Complete Honesty Versus Protection Of Faith

[wenglund]

So she can't be a believer of Christ and follow His gospel without the church?

She can't truly believe in Christ if she believes more in herself. And, she can't rightly follow Christ's gospel by following herself and her own private gospel. The way of Christ is through him, not her. She is the way to herself and the best she has to offer herself. If that is fine with her, then have at it. But, if she wishes to become like Christ, she needs to be centered on Christ and follow him as he has revealed, and not in the image she may create of him by leaning on her own understanding.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

Background from Church Historian

Joseph Smith invited Nancy Rigdon, nineteen-year-old daughter of his close friend and counselor, Sidney Rigdon, to meet him at the home of Orson Hyde. Upon her arrival Smith greeted her, ushered her into a private room, then locked the door. After swearing her to secrecy, wrote George W. Robinson, Smith announced his "affection for her for several years, and wished that she should be his...the Lord was well pleased with this matter...here was no sin in it whatever...but, if she had any scruples of conscience about the matter, he would marry her privately."

But Nancy was not cooperative. Despite her young age, she did not hesitate to express herself. The prophet's behavior shocked her; she rebuffed him in a flurry of anger. Wickliffe Rigdon wrote that Smith, flustered, beckoned Mrs. Hyde into the room to help win Nancy over. Hyde volunteered that she too was surprised upon first hearing of the tenet, but was convinced it was true, and that "great exaltation would come to those who received and embraced it." Incredulous, Nancy countered that "if she ever got married she would marry a single man or none at all." Grabbing her bonnet, she ordered the door opened or she would "raise the neighbors." She then stormed out of the Hyde-Richards residence. (Sidney Rigdon Biography by Richard S. Van Wagoner, p.295)

Is the above true? And why don't we hear anything about Sidney Rigdon in the church? I visited Palmyra, NY last year. And in the tour to the Paul Whitmer farm, the gal that gave us the tour showed us to a room that had displays featuring the history of the church from beginning to present. I had just read the the Sidney Rigdon biograpy "A Portrait of Religious Excess" by Richard S. Van Wagoner. I asked her where any information was about him. She acted like she didn't know anything about him. Could the church have distanced themselves from him because of the quote above?

[Tacenda]

She can't truly believe in Christ if she believes more in herself. And, she can't rightly follow Christ's gospel by following herself and her own private gospel. The way of Christ is through him, not her. She is the way to herself and the best she has to offer herself. If that is fine with her, then have at it. But, if she wishes to become like Christ, she needs to be centered on Christ and follow him as he has revealed, and not in the image she may create of him by leaning on her own understanding.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So if she isn't a believer in her own gospel and is a believer in Christ is she a believer in Christ? Redundant question I know. I think you are going around my question somewhat. I think the answer is... if she isn't a believer in Christ's gospel which is only found in the LDS church, she is a believer in herself.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Tacenda

[KevinG]

This gets to very good point one of our brethren made in his sacrament meeting talk yesterday. we can spend too much time discussing/defending the peculiarities of Mormon history or speculative doctrines and add credence to the contention that we don't spend enough time testifying of Christ.

It shows a lack of personal responsibility when someone complains that the one piece of controversy they missed in all of the published histories and treatises about Mormonism has shocked them into rejecting all other claims and testimonies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints they claimed membership in.

[why me]

Is the above true? And why don't we hear anything about Sidney Rigdon in the church? I visited Palmyra, NY last year. And in the tour to the Paul Whitmer farm, the gal that gave us the tour showed us to a room that had displays featuring the history of the church from beginning to present. I had just read the the Sidney Rigdon biograpy "A Portrait of Religious Excess" by Richard S. Van Wagoner. I asked her where any information was about him. She acted like she didn't know anything about him. Could the church have distanced themselves from him because of the quote above?

Isn't sidney in the D&C? Section 100 mentions sidney rigdon. What is your problem?

[why me]

But Nancy was not cooperative. Despite her young age, she did not hesitate to express herself. The prophet's behavior shocked her; she rebuffed him in a flurry of anger. Wickliffe Rigdon wrote that Smith, flustered, beckoned Mrs. Hyde into the room to help win Nancy over. Hyde volunteered that she too was surprised upon first hearing of the tenet, but was convinced it was true, and that "great exaltation would come to those who received and embraced it." Incredulous, Nancy countered that "if she ever got married she would marry a single man or none at all." Grabbing her bonnet, she ordered the door opened or she would "raise the neighbors." She then stormed out of the Hyde-Richards residence. (Sidney Rigdon Biography by Richard S. Van Wagoner, p.295)

Actually, the Nancy Rigdon episode cancels out the idea that sidney wrote the book of mormon and used Joseph as a fall guy. As a father who wrote the book, and had joseph as my fall guy, to have him come on to my daughter would be bullet to his head time. But...since sidney did not write the book, it did not happen.

