Complete Honesty Versus Protection Of Faith

[rongo]

I have an extended discussion of the "Canadian Copyright Incident" in my FAIR paper:

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/jones-mckay/well-nigh-as-dangerous

(sections "Some are of God, some are of men" and "The Lesson of the Toronto Incident").

I think this is a crucial element of understanding true revelation and the parameters, and I don't try to explain it away. Joseph's explanation for the apparently "wrong" revelation, as reported by David Whitmer (which I believe is genuine), is that discerning and understanding revelation is not a given, even for prophets. My paper focuses on why this is a strength for Mormonism, not a weakness.

[ShawFanX]

As long as you do your research only on sites designed to destroy all things LDS and to believe those things without reservation you will never find factual answers. Your pattern seems to be to go out to one of those sites and find an issue and come back and post it here. Then when that issue is discredited you go out and find another. Rinse and repeat. Let's try and break the cycle. Now instead of one of those sites go to FAIR and find your issue and read about it at FAIR.

This is a longstanding human weakness but has always seemed to me to be a bit more concentrated in the anti-Mormon/ex-Mormon intellectual world. One begins to question or doubt something and finds oneself devouring the Tanner's stuff and Signature Book's titles but avoiding Nibley or FAMRS scholarship. This happens in other areas of life too, but balaned, intellectually self honest study is a plus no matter what the subject matter. With respect to the gospel and the Church, it looms far larger than in any other area in which we come to aquire knolwedge in this life.

Loran

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Also, the prophecy that he told Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page to go to Canada to sell the copyright of the BOM to a man willing to buy it. And when it didn't happen JS admitted it was a false prophecy. That to me is a character issue and a make profit issue. If it is a religious book that will restore the gospel then why is he selling it? It tells me he realised he'd do better using it to start a religion.

So JS started a religion for money. He sure did a lousy job of that. This is a favorite meme of some critics. Sorry but the facts just don't bear this out.

[rongo]

This is a longstanding human weakness but has always seemed to me to be a bit more concentrated in the anti-Mormon/ex-Mormon intellectual world. One begins to question or doubt something and finds oneself devouring the Tanner's stuff and Signature Book's titles but avoiding Nibley or FAMRS scholarship.

Maybe many of us will start avoiding "FARMS scholarship," under the Gerald Bradford direction. Time will tell.

[ERayR]

So JS started a religion for money. He sure did a lousy job of that. This is a favorite meme of some critics. Sorry but the facts just don't bear this out.

You didn't know about the secret Swiss bank accounts?

[ShawFanX]

DBMormon

Some will jump in here and ask where the church has withheld information or truth. I will be a broken record and say that it is impossible to discover Polyandry (Joseph's sealings to already married women) from any of the following sources - LDS.ORG, Church lesson manual, Ensign, Liahona, New Era, Friend, General Conference Talk, or any other current LDS sponsored source of info.

This is apropos to the whole tenor of this thread, and a good place to take a closer look at just what kind of thinking it is that takes this kind of position with respect to LDS history vis-a-vis official Church sources. The question I simply wish to ask here is, "What polyandry?" Joseph's "sealings" to already married women" do not represent "polyandray" in any accepted sense of the term, as there was, to all historical and documentary events, no actual connubial relations, nor any further relationship, outside of the normal platonic kind, after these sealings. They had eternal significance only.

Hence, what could the church be "hiding" regarding "polyandry?"

Loran

[ShawFanX]

Maybe many of us will start avoiding "FARMS scholarship," under the Gerald Bradford direction. Time will tell.

But you could have avoided it all along. What Bradford is now bringing to the MI appears to be the end of apologetic intellectual work per se, as it had been concieved when FARMS was created, not any reason to avoid it, as it will, for all intents, no longer be there to avoid.

Loran

[wenglund]

To those that feel I'm only here to stir up a ruckus, I'm certainly not. I'm probably hung up on whether the non Lds Christians are telling the truth when they say that we believe in a different Jesus or we believe the bible to be acceptable only as far as it's translated correctly but the BOM is the most correct book but doesn't have near the evidence the bible has if any at all. Or finding out late in life about Masonry being a large componet in our LDS faith. And finding out that JS was among many that had visions, and he was aware of the many unanswered questions swirling around in those times and then answering them.

