.When a woman reached 16 she was an old maid past marrying age. The average life expectancy for women was around their 20's and for the men not much better. http://answers.yahoo...16114431AA0AqH0I think one needs a better source then an anonymous one that doesn't refer to where he got the info....Here's one: As Thomas Hine, a non-LDS scholar of adolescence noted: Until the twentieth century, adult expectations of young people were determined not by age but by size. If a fourteen-year-old looked big and strong enough to do a man's work on a farm or in a factory or mine, most people viewed him as a man. And if a sixteen-year-old was slower to develop and couldn't perform as a man, he wasn't one. For, young women, the issue was much the same. To be marriageable was the same as being read for motherhood, which was determined by physical development, not age....http://en.fairmormon...ok/Age_of_wivesHas some great data on age difference as well.Helen Mar Kimball, btw, stated she looked old for her age when she used to drive around with her father in a carriage. Edited July 7, 2012 by calmoriah
Tacenda Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Again not that I agree or disagree with anything you have posted. What I wish to comment on is that you are again looking at this from the comfort of your easy chair with your 20-21 century biases. Before you go any further in trying to understand this get an idea of how they lived and how they thought. Firsthand journals are very good.I'm not calling anyone out, but will someone please tell me, is it a belief that we are to get our own planet or not? If our church is offering so much more than other churches why on earth be vague about it? I recently sat in GD class where a sub was teaching and he even mentioned that we are to be Gods. Maybe it wasn't appropiate because I haven't heard it stated that way before in a regular sunday school class. Of course the majority of my callings have been in the primary.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I'm not calling anyone out, but will someone please tell me, is it a belief that we are to get our own planet or not? If our church is offering so much more than other churches why on earth be vague about it? I recently sat in GD class where a sub was teaching and he even mentioned that we are to be Gods. Maybe it wasn't appropiate because I haven't heard it stated that way before in a regular sunday school class. Of course the majority of my callings have been in the primary.I think there is good reason why KFD is not part of D&C.
ERayR Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I'm not calling anyone out, but will someone please tell me, is it a belief that we are to get our own planet or not? If our church is offering so much more than other churches why on earth be vague about it? I recently sat in GD class where a sub was teaching and he even mentioned that we are to be Gods. Maybe it wasn't appropiate because I haven't heard it stated that way before in a regular sunday school class. Of course the majority of my callings have been in the primary.Te doctrine is that we are to be joint heirs with Christ for all that the Father Hath. Romans 8:17 - And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.From this and a few other scriptures theologians of all denominations have speculated on what the heavenly reward will be like. LDS have been no different. The difference is that critics and ant-Mormons have sensationalized it and exagerated the importance of these musings. Here is a link that will help you understand LDS beliefs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_%28Mormonism%29 2
Calm Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 I'm not calling anyone out, but will someone please tell me, is it a belief that we are to get our own planet or not? If our church is offering so much more than other churches why on earth be vague about it? I recently sat in GD class where a sub was teaching and he even mentioned that we are to be Gods.It is certainly a belief that many have. It is an interesting idea to think about, to even plan for some and I suspect youth talk about it much, much more than adults who have their lives right now they don't really feel the need to invest in dreaming of "some day in my next life I will be....".It is not, however, doctrinal. It is what came up when people started thinking about the implications of what is doctrinal, imo.This is what is doctrinal:http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=engWhen we lived with our Heavenly Father, He explained a plan for our progression. We could become like Him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from Him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father’s commandments even though we were no longer in His presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience.From the scriptures we learn that there are three kingdoms of glory in heaven. The Apostle Paul mentioned that he knew a man who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul named two of the kingdoms in heaven: the celestial and the terrestrial (see1 Corinthians 15:40–42). The celestial is the highest, and the terrestrial is second. Through latter-day revelation we learn that the third kingdom is the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:81). We also learn that there are three heavens or degrees within the celestial kingdom (see D&C 131:1). Exaltation• What is exaltation?Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children (see D&C 14:7). Blessings of Exaltation• What are some blessings that will be given to those who are exalted?Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).3. They will be united eternally with their righteous familymembers and will be able to have eternal increase.4. They will receive a fulness of joy.5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original). Requirements for ExaltationThe time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32–34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and the understanding of the truth; and ‘live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God’” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:1. We must be baptized.2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.4. We must receive the temple endowment.5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:1. Love God and our neighbors.2. Keep the commandments.3. Repent of our wrongdoings.4. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.5. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.6. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.7. Have family and individual prayers every day.8. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.9. Study the scriptures.10. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.• How do ordinances and covenants prepare us for exaltation?• How does faith in Jesus Christ help us obey the commandments?• Why must we learn to follow the direction of the Holy Ghost to become exalted? After We Have Been Faithful and Endured to the End• What happens when we have endured to the end in faithful discipleship to Christ?The Lord has said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “If we will continue in God; that is, keep his commandments, worship him and live his truth; then the time will come when we shall be bathed in the fulness of truth, which shall grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God. … He was once a man like us; … God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 345–46).Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as He did.Imagine what joy each of us will have when we return to our Heavenly Father if we can say: “Father, I lived according to Thy will. I have been faithful and have kept Thy commandments. I am happy to be home again.” Then we will hear Him say, “Well done … ; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord” (Matthew 25:23).• Review Matthew 25:23. Think about how you would feel if you heard the Lord say these words to you.For teachers: When you give class members or family members time to ponder gospel truths, reflect on their lives, or think about their love for Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, you give them an opportunity to be taught by the Holy Ghost. Additional Scriptures• D&C 132:3–4, 16–26, 37 (pertaining to exaltation)• D&C 131:1–4 (eternal marriage is key to exaltation)• D&C 76:59–70 (blessings of celestial glory explained)• D&C 84:20–21 (the power of godliness is manifest through priesthood ordinances)So yes, whatever it means we will become gods. Does this mean we will create worlds like God did and call it our own? I don't know, I think it is more likely we will be subordinate to the Father, but my own earthly father is perfectly happy with me going off and doing my own thing and claiming it for my own so perhaps this is also what will happen in the next life. I don't think it really matters if God is already sharing with us all that he has, what more could we want than that, what more is there...but bottomline is we don't know specific actions and events of exaltation because that part of the scenario hasn't been revealed yet. We just know who we will be with (God and his family) and why (because he loves us and wants to give us all). </ul> 2