Edited July 9, 2012 by why me

[why me]

Is the above true? And why don't we hear anything about Sidney Rigdon in the church?

Check this out:

http://www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=sidney+rigdon

[why me]

It shows a lack of personal responsibility when someone complains that the one piece of controversy they missed in all of the published histories and treatises about Mormonism has shocked them into rejecting all other claims and testimonies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints they claimed membership in.

Kevin, I can assure you that if the church came out with a 2,000 page history, the critics will find something the church missed and shout conspiracy. The church cannot win. It plays too well in criticland.

[why me]

Check this out:

http://www.lds.org/s...y=sidney rigdon

Tacenda, any comments about not hearing about sidney in church. This was in the liahona in 2008 and it comes from the link above:

In our dispensation this same testimony was spoken boldly by the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he and Sidney Rigdon testified:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” ⁶

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2008/08/may-we-so-live?lang=eng&query=sidney+rigdon

Wow...imagine that. Sidney mentioned in the liahona.

Edited July 9, 2012 by why me

[Tacenda]

Isn't sidney in the D&C? Section 100 mentions sidney rigdon. What is your problem?

I have several problems. I guess things just keep coming up. But nowhere before this board, was I able to talk about my problems. And I've felt that you here have helped me get them off my chest and they've been weighing heavily there.

[wenglund]

Is the above true?

One of the basic principles of effectiveness, particularly in matters of progression, is to learn to ask the right questions--questions that are intended and designed to best move us forward and upward. Otherwise, we may end up asking and pursuing questions that may cause us to spin our wheels or digress.

You seem to be stuck doing the latter. Why is that?

To me, the better question would be: Is the above pertinent and helpful to me coming to Christ and becoming like him?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

Tacenda, any comments about not hearing about sidney in church. This was in the liahona in 2008 and it comes from the link above:

In our dispensation this same testimony was spoken boldly by the Prophet Joseph Smith, as he and Sidney Rigdon testified:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” ⁶

http://www.lds.org/l...y=sidney rigdon

Wow...imagine that. Sidney mentioned in the liahona.

My bad..

[KevinG]

I have several problems. I guess things just keep coming up. But nowhere before this board, was I able to talk about my problems. And I've felt that you here have helped me get them off my chest and they've been weighing heavily there.

It sounds like you could use a support network of Saints who don't take themselves too seriously. can you find some confidants who will listen and build your faith at the same time?

[wenglund]

So if she isn't a believer in her own gospel and is a believer in Christ is she a believer in Christ? Redundant question I know.

In various respects she obviously is a believer in her own gospel, and not Christ's. Were she a believer in Christ and the gospel of Christ, she would be centered on him and following in his path, rather than centered on what may or may not have happened in Joseph bedroom and following her own path.

I think you are going around my question somewhat. I think the answer is... if she isn't a believer in Christ's gospel which is only found in the LDS church, she is a believer in herself.

No. You are confused and not grasping my answer. If she is centered on Christ, and looks to him and follows the Spirit, whether it leads her towards or away from the LDS church, then she is a believer in and follower of Christ. Whereas, if she is centered on herself and her sentiments about Joseph's bedroom, and looks to herself and follows her emotions, then she is a believer in herself--as the case may be.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

It sounds like you could use a support network of Saints who don't take themselves too seriously. can you find some confidants who will listen and build your faith at the same time?

No, not really. I do have a sweet VT that I told I was having issues with. She explained she struggled with some of the same issues on her mission and her MP gave her a book that helped her. She said she would try and find it, but that was so long ago. And a friend of mine that I mentioned some things to, expressed she didn't want to hear anything that might hurt her testimony. So no, only my poor husband and this board. I did start out going to Staylds.com & NOM. But usually they're one sided. Thank's for asking though!

[KevinG]

No, not really. I do have a sweet VT that I told I was having issues with. She explained she struggled with some of the same issues on her mission and her MP gave her a book that helped her. She said she would try and find it, but that was so long ago. And a friend of mine that I mentioned some things to, expressed she didn't want to hear anything that might hurt her testimony. So no, only my poor husband and this board. I did start out going to Staylds.com & NOM. But usually they're one sided. Thank's for asking though!

Welcome- I can be sarcastic with those who seem to be flinging mud for the sake of it... but I am equally serious about people finding a good support network to ask the difficult questions. I had a great friend in college who loved to dabble in the darker corners of history but who did not let it shake his conviction that this is Christ's work.

Everyone should have at least one crazy friend like that who can help parse the serious questions of faith from the very human and sometimes unclear history of our people.

[ERayR]

She lives in the Mormon corridor, her friends and family are LDS, her neighbors are LDS, I believe she'd be better off inactive, I believe some people, not all, shun people like her that resign. I know of someone in my neighborhood who is a member but hasn't stepped foot in the LDS chapel for over 4 years and has been actively going to the K2 evangelical church. But because she's still a member the ward involves her. IMHO I believe people will be more receptive to people that keep their names on the records. I think it's going to create problems if someone resigns because it creates a stigma. Sounds cultish, but people are cruel. Therefore my plea to her not to resign, but we'll see.