Also, the prophecy that he told Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page to go to Canada to sell the copyright of the BOM to a man willing to buy it. And when it didn't happen JS admitted it was a false prophecy. That to me is a character issue and a make profit issue. If it is a religious book that will restore the gospel then why is he selling it? It tells me he realised he'd do better using it to start a religion.

Well, again, it looks as though you don't need God. You evidently believe that you and your Evangelical friends, even given your finite and fallible human minds, have sufficient knowledge and all else that is needed to judge the things of God without him and his Spirit. And, if you don't need to appeal to or listen to God, then you certainly don't need to hear from me and the other LDS on this board. You have yourself and your Evangelical friends as your spiritual guide and compass. Who would want for more?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Calm]

But what about this portion of the FAIR article......

What is your specific question?

I added some relevant quotes from the BYU Studies paper dealing with why it was considered appropriate to sell a copyright in Canada (to prevent piracy of the text in Canada as well as providing funds to pay for the printing of the text by Grandin in the US), you might want to reread it to get the highlights if you are not interested in reading the actual article.

[Calm]

I have an extended discussion of the "Canadian Copyright Incident" in my FAIR paper:

http://www.fairlds.o...gh-as-dangerous

(sections "Some are of God, some are of men" and "The Lesson of the Toronto Incident").

I think this is a crucial element of understanding true revelation and the parameters, and I don't try to explain it away. Joseph's explanation for the apparently "wrong" revelation, as reported by David Whitmer (which I believe is genuine), is that discerning and understanding revelation is not a given, even for prophets. My paper focuses on why this is a strength for Mormonism, not a weakness.

What do you think of the BYU Studies paper by Ehat and his analysis of Whitmer's claim?

[Tacenda]

What do you think of the BYU Studies paper by Ehat and his analysis of Whitmer's claim?

“Some Are of God, Some Are of Men . . .”

A favorite “false prophecy” of critics in particular provides a perfect background for examining the assumptions and mindset that are behind many claims critical of prophecy and revelation in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Several options for printing the Book of Mormon had been explored before deciding to publish it through the E. B Grandin printing establishment in Palmyra. These lesser-known options included future New York politician Thurlow Weed (who turned down the offer) and Rochester printer Elihu Marshall (who was willing, but whom it was ultimately decided not to publish through). While the question of whether Martin Harris would be able to provide the necessary security to print the Book of Mormon was still unresolved, Joseph’s brother Hyrum suggested that they “might go to Toronto, Canada, and sell the copyright of the book . . . that is, sell the right to publish the book in the Canadian provinces, not dispose of the copyright absolutely.” Joseph inquired of the Lord and “received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and they would sell the copyright.”

Accordingly, Oliver Cowdery and Hiram Page . . . went to Canada to sell the copyright, but failed. David Whitmer represents that this failure threw the little group of believers into great trouble, and they went to the Prophet and asked him to account for the failure. The Prophet frankly acknowledged his inability to understand the cause of the failure, and inquired of the Lord. He received for an answer . . . this: “Some revelations are of God; some revelations are of man; and some revelations are of the devil.”<a href="http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Latter-day_Prophecy_and_Revelation.html#en51">⁵¹

The passage above was something I had never seen before. I guess because JS had trouble getting the BOM published this was an avenue that he thought might do the trick, but it didn't. So not for financial gain, as the critics, myself included as my previous posts indicate, thought...I'm humbled that I jump to believing them instead of searching more of the source that apparently knows best. Thanks for getting me to read the whole article, Cal.

[Calm]

Please remember this when next time you draw a conclusion that reflects negatively on something and consider doing more research before finalizing that conclusion. (It is a good general principle, not only for researching controversies involving matters of faith.)

I'm humbled that I jump to believing them instead of searching more of the source that apparently knows best.

I don't know about knowing "best". I would never make that claim, but FAIR as a whole works hard at trying to be as comprehensive as possible with the relevant facts known though some would probably debate over what we consider as relevant and not. Edited July 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[rongo]

What do you think of the BYU Studies paper by Ehat and his analysis of Whitmer's claim?

