John Dehlin...Giant Killer

[cwald]

Of course, it is good politics for him to mention that website, even though it may be more or less defunct....

I don't know what you mean? Defunct?

Edited June 30, 2012 by cwald

[why me]

Well, after all, the brethren know best, I shall cease and desist criticizing. Who am I to know anything near what they do right? They are always the most spiritual and enlightened, so I bow down and humbly submit and obey as usual........but it still moves........

I think that your bark is louder than your bite. You are making good points and the points that you are making comes from a lot of critical thinking experience. And I do agree with you. However, even in the new testament, paul is warning the church about devisions and he suggests that the church be of one mind to limit the damage from internal divisions. I don't think that it is possible to have too mainly chefs in the kitchen. If we have too many chefs, the only thing that will be made is a sloppy joe.

[why me]

Yes. As a "Dehlinite" as us NOMs are sometimes called...I think john made a mistake.

I've been very upfront....this wolves and JD issue is what brought me here.

I think that when he came back for round two of his podcasts, he made a mistake. He would have been a 'legend' if he would have quit when he was ahead. John Larsen attempted to takeover where John left off, pulling his own podcasts in a different direction however from John's first podcasts.

I don't think John Dehlin could have stayed away. Too much excitement about him and too much 'fame'. He had to return to get some of the glory back. I probably would have done the same: saw myself as a 'savior' of the NOM or as the 'savior' of something.

[why me]

I don't know what you mean? Defunct?

I don't know how much he upgrades 'StayLDS' or if he has left it just for browsing. If the latter, it is defunct.

Edited June 30, 2012 by why me

[Libs]

Of course, it is good politics for him to mention that website, even though it may be more or less defunct. I enjoyed his Blacks and the Priesthood podcast. And if you listen to it, it seems that he is attempting to find his own answers through his questions. And I think that it why his first stage of podcasts were successful and helpful to many members. But now...I think his podcasts are different, with a different objective. Sadly, since the article was squashed by him, we may never get to read what Greg wrote so we can make an intelligent judgement about John.

But it is strange that someone who calls for more openness in the church would squash a piece about himself. Does he have something to hide?

IMO, it really depends on what was in the article. If it really was "hit piece", meaning it was full of misleading information (think, something like you have seen the critics write about Joseph Smith) then, I can understand wanting to suppress it.

The problem is that John didn't get to see the article before it was supposedly going to be published, so he was probably thinking worse case scenario, when he made the decision to try and suppress it. Kind of understandable, considering he was likely not going to get the opportunity to see it, before it was released. It may not be as bad as he imagined, but who knows? I wish we could all know, to tell you the truth. I would like to see the article.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Libs

[cwald]

I don't know how much he upgrades 'StayLDS' or if he has left it just for browsing. If the latter, it is defunct.

I see.

The site is very much alive. It is ran by Brian Johnston. ...who is a board member of the mormonstories foundation.

[cwald]

John just doesn't run it personally...but has other folks who are interested do it.

BTW...Brian Johnston was recently (end of may) interviewed by the Washington post. "Mormons who struggle turn to the internet."

[cwald]

... I wish we could all know, to tell you the truth. I would like to see the article.

Yep.

[yootaw]

It seems clear that there are people that find value in the work of apologists. I have not read much apolegetic work, so I won't speak to that. I will say that I have found value in John's work. John allows for multiple spiritual paths -- some that lead people to a renewal of faith in the church, some that lead people out of the church, and some that are in between. I can see how this is a threatening idea to people who believe that the church provides the only path back to God. Why not allow for value on both sides of the isle? How do attacks from either side help?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

It seems clear that there are people that find value in the work of apologists. I have not read much apolegetic work, so I won't speak to that. I will say that I have found value in John's work. John allows for multiple spiritual paths -- some that lead people to a renewal of faith in the church, some that lead people out of the church, and some that are in between. I can see how this is a threatening idea to people who believe that the church provides the only path back to God. Why not allow for value on both sides of the isle? How do attacks from either side help?

I suspect on both sides, there is some uneasiness about being different from each other. Any time in religion when a difference pops up an inquisition, either mental or physical begins to occur because we apparently have the instinct of self preservation which resists change and or evidence we think does not fit our own paradigm of truth. Hence the over gajillion Christian sects all claiming to be THE truth, and Mormonism with her dozens and gobs of offshoots each claiming to be THE truth....... Never mind Islam, Hindu, etc each claiming to be THE truth........ mind you.....today. ALL more or less claiming revelation and inspiration from God through feeling the spirit.......... a most interesting conundrum we Mormons are beginning to notice on the net here as Evangelicals and other brands of Christians are now bearing their own testimonies against our testimonies in a testimony face off and war......