You keep parroting the critic anti-Mormon line on everything, This time it is shunning. Not so. It may, and probably does, happen but in all my years (not a few) I have not seen this happen. What I have seen, but not often, a couple of times, is the person leaving becomes so obnoxious with there new found wisdom and snide remarks is that believing members have a hard time associating peacefully with them.

[ERayR]

This is interesting because I think it goes back to that old adage, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I find out the more I know the fewer questions I have and I think too many people get a glimpse of information taken out of context and then leave it at that, letting it shake their faith. Context and presentation is everything.

The problem is they think they know it all and don't look any further.

[Libs]

The problem I have is that Joseph gave us doctrine which makes so much sense and which in and of itself convinces me of the truth of the church claims. In fact I had a testimony of these things (ie pre-mortal existence, degrees of glory, Godhead, baptism for the dead, etc) before I had a testimony of Joseph Smith. I then realized that it was Joseph Smith who gave us these things and if they are true then he is a true prophet.

I have a testimony of some of those things, as well, Deborah, but it doesn't, necessarily, follow (in my judgment) that Joseph was a prophet. I don't, honestly, know if he was or not. That doesn't mean some of the things he taught are not universal truths. I believe some of the things he taught are true. I don't think that, necessarily, makes him a prophet, anymore that it makes you or I a prophet.

[why me]

My bad..

Be careful of critic sites. Sidney is not overlooked at all. In fact, I do remember discussing him many times in priesthood but this was years ago. I always felt a little sorry for him for leaving the church. But then I discovered that he was beaten by mobs, dragged down the street by a wild horse and suffered a head injury. He was never the same after incident.

[why me]

I have several problems. I guess things just keep coming up. But nowhere before this board, was I able to talk about my problems. And I've felt that you here have helped me get them off my chest and they've been weighing heavily there.

I am glad that you are here. Many would avoid this board and go with the flow of what they discovered. You have shown yourself to be a true seeker. Just don't take it personal if someone gets a a little testy with you. They mean no harm. They are also human.

[why me]

I have a testimony of some of those things, as well, Deborah, but it doesn't, necessarily, follow (in my judgment) that Joseph was a prophet. I don't, honestly, know if he was or not. That doesn't mean some of the things he taught are not universal truths. I believe some of the things he taught are true. I don't think that, necessarily, makes him a prophet, anymore that it makes you or I a prophet.

You are in good company with some of the witnesses. But remember that these witnesses never denied their testimonies of what happened with the book of mormon. Can you deny your testimony? If not, you are still in the church, just can't get a grip around joseph.

[Tacenda]

You keep parroting the critic anti-Mormon line on everything, This time it is shunning. Not so. It may, and probably does, happen but in all my years (not a few) I have not seen this happen. What I have seen, but not often, a couple of times, is the person leaving becomes so obnoxious with there new found wisdom and snide remarks is that believing members have a hard time associating peacefully with them.

Well, you're probably correct. I guess they don't shun outright. But they aren't best friends either. I hate divisions like these. I truly believe it isn't as prevelant in the mission field just by reading on some boards other than this one. But I did read just today on Nom a story similar to what I just said. The guy had this friend and mentor that had helped him cope with abuse in his younger life. And when he told him he no longer believed in the church... this guy became curt in his conversations and the dynamics in their relationship has since changed. And no longer does he have his best friend and confidant. Edited July 9, 2012 by Tacenda

[Libs]

You are in good company with some of the witnesses. But remember that these witnesses never denied their testimonies of what happened with the book of mormon. Can you deny your testimony? If not, you are still in the church, just can't get a grip around joseph.

No, I cannot deny my testimony of the Book of Mormon. But, I don't consider myself in the church, mainly because I no longer attend or participate. I do not consider the LDS Church "the only true church on the planet".

[why me]

Well, you're probably correct. I guess they don't shun outright. But they aren't best friends either. I hate divisions like these. I truly believe it isn't as prevelant in the mission field just by reading on some boards other than this one. But I did read just today on Nom a story similar to what I just said. The guy had this friend and mentor that had helped him cope with abuse in his younger life. And when he told him he no longer believed in the church... this guy became curt in his conversations and the dynamics in their relationship has since changed. And no longer does he have his best friend and confidant.

This stories are often interesting but I haven't seen any proof of this at all. In fact just the opposite. I don't know many families who have all family members active. And since this is the case, I have seen no shunning at all. In fact, just the opposite. There is love for the one's who have left the fold and a desire for them to come back.

And what does the church teach: to love those who left and be loving toward them. I have never seen or heard any GA say, shun those who leave. And it is certainly not church policy. Now does it happen? I suppose so since they end up on NOM. But are these stories true? Who knows.

Edited July 9, 2012 by why me