why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Can't I just HOPE that the church is true, and that JS was a prophet? Why do I have to "believe" something, to stay, when I don't?Yes, I am angry. That is why I went to John Dehlins StayLDS website to begin with....because I can't have the conversation at church or with family, and as I found out recently, even here.I think that hope is fine. But critics can destroy hope and cast doubt. That is their job and why they do what they do. I received a witness that the book of mormon is true. Without that witness, I may be history. Now i am not the best member of the lds church. And I am a sinner for sure. But I can't deny that witness and so, here I am defending the church against the critics as I do on the other board. I am not sure that hope would do it. But then again, what is the difference between faith and hope? Maybe not much.
CASteinman Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Myself, my wife, and my three teenage kids have not "already left." Still looking for reasons to stay and be involved. Thanks John Dehlin, for at least trying to understand the issues of those who doubt.I am glad you have not left. But I was not talking about you. I was talking about the people who have left already. Lots of people try to understand the issues of those who doubt. Despite this, those who doubt sometimes don't feel understood. I don't know what to say about that. It does not seem to be the fault of those who try -- at least to me. Edited June 29, 2012 by CASteinman
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I think our church does so many things so masterfully (which is why people have such a hard time leaving). But I think this is one area in which we need some reform and I think the leadership is making headway. We had a member leave and turn into an active anti-Mormon. The last time I sat through the sin and pride lesson, I couldn't help but wonder how many times he listened to that before he bolted.Did you raise you hand in class and make a comment? If not, why not? All members who know better should raise their hands and make comments or statements about what they know from personal experience or we are guilty of talking the talk but not walking the walk.
juliann Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Can't I just HOPE that the church is true, and that JS was a prophet? Why do I have to "believe" something, to stay, when I don't?Yes, I am angry. That is why I went to John Dehlins StayLDS website to begin with....because I can't have the conversation at church or with family, and as I found out recently, even here.Actually, you can. I gave a talk and included that I what I actually "KNOW" is very limited. In the church it all has to do with trust. If you haven't built a big deposit of that, however, your options will be more limited. I have found that when I "admit" things, it is actually appreciated by an awful lot of people but I've been around a long time and they have seen I'm not going anywhere even though I engage in secular religious scholarship and other sometimes scary stuff. 1
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I am glad you have not left. But I was not talking about you. I was talking about the people who have left already. Lots of people try to understand the issues of those who doubt. Despite this, those who doubt sometimes don't feel understood. I don't know what to say about that. It does not seem to be the fault of those who try -- at least to me.I think that his problem is that his relatives think that he sinned and this is why he is in his situation. Which of course is not true.
cwald Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Well, cwald it is up to you to clarify it with them. You just need to say. Mom, dad, bishop, friends, I have not sinned but I am a sinner but the reasons for my doubts come not from sin but from historical issues in the lds church that I am trying to deal with. And then explain. And if they don't listen to you...well...so what. You know better. And carry on.Yeah. Tried that. It didn't work. They (family) accused me of being a wolf in sheep clothing, called my SP 700 miles away, pushed for church discipline, and got me "banned" from holding any church calling. I was an EQP at the time. the poor BP...the guy still calls me to callings, can't get ahold of it or understand why the stake is doing this.I think there is a very real need for the work John Dehlin is doing
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Actually, you can. I gave a talk and included that I what I actually "KNOW" is very limited. In the church it all has to do with trust. If you haven't built a big deposit of that, however, your options will be more limited. I have found that when I "admit" things, it is actually appreciated by an awful lot of people but I've been around a long time and they have seen I'm not going anywhere even though I engage in secular religious scholarship and other sometimes scary stuff.I would think that you are the ace in the ward. If you were in my ward, I would be using you all the time in my class. You are an asset to any ward. Nothing scary about you at all.
CASteinman Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Can't I just HOPE that the church is true, and that JS was a prophet? Of course you can! While it is not sufficient to merely hope to achieve all of the discipleship that Jesus has talked about, it is sufficient to be in a position to receive the Grace of God. Why do I have to "believe" something, to stay, when I don't?If someone has told you that you must believe to stay a member of the Church they have been teaching you false doctrine. Do not believe it.Yes, I am angry. That is why I went to John Dehlins StayLDS website to begin with....because I can't have the conversation at church or with family, and as I found out recently, even here.Anger will not help you.
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 It didn't work. They (family) accused me of being a wolf in sheep clothing, called my SP 700 miles away, pushed for church discipline, and got me "banned" from holding any church calling. That is too bad. Now you just need to prove them wrong. And get the last laugh. I don't think that you are a wolf at all. Just a guy who had a bad break with his extended family. But your wife knows the truth and that is what is important. Misunderstanding will happen but by your actions you will prove that you have been wronged by loved ones.
CASteinman Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I think that his problem is that his relatives think that he sinned and this is why he is in his situation. Which of course is not true.Well, I don't know anything about his sins. Its not my business. It is possible that his relatives also do not know anything about his sins. But that is also not my business. I cannot judge anyone in this matter and I don't feel anyone here should.
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 If someone has told you that you must believe to stay a member of the Church they have been teaching you false doctrine. Do not believe it.It is not an easy church to be in if one does not believe. Callings, talks, home teaching etc. Much time is needed. And then if that person is scanning antimormon boards, well, it can be very difficult to remain. However, I do believe that if one has an open heart and soul, one can stay in and have hope that the spirit will give a confirmation. Or the person will gain a new insight and believe again.I am not referring to you cwald in this post but people in general.
cwald Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I appreciate the kind repsonses. I will think about it.And thank you Why Me...I know I am "black balled" over here. You are taking a risk just having a conversation with me.Later.