I differ in that I see absolutely no problem with Whitmer's interpretation of what happened (i.e., that Joseph inquired of the Lord, received as an answer that they should go to Toronto, the trip was a failure by any measure, he inquired again as to the reasons, and received the answer that "some revelations are of God, some are of man, and some are of the devil"). Many, including Ehat and others (usually quoting Hiram Page), seek to represent the revelation as conditional from the beginning, but I don't see a need for it. Whitmer's interpretation is completely consistent with multiple statements and principles taught by multiple prophets: revelation is always filtered through mortality, and absolute "success" in receiving, discerning, and articulating revelation is not possible in mortality. And it's best this way (hence the title quote "Well Nigh as Dangerous" ----- it is an open question whether belief in infallibility or complete rejection of the possibility of revelation is worse).

[Tacenda]

After going on 5 years of reading critics of the church and obsessing over it all, it might take a long time to rid me of the bug of disbelief. It's in there pretty tightly, keeps me up at night, took my time away from everything I love, my husband, my children, my life. I'm tired of the middle way. And I'm either jumping ship or jumping in the ship. I don't know, but I can't stand it any longer. Thanks for putting up with the freak that I feel I can be. I appreciate the "tough love" of you fine people. I need to hear the truth, and that is I need to pull my head out and go to Him. He's the only way. Thanks Wade for always reiterating that fact even though very annoying, it's true.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Tacenda

[why me]

I don't know about knowing "best". I would never make that claim, but FAIR as a whole works hard at trying to be as comprehensive as possible with the relevant facts known though some would probably debate over what we consider as relevant and not.

This is true. I know that I owe a lot to FAIR and the work that they do. Coming to the FAIR discussion board was the best move that I made on the internet. I still remember the old postmo crowd predicting that I would be banned after a few posts on FAIR. True I was banned from the postmo crowd but found a nice home on FAIR and eventually here on MDD.

Edited July 10, 2012 by why me

[why me]

After going on 5 years of reading critics of the church and obsessing over it all, it might take a long time to rid me of the bug of disbelief. It's in there pretty tightly, keeps me up at night, took my time away from everything I love, my husband, my children, my life. I'm tired of the middle way. And I'm either jumping ship or jumping in the ship. I don't know, but I can't stand it any longer. Thanks for putting up with the freak that I feel I can be. I appreciate the "tough love" of you fine people. I need to hear the truth, and that is I need to pull my head out and go to Him. He's the only way. Thanks Wade for always reiterating that fact even though very annoying, it's true.

Remember that critic sites attempt to cast doubt in the member's mind. And they can be very successful. But you came here and had good conversations with many fine people, each having their own personal road of faith. I think that you should consider yourself lucky. The critic sites want people to leave and to be bitter toward the church. Not a very positive feeling.

[DBMormon]

Well, again, it looks as though you don't need God. You evidently believe that you and your Evangelical friends, even given your finite and fallible human minds, have sufficient knowledge and all else that is needed to judge the things of God without him and his Spirit. And, if you don't need to appeal to or listen to God, then you certainly don't need to hear from me and the other LDS on this board. You have yourself and your Evangelical friends as your spiritual guide and compass. Who would want for more?

Wade, I like you... I mean that.... but your too harsh. Pretend the folks you speak to can be rescued and God is counting on you to represent his son and to leave the 99 and fetch the one..... please. And yes I understand that there are times one has to have someone look them right in the eye and reproove them by the spirit, but not everyone is benefited by that approach.

[wenglund]

Thanks Wade for always reiterating that fact even though very annoying, it's true.

Being an annoyance seems to be my lot in life, though my intent is to be of help. As indicated previously, you strike me as a good person with worthy desires, and to the extent that you put your faith in God, things will go well for you. All my best to you in working through your current struggles.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DBMormon]

After going on 5 years of reading critics of the church and obsessing over it all, it might take a long time to rid me of the bug of disbelief. It's in there pretty tightly, keeps me up at night, took my time away from everything I love, my husband, my children, my life. I'm tired of the middle way. And I'm either jumping ship or jumping in the ship. I don't know, but I can't stand it any longer. Thanks for putting up with the freak that I feel I can be. I appreciate the "tough love" of you fine people. I need to hear the truth, and that is I need to pull my head out and go to Him. He's the only way. Thanks Wade for always reiterating that fact even though very annoying, it's true.