Deborah Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 The question is which came first....For me the question is what was the testimony built on to begin with that reading something can negate all the good things one once "knew" were true. 1
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Te doctrine is that we are to be joint heirs with Christ for all that the Father Hath. Romans 8:17 - And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.From this and a few other scriptures theologians of all denominations have speculated on what the heavenly reward will be like. LDS have been no different. The difference is that critics and ant-Mormons have sensationalized it and exagerated the importance of these musings. Here is a link that will help you understand LDS beliefs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_%28Mormonism%29 I clicked on it and the very last sentence was the answer to my question. Edited July 8, 2012 by Tacenda
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) It is certainly a belief that many have. It is an interesting idea to think about, to even plan for some and I suspect youth talk about it much, much more than adults who have their lives right now they don't really feel the need to invest in dreaming of "some day in my next life I will be....".It is not, however, doctrinal. It is what came up when people started thinking about the implications of what is doctrinal, imo.This is what is doctrinal:http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=engSo yes, whatever it means we will become gods. Does this mean we will create worlds like God did and call it our own? I don't know, I think it is more likely we will be subordinate to the Father, but my own earthly father is perfectly happy with me going off and doing my own thing and claiming it for my own so perhaps this is also what will happen in the next life. I don't think it really matters if God is already sharing with us all that he has, what more could we want than that, what more is there...but bottomline is we don't know specific actions and events of exaltation because that part of the scenario hasn't been revealed yet. We just know who we will be with (God and his family) and why (because he loves us and wants to give us all). </ul> Hey you proved that it is taught in church! And you answered, quite honestly, my question, thank you, and to some of you, be nice to me when I'm an angel and in your service! Edited July 8, 2012 by Tacenda
ERayR Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) I clicked on it and the very last sentence was the answer to my question.Did you notice that it says "Latter Day Saints posit..." To posit is to assume. Also it would be more accurate to say some Latter Day Saints posit Edited July 8, 2012 by ERayR
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 Did you notice that it says "Latter Day Saints posit..." To posit is to assume. Also it would be more accurate to say some Latter Day Saints posit No, I didn't even see the word "posit" anywhere.
Calm Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Hey you proved that it is taught in church! And you answered, quite honestly, my question, thank you, and to some of you, be nice to me when I'm an angel and in your service!Yes it is, not very often as the book is typically used for the first year of membership for converts and/or investigators. However, my experience is that teaching that we can become one with God occurs much, much more often as well as the idea of living with him and our families forever so I think that is a good demonstration of what is considered most important to us about our eventual destination or state of being.Here are the searches for the term "become gods" in the manuals: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=site:lds.org/manual+%22become+gods%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8Here are the searches for "become like God" in the manuals: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=site:lds.org/manual+%22become+like+God%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8Here are the searches for "live with God" in the manuals: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=site:lds.org/manual+%22live+with+God%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8Notice the difference in numbers. 1:3:100+. Edited July 8, 2012 by calmoriah
Calm Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 No, I didn't even see the word "posit" anywhere.Latter-day Saints posit that not only does God have the power to exalt mortal man, but without the possibility, there is little reason for mortality.
Thinking Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 Being honest is not the same thing as dumping everything you know on a person at once. If you're teaching math to first graders, it's not dishonest of you to teach basic addition and withhold information about trigonometry. That's the "milk before meat" principle. However, you don't want to keep teaching basic math forever, once the students have learned it. Eventually you want to progress to trigonometry, calculus, etc.If we are going to use this analogy, we need to expand it and compare, for example, the AP Calculus exam to the endowment. Certainly the teacher would be expected to teach calculus to the students before they took the exam. I would consider the endowment to be a meaty covenant. The belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet is essential to an LDS testimony. Shouldn't the doctrines that he taught and the practices that he introduced be laid out so the member can really know? In other words, the meaty doctrine should precede the meaty covenants.
ERayR Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) No, I didn't even see the word "posit" anywhere.Last paragraph just above the see also.Shame on you. You should read it all for comprehension else you skip over as you have done and come away with the wrong idea. Edited July 8, 2012 by ERayR
Calm Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 AP Calculus exam to the endowment.According to Joseph Smith, the endowment is more like Junior High Math...Higher Math is going to be something we get in the next life....When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
ERayR Posted July 8, 2012 Posted July 8, 2012 If we are going to use this analogy, we need to expand it and compare, for example, the AP Calculus exam to the endowment. Certainly the teacher would be expected to teach calculus to the students before they took the exam. I would consider the endowment to be a meaty covenant. The belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet is essential to an LDS testimony. Shouldn't the doctrines that he taught and the practices that he introduced be laid out so the member can really know? In other words, the meaty doctrine should precede the meaty covenants.You are mistaking the temple ceremony contains only the covenant. All endowmwnt sessions include meaty instruction pertaining to the covenant then the covenant.
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