CASteinman Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 They (family) accused me of being a wolf in sheep clothing, called my SP 700 miles away, pushed for church discipline, and got me "banned" from holding any church calling. I was an EQP at the time. Maybe you could exercise a bit of charity and humility -- even if you feel others have not -- and ask yourself "What have I done that would lead people to believe such things about me?"There might be some things, you know. Anger might be a natural response, but the non-natural response might be more holy and edifying.
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Well, I don't know anything about his sins. Its not my business. It is possible that his relatives also do not know anything about his sins. But that is also not my business. I cannot judge anyone in this matter and I don't feel anyone here should.But his relatives jumped on the sin aspect of it. We all sin but this is not his problem with his feelings toward the lds church. The problem is elsewhere. But his relatives don't get it.
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I appreciate the kind repsonses. I will think about it.And thank you Why Me...I know I am "black balled" over here. You are taking a risk just having a conversation with me.Later.You are not black balled at all. In fact just the opposite. Like I said, with time, you will do fine here and you are now. I think that your tone is different. Tacenda is a good teacher. You remind me of reelmormon who just changed his screen name to DBmormon. And he is doing fine too.
juliann Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Did you raise you hand in class and make a comment? If not, why not? All members who know better should raise their hands and make comments or statements about what they know from personal experience or we are guilty of talking the talk but not walking the walk.That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that we label people who are questioning as pride filled sinners (and I'm not talking about committed career apostates). But I do object and did. A former bishop who was the first to start in on the pride/sin meme came up to me afterward and said that, actually, the only apostate he had experience with had first come to him with questions not sin. (This guy ended up being a real jerk, however, like trying to get his Mormon kids to taste wine at the dinner table which is why we need a better method to prevent it getting to that).I have this funny rule that keeps me sane. When I go to church, I don't want any message board stuff. I want to learn about me not rail about "them". I don't allow the demonization of Democrats, apostates, or even "the world". I went to the bishop once after a particularly disgusting anti-Obama outburst and he has pretty much put a stop to this kind of stuff, even sitting in on lessons. So our ward has become a safe haven where this stuff is left at the door. Well, except for the lady who carries a collection of Ronald Reagan quotes and reads them to comment on the lessons. Edited June 29, 2012 by juliann 2
mercyngrace Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Can't I just HOPE that the church is true, and that JS was a prophet? Why do I have to "believe" something, to stay, when I don't?Yes, I am angry. That is why I went to John Dehlins StayLDS website to begin with....because I can't have the conversation at church or with family, and as I found out recently, even here.D&C 46, cwald. To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.Not every one is going to know. Some, likely most (imo), will believe or hope. 2
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I don't think that john is much help. But what does help is to come to this board with an open heart and soul and have a conversation with the faithful board members in the social hall or here. But in this section the person may be misunderstood and posters may be a little frisky with the questioner until it becomes known that the person is truly seeking answers. But in the social hall people are more socially polite and docile. 1
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that we label people who are questioning as pride filled sinners (and I'm not talking about committed career apostates). But I do object and did. This is why you are an ace in your ward. Good to object and make comments to get others to think.
juliann Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Maybe you could exercise a bit of charity and humility -- even if you feel others have not -- and ask yourself "What have I done that would lead people to believe such things about me?"There might be some things, you know. Or there might not. My not Mormon mother-in-law (whom I never met) never spoke to my husband again because he refused to stop talking to his father after a divorce. Another in-law has a temple going father who divorced the mother and broke off contact with the kids. This stuff happens. Sometimes you just have to accept what fate has handed you and detach from those who are trying to cause harm. 1
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Well, except for the lady who carries a collection of Ronald Reagan quotes and reads them to comment on the lessons. Good luck with her. I would bring some early Karl Marx quotes to the lesson. Marx was a great humanist in his early days and said some wonderful things.
why me Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 Or there might not. My not Mormon mother-in-law (whom I never met) never spoke to my husband again because he refused to stop talking to his father after a divorce. Another in-law has a temple going father who divorced the mother and broke off contact with the kids. This stuff happens. Sometimes you just have to accept what fate has handed you and detach from those who are trying to cause harm.And learn not what to do from them. Life is certainly a learning experience and we learn from one another what to do and what not to do through observing examples.
Tacenda Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 I want a copy of Greg Smith's "hit piece."Oh, grow up, boy from Sand Lot, go back and get the ball behind the fence, that dog is harmless!! Just kidding ya, you make me laugh sometimes with your posts!
Tacenda Posted June 29, 2012 Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) You are not black balled at all. In fact just the opposite. Like I said, with time, you will do fine here and you are now. I think that your tone is different. Tacenda is a good teacher. You remind me of reelmormon who just changed his screen name to DBmormon. And he is doing fine too.Why Me you are so nice to say that I'd be a good teacher. That makes me feel like I need to be on my best behavior now. How in tune with the spirit is that, why me? A few days ago I thought I wouldn't last long on a board like this, but alot of love was shown and I'm hooked to the board and don't get anything done now. But it's therapy for me to converse with active members, (btw, I'm still active but haven't been in the last few weeks), and not feel too judged, thanks for that! But I do recall a GD lesson once that it's ok to judge if you are helping that person. So maybe I'll get judged down the road for a snarky comment I make, but hopefully we can all learn valuable lessons from one another. Edited June 29, 2012 by Tacenda 1
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