Ya Gotta Love John Dehlin'S Reasoning

[wenglund]

Yeah wow. And how is this attitude any different than when faithful LDS get all lumped into a brain washed cult? Both sides can play this game.

Good point. Stereotyping tends not to be a good thing for anyone, and can come back to bit you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Verum]

Assertion #2:

"I am such a victim of being taught incorrect things in primary! LDS Church raped me!"

I’m tired of the “blame the victim” attitude from the apologist corner. The “members should take responsibility for what they learn in church” is extremely irritating.

Wow. Expressing's one frustration about how apologists' view those who struggle with issues in the church is a huge stretch from the offensive caricature you provided.

There are always people who will play the victim, but of course to caricature a whole group of people this way if very misguided. There are many humble, honest people involved in MS, and there are people who play the victim, just like anywhere.

It appears that Verum may have been projecting. The critics have been doing that a lot lately.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Glad to also be characterized as a critic now. Can we just engage in dialogue over specif topics and issues, or is this just a place where people go to get labeled and judged?

[wenglund]

Glad to also be characterized as a critic now. Can we just engage in dialogue over specif topics and issues, or is this just a place where people go to get labeled and judged?

False dichotomy and hyper-sensativity to categorizations aside, I am willing to discuss the specific topic of you projecting. In fact, that is what I was doing in the post to which you are here responding. I am waiting to see if you can just engage that issue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Hamilton Porter]

Wow. Expressing's one frustration about how apologists' view those who struggle with issues in the church is a huge stretch from the offensive caricature you provided.

There are always people who will play the victim, but of course to caricature a whole group of people this way if very misguided. There are many humble, honest people involved in MS, and there are people who play the victim, just like anywhere.

Fair enough.

That doesn't mean those examples are representative of most who follow John's podcasts (who are at least 2000 and probably many more).

I certainly don't question why intelligent people belong to the LDS Church or any other. Spirituality is not, primarily, a working of the intellect (although the intellect is, of course, involved for most of us). Spirituality is more philosophical, emotional, feeling of connectedness to something higher than our intellect...

fair enough.

[Hamilton Porter]

Boy, when Dehlin calls for the troops they march in lock-step to the call. To think that these people have a issues with the LDS Church? These are all cookie-cutter people and none of them have an original thought. Wow!

Baal rides the clouds again, bringing rain and knocking down high lampposts in the DC metro area, making the fields fertile.

[Mark Beesley]

Can we just engage in dialogue over specif topics and issues, or is this just a place where people go to get labeled and judged?

ROTFLMAO

<getting up off the floor> Welcome to Mormon Apologetics on the internet.

(I'm being uncharitable. There are some good discussion on this Board. None of those dealing with the Maxwell Institute or John Dehlin fall within that category. They are inherently personal in nature, and thus provoke personal responses.)

Edited July 2, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[CASteinman]

These "insults" by Welch are rather gentle and lightweight. But to Dehlin they strike at his heart and grieve him.

Dehlin must be a very sensitive soul.

[CASteinman]

Boy, when Dehlin calls for the troops they march in lock-step to the call. To think that these people have a issues with the LDS Church? These are all cookie-cutter people and none of them have an original thought. Wow!

Sounds like a complaint against the LDS!

Anyway.. Dehlin has learned that "Its Good to be the King".

[William Schryver]

That is a really well-written article. One of the best I've read in a long time. My only criticism would be that the analogy to gay high school clubs seemed a little forced.

But other than that, really good!

(I have edited this post to reflect my experiment with making message board posts using the concept of Royal Skousen's "sense lines" for his The Earliest Text edition of the Book of Mormon.)

Alas, so rarely do you and I find ourselves completely in accord on a matter of some moment.

This is one of them, even to your criticism

of her strained analogy to the high school gay/straight alliance club,

which gave her little if any rhetorical benefit

at the expense of it being exploited as a distraction

in the hands of her critics.

Other than that,

I think it among the best of the comments I've heard so far

in this ongoing worldwide online conversation

about an authentic "watershed moment" in the history of Mormon apologetics

and the larger online discussion occurring in the so-called "bloggernacle"*.

* = I'm not sure if the various message boards rightly belong within the generally understood meaning of "The Bloggernacle",

or if they should be considered a category in and of themselves.

Edited July 3, 2012 by William Schryver

[Mark Beesley]

(I have edited this post to reflect my experiment with making message board posts using the concept of Royal Skousen's "sense lines" for his The Earliest Text edition of the Book of Mormon.)

Alas, so rarely do you and I find ourselves completely in accord on a matter of some moment.

This is one of them, even to your criticism

of her strained analogy to the high school gay/straight alliance club,

which gave her little if any rhetorical benefit

at the expense of it being exploited as a distraction

in the hands of her critics.

Other than that,

I think it among the best of the comments I've heard so far

in this ongoing worldwide online conversation

about an authentic "watershed moment" in the history of Mormon apologetics

and the larger online discussion occurring in the so-called "bloggernacle"*.

* = I'm not sure if the various message boards rightly belong within the generally understood meaning of "The Bloggernacle",

or if they should be considered a category in and of themselves.

Could you make the footnote a little smaller.

A matter of some moment?

and

A watershed moment?

I daresay, probably upwards of 95% of the Church membership is blissfully unaware of the moment, (but I understand, Mormon Apologetics is a rather small watershed.).

[Libs]

These "insults" by Welch are rather gentle and lightweight. But to Dehlin they strike at his heart and grieve him.

Dehlin must be a very sensitive soul.

I think he is a sensitive soul, which is why he is so good at what he does.

Long term, the only opinions that really count are those whom he has helped....and God.

[William Schryver]

I think he is a sensitive soul, which is why he is so good at what he does.

Leading people down the path of apostasy is the sign of a "sensitive soul"?