[cwald]

It seems clear that there are people that find value in the work of apologists. I have not read much apolegetic work, so I won't speak to that. I will say that I have found value in John's work. John allows for multiple spiritual paths -- some that lead people to a renewal of faith in the church, some that lead people out of the church, and some that are in between. I can see how this is a threatening idea to people who believe that the church provides the only path back to God. Why not allow for value on both sides of the isle? How do attacks from either side help?

Thank You.

Edited June 30, 2012 by cwald

[Calm]

deleted

Edited June 30, 2012 by calmoriah

[cwald]

Okay.

[cwald]

Fixed it. Now fix your quote.

[rodheadlee]

Remind me not to use this analogy again, with a bunch of sailors on board!

All I was trying to say was that sometimes things do catch us by surprise, through no fault of our own...and we are simply unprepared for the fallout it brings. (yes, yes, I know all about the ten virgins and their lamps...but still, even if your lamp is full, you can trip and spill it, right?) . Sometimes, things do catch us unaware and we have to muddle through as best we can.

I think it's a good anaolgy. I guess the point would be is that after all we can do to be prepared then we still must call on Heavenly Father to help us survive the storm.

Edited June 30, 2012 by rodheadlee

[mercyngrace]

I don't know how much he upgrades 'StayLDS' or if he has left it just for browsing. If the latter, it is defunct.

The main page is basically informational but the support forum board is active. There are some awesome people over there though there is a lot more lurking than posting so it's a slower moving conversation but it is an environment in which people can ask questions, express frustrations, and share their stories without being labeled or attacked. Of all the places I've posted online, this comes the closest to being worthy of the descriptor Christian. There's a lot of love unfeigned, gentleness, persuasion, and there are reproofs occasionally but they are never belittling or harsh and they are always followed up by an increase in love. The site hosts are breathtakingly patient.

Just recently some started a thread which was basically an attack on the site itself. There was an immediate piling on... of love and support for the guy throwing the stones! People listened carefully to what he was saying about the board, valued his right to his opinion, gently helped him see that his perspective might have been rooted in a different understanding of the purpose of the board. So far as I can tell, in spite of his page long condemnation which both started and threatened to end his participation on the board, he is still there. And, if I recall cwald's posts last week, it was this very thread that inspired him to go back to church and give attendance another try.

Caring enough about people to actually engage them where they are and love them in spite of differences is a difficult ministry but Brian, Ray, Heber13, and Orson particularly are dedicated to what they do. They are compassionate, perhaps because of their own struggles, and frankly, interactions with them make you want to believe, and be more Christlike, a fact evidenced by the level of genuine mutual respect and charity that pervades nearly all conversations. Those who no longer believe speak without rancor. Those who firmly believe speak without condescension. It really is, as billed, a place to go for "support".

[selek1]

Remind me not to use this analogy again, with a bunch of sailors on board!

One more nautical analogy (just to rub saltwater in the wound )...

All I was trying to say was that sometimes things do catch us by surprise, through no fault of our own...and we are simply unprepared for the fallout it brings. (yes, yes, I know all about the ten virgins and their lamps...but still, even if your lamp is full, you can trip and spill it, right?) . Sometimes, things do catch us unaware and we have to muddle through as best we can.

It is not uncommon for lubbers, lands-men, and junior sailors to exaggerate their fears in a storm and assume the vessel is in danger of foundering just because the seas are tossed and stormy. As the senior and most experienced seaman aboard the vessel, that the Captain has seen real storms and real danger- and knows how to differentiate between a mere squall and real danger.

Less experienced hands frequently lack faith in the seaworthiness and sturdiness of their vessel, and are prepared to abandon the vessel far earlier than true experience and/or prudence would suggest.

When a ship is in a bad sea way, the crew trust their captain to gauge the severity of the crisis, and to guide the vessel safely through the storm.

When our testimonies are being challenged, we should do no less.

Edited June 30, 2012 by selek1

[Teancum]

I think that in the beginning of his podcasts, John did help many people stay in the church. He handled tough issues by getting 'experts' in the field that he was discussing. But I also think that his podcasts in the early days were also designed to get himself to stay in the church. But now I am not sure if this is the case. I don't think that his podcasts are designed to get people to stay in the church because John himself has moved on from that position: he doesn't need answers to stay in the church. And his podcasts may now be a reflection of his new understandings.

In the past year Dehlin has had Brant Gardner, Teryl Givens, Dan Peterson and other active thinking LDS that presented well thought our approaches to their Church experience. So I think I very much disagree with you. I found the Givens interview very helpful for me.

[yootaw]

The Captain is responsible for studying the weather with all the tools available from weatherfax to GRIB files to old sailor's sayings (red sky at night sailor's delight, red sky at morn sailor be warned, it only works in the tradewinds. where the weather is moving from east to west) watching the barometer every 15 minutes. A good captain will be rested and have the sails reefed before ther storm overtakes him.There are very few freak storms.