Tacenda - I can't emphasize enough from personal experience and similar feelings and struggles that I have had and some of those very recent.... that you have to take things slow and test assumptions. Unbelief is difficult because critics have caused you and me to take anything the church does with a grain of salt. We have been tricked into trusting the critic and thinking the worst of the church at every turn. It is an awful abyss to be in and makes climbing back up the mountain difficult including one step back at times to take two steps forward.

I have said this before but it is so true...... My testimony of the church is at it's peak on Sundays when I am there... During those hours I have no doubts, it all fits, and it is beautiful to me...... then somewhere in the week I am hit again by some doubt and if I let it, it eats me up. Work in progress, But where I used to think this would never get better, It did. Take your time and test every assumption you have.

[Calm]

I differ in that I see absolutely no problem with Whitmer's interpretation of what happened (i.e., that Joseph inquired of the Lord, received as an answer that they should go to Toronto, the trip was a failure by any measure, he inquired again as to the reasons, and received the answer that "some revelations are of God, some are of man, and some are of the devil")

So are you saying this revelation was of man or of the devil? Because otherwise it would seem to be a nonsequitur.

I get the not infallible concept and that could be "of man", but I am not sure about the "of devil" bit though again there is that time with Hiram Page, IIRC.

What about Ehat's comments that those actually involved did not look on it as a failure?

Edited July 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

After going on 5 years of reading critics of the church and obsessing over it all, it might take a long time to rid me of the bug of disbelief. It's in there pretty tightly, keeps me up at night, took my time away from everything I love, my husband, my children, my life. I'm tired of the middle way. And I'm either jumping ship or jumping in the ship. I don't know, but I can't stand it any longer. Thanks for putting up with the freak that I feel I can be. I appreciate the "tough love" of you fine people. I need to hear the truth, and that is I need to pull my head out and go to Him. He's the only way. Thanks Wade for always reiterating that fact even though very annoying, it's true.

Hope you come back to the ship. If you do you are going to have some tough choices. You are going to have to get strong enough to ignore your evangelical friends or you are going to have to do as alcoholics do and get new friends. At least for a while.

As you make your decision you might consider which makes you happy. A belief in a loving heavenly father, LDS style, or finding fauld with things LDS.

Hope you find what makes you happy.

[Calm]

ignore your evangelical friends

If I read you right, you mean ignore their negative comments....not ignore them completely (that would be the second option if she can't handle the negative comments and they make her toxic...as my mother says about negativity in general.)

[wenglund]

Wade, I like you... I mean that.... but your too harsh. Pretend the folks you speak to can be rescued and God is counting on you to represent his son and to leave the 99 and fetch the one..... please. And yes I understand that there are times one has to have someone look them right in the eye and reproove them by the spirit, but not everyone is benefited by that approach.

I like you, too, DB.

However, your board nannying, like your ark-steadying, is ill-advised because I don't view you as someone with a very good grasp of effective interpersonal and instructional skills, though evidently you mistakenly presume that you do--even better than trained professionals who have been called of God.

Truth is, even though I lay no claim to perfection, I have been at this extensively for nearly four decades, over which time I have developed a fairly good sense for what works in a given situation and what doesn't. Accordingly, I will vary my approach depending upon what I think is best depending upon the person and the situation.

You, of course, are free to do your own thing the way you think you should. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

If I read you right, you mean ignore their negative comments....not ignore them completely (that would be the second option if she can't handle the negative comments and they make her toxic...as my mother says about negativity in general.)

Yes.

[Tacenda]

Thanks DB for your honesty, you truly have a handle of what I'm going through, and thanks Cal, Why Me, ErayR, Wade, you gave me the kick in the pants I needed to go to the source above all others, because it taint no good anymore through cyberspace where btw, are the only EV friends I know of. And thanks Libs and Garden Girl for your sweet pm's. And Deborah who along with so many on here, your testimony is solid! It's helped immeasurably to spill the beans here rather than hurt alot of people I love.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Tacenda