Who'd a known?

[Kenngo1969]

Here is a poster's reply to Rosalynde Welch's post at Patheos, followed by my reply.

Hodjaz: It never surprises me what people will write to keep the status quo and gain a little favor. Perhaps most telling is how damaging the shake up was to LDS amateur apologist cronyism. Danny Boy was a mean, arrogant, un-respected man in all circles outside of BYU/Provo Utah where he was of course in good company. RIP Dan we will miss your lies and attacks. Perhaps you can take a few more BofM tour trips to South America.

Kenngo1969: It's said that one can tell a lot about someone by who his friends are. I suspect the same is true of one's enemies. I have a great deal of respect for Professor Peterson and his friends, and, quite frankly, a good deal less respect for his enemies. If your interaction with him has been confined to cyberspace and you have never had the chance to interact with him face-to-face, I wonder if that interaction has provided you with enough information to enable you to make the judgments you do about him. (And I say that as one who has never interacted with him face-to-face myself). I also wonder where you're getting your information about how Professor Peterson is regarded in academic circles. Personally, I suspect it is, well ... suspect.

I don't deny that what has happened at the Maxwell Institute portends challenges for Professors Peterson, Midgley, Hamblin, Welch, et al, and their brand of LDS apologetics. And, while I've read a good deal of what has been produced by FARMS/the Maxwell Institute/the Mormon Review over the years, I'm not prepared to concede that your characterization of that product is correct. And I think your giddy crowing over the alleged demise of Peterson/Hamblin (et al) style apologetics is entirely premature.

"Danny Boy"? Thanks for bringing to mind one of my favorite songs. And one man's "meanness" and "arrogance" are another man's good-natured ribbing and refusal to suffer fools gladly by folks who see no need to allow those who attack the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its principles and practices, and its leaders to do so without opposition; in other words, they fulfill Elder Maxwell's vision of refusing to allow the opposition uncontested slam-dunks.

"RIP"? I wasn't aware that anyone had died. If someone had, I would find your crowing over that to be at least as mean-spirited as you accuse Professor Peterson of being. While I'm sure Professor Peterson and others feel the setback very keenly given everything they have devoted to the Maxwell Institute and its predecessor organizations over the years, I doubt they're the kind of people who will be content to ride off into the sunset. While I won't presume to predict what form any "Phoenix rising from the ashes" might take, I doubt you've seen the last of "former-MI-style" apologetics.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

I think he is a sensitive soul, which is why he is so good at what he does.

Long term, the only opinions that really count are those whom he has helped....and God.

True, so true!

[Pahoran]

His response to this patheos article:

http://www.patheos.c...06-29-2012.html

Insulting Mormon Stories = Insulting everyone who's ever been on that podcast?

John Dehlin is not a sharp cookie.

On the contrary. This is the same tactic he used with the Greg Smith critique: chant incessantly that it was "mean" and get people to dismiss it without reading it. It worked once, why shouldn't it work again?

Mister Dehlin is clearly a very sharp cookie. When it comes to manipulating people, there are few sharper.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Libs]

Leading people down the path of apostasy is the sign of a "sensitive soul"?

Who'd a known?

I don't think he is doing that. Many were already on that path, before they met up with John Dehlin. And, some were just trying to find a way to stay in the church, with integrity. I think John, himself, was looking for exactly that, in the beginning....and he is actually still in the church, although, granted, just by a thread, but still there....and so are many of his associates (I don't really like calling them "followers"...Mormon Stories is not a religion)..

OTOH, I think John lost some of his objectivity, when it came to Dr. Peterson (whom I very much respect and admire).

[CASteinman]

I think he is a sensitive soul, which is why he is so good at what he does.

Long term, the only opinions that really count are those whom he has helped....and God.

I do not believe the opinions of those he has "helped" matter either, really. But I agree about God.

[cwald]

I do not believe the opinions of those he has "helped" matter either, really...

Wow...just another example of why people who are struggling with faith need Mormon stories.

[Darren10]

John Dehlin is not a sharp cookie.

Nor a chocolate chip cookie. Those are sweet.

[ERayR]

I think he is a sensitive soul, which is why he is so good at what he does.

Long term, the only opinions that really count are those whom he has helped....and God.

Sensitive to what? The cold, heat or that he just cries when he doesn't have everything his way?

[ERayR]

On the contrary. This is the same tactic he used with the Greg Smith critique: chant incessantly that it was "mean" and get people to dismiss it without reading it. It worked once, why shouldn't it work again?

Mister Dehlin is clearly a very sharp cookie. When it comes to manipulating people, there are few sharper.

Regards,

Pahoran

But Pahoran he is sooooooooo sensitive.

[ERayR]

I don't think he is doing that. Many were already on that path, before they met up with John Dehlin. And, some were just trying to find a way to stay in the church, with integrity. I think John, himself, was looking for exactly that, in the beginning....and he is actually still in the church, although, granted, just by a thread, but still there....and so are many of his associates (I don't really like calling them "followers"...Mormon Stories is not a religion)..

OTOH, I think John lost some of his objectivity, when it came to Dr. Peterson (whom I very much respect and admire).

And he only greased the slide. How helpful.

[Hamilton Porter]

On the contrary. This is the same tactic he used with the Greg Smith critique: chant incessantly that it was "mean" and get people to dismiss it without reading it. It worked once, why shouldn't it work again?

Mister Dehlin is clearly a very sharp cookie. When it comes to manipulating people, there are few sharper.

Regards,

Pahoran

So he posts an article critical of him, and tries to send his troops to mob Welch. Then too many Welch supporters comment, and he take the link down. Guy is a wuss.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

So he posts an article critical of him, and tries to send his troops to mob Welch. Then too many Welch supporters comment, and he take the link down. Guy is a wuss.