So how do you prepare for and prevent a 'crisis of faith' storm? Again, I will only speak from personal experience. My crisis of faith came only after starting to study more seriously, and more in depth than I had previously. It started with doubts stemming from Old Testament passages and grew from there. I've had many people tell me that I relied too much on studying, not enough on the spirit. For me, this seems to contradict the instruction from D&C 9: 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ^astudy it out in your ^bmind; then you must ^cask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your ^dbosom shall ^eburn within you; therefore, you shall ^ffeel that it is right.

I've come to the conclusion that for me, my spiritual path leads away from a traditional view of mormonism. Am I wrong? I don't think that is for any to say but me. I am the captain of this ship. I chose for a time to fight the storm and try to maintain my heading, but ended up battered and bruised.

Accepting that my spiritual path may lead me away from traditional mormonism was one of the most difficult things that I have done. I felt real sorrow, real loss. I felt betrayed by an organization that I had devoted much of my life to. Again, I acknowledge that John is not for everyone. But he absolutely helped me through this transition.

[CASteinman]

I am the captain of this ship.

Reminds me of this response to Invictus.

Art thou in truth? Then what of him

Who bought thee with his blood?

Who plunged into devouring seas

And snatched thee from the flood?

Who bore for all our fallen race

What none but him could bear. –

The God who died that man might live,

And endless glory share?

Of what avail thy vaunted strength,

Apart from his vast might?

Pray that his Light may pierce the gloom,

That thou mayest see aright.

Men are as bubbles on the wave,

As leaves upon the tree.

Thou, captain of thy soul, forsooth

Who gave that place to thee?

Free will is thine -- free agency

To wield for right or wrong;

But thou must answer unto him

To whom all souls belong.

Bend to the dust that head "unbowed,"

Small part of Life's great whole!

And see in him, and him alone,

The Captain of thy soul.

--- Orson F. Whitney.

[CASteinman]

Again, I will only speak from personal experience. My crisis of faith came only after starting to study more seriously, and more in depth than I had previously. It started with doubts stemming from Old Testament passages and grew from there.

In my limited but not unsubstantial experience, more crises of faith and apostasy among previously "faithful" people emerge out of bibliolatry (Logolatry or Lexiolatry) than almost any other single source. Such sins dominate Protestantism but are not entirely excluded from Mormonism.

Edited June 30, 2012 by CASteinman

[Deborah]

In 1856 Brigham Young gave a sermon directed at the women of the church to stop their whining about their husbands and their marriages (apparently he was hearing a lot of whining). He therefore gave them a choice to either decide to get with the program and support their husbands and stop whining or he would give them an opportunity to leave their husbands and take their children with them with the husbands still providing their support.

Many were complaining they weren't as happy as they thought they should be and he told them "What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here—[laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then." He then added "Then you can go to work and magnify your callings; and you can do the best you know how; and on that ground I will promise you salvation, but upon no other principle." (JD 4:57

I wonder what he would say to all the whiners today.

[CASteinman]

In 1856 Brigham Young gave a sermon directed at the women of the church to stop their whining about their husbands and their marriages (apparently he was hearing a lot of whining). He therefore gave them a choice to either decide to get with the program and support their husbands and stop whining or he would give them an opportunity to leave their husbands and take their children with them with the husbands still providing their support.

Many were complaining they weren't as happy as they thought they should be and he told them "What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here—[laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then." He then added "Then you can go to work and magnify your callings; and you can do the best you know how; and on that ground I will promise you salvation, but upon no other principle." (JD 4:57

I wonder what he would say to all the whiners today.

Reminds me of a story... don't know if it is true, but I think it was told to me as true ... that a wife came to Brigham Young crying about how her husband had told her to "Go to Hell" and how hurtful that was. Brigham Young supposedly said "There now, you just fool him and don't go!"

Of course some people will notice how unfeeling and rude BY was there. But that was not how I saw it.

[selek1]

I wonder what he would say to all the whiners today.

I wonder what J. Golden Kimball would say to them...

[Senator]

In 1856 Brigham Young gave a sermon directed at the women of the church to stop their whining about their husbands and their marriages (apparently he was hearing a lot of whining). He therefore gave them a choice to either decide to get with the program and support their husbands and stop whining or he would give them an opportunity to leave their husbands and take their children with them with the husbands still providing their support.

Many were complaining they weren't as happy as they thought they should be and he told them "What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here—[laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then." He then added "Then you can go to work and magnify your callings; and you can do the best you know how; and on that ground I will promise you salvation, but upon no other principle." (JD 4:57

I wonder what he would say to all the whiners today.

Hmm...yes one can only guess.

One could also guess at what the current Prophet of God would say. And my bet is that his remarks wouldn't directed primarily to the women!