Kerry A. Shirts Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Can't I just HOPE that the church is true, and that JS was a prophet? Why do I have to "believe" something, to stay, when I don't?Yes, I am angry. That is why I went to John Dehlins StayLDS website to begin with....because I can't have the conversation at church or with family, and as I found out recently, even here.Interesting.......in my desires to seek out the best books of knowledge, and to do it the Joseph Smith, Brigham Young way of growing in intelligence and using reason, I too have come to know that I don't know. I think it is a pure brainwash technique actually to try and train these young kids to say I know the church is true. Seriously man just what CAN a 4 year old KNOW? They don't KNOW anything of the sort by any means. Even our testimonies are "coached" as to what a proper one includes and all that. It has become seriously difficult to defend that we are not a cult when we are acting like one.....I'm sorry, but I have studied how cults act with their members, always REPEATING THE SAME INFORMATION only using different words......COACHING them as to what is true and agreeing to what they are taught, and then lavishly praising them when they repeat it, etc. Man nothing is spontaneous, so how truly realistic is it? I used to think I KNEW, but on further reading, reasoning, and learning, I KNOW that I DON'T KNOW anything is true right now. Knowledge epistimologically is not so simply and cheaply bought or earned or learned. We are told it is very good to learn......oh, but NOT *THAT* stuff, here lets guide you into the PROPER realms of spiritual truth and knowledge......and we are given nothing but what we have already been taught for decades man......... and I agree, I haven't been able to talk this out, and when I try I am completely lambasted, wolf as sheep, apostate, etc. too.......... I actually DO KNOW where you are coming from........ the irony? I have been in apologetics for as long or longer than FAIR has existed (I helped FOUND it with Darryl Barksdale and our own beloved Juliann right here), and it has actually been one of the factors that has led me to learn that I really don't KNOW as much as I thought I did........ sooooooo.....well hey, this is the first time I have ever confessed this and I have had this for a few years now in my head and heart, and the more I TRY to read and strengthen my testimony with LDS pap, the WORSE it has gotten. Our church simply kicked nothing out worth reading any more.....EXCEPT FARMS........I mean it when I say they are truly the ONLY thing that has kept me in the game......This is a tough issue to work through. And NO I have absolutely NO INTENTION of trying to work it out with a bishop......UGH! Their trained as church leaders in pop psychology that is phony. I am not criticizing, I am observing.....I promise...... I have seen how the bishops handle things with friends and family I am acquainted with, so no thanks man....... that essentially leaves me on my own. IF I had been paying attention and had actually known what Dehlin was doing, I certainly would have trucked over there to check him out....... so anyway.......I mean, seriously, my home-teacher came over the other night, and as predictable as usual he had his nice little comforting message.........follow the spirit........ don't think, don't learn, FOLLOW.......let someone else do the thinking for you.......I mean I'm 51......enough already!
ERayR Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Interesting.......in my desires to seek out the best books of knowledge, and to do it the Joseph Smith, Brigham Young way of growing in intelligence and using reason, I too have come to know that I don't know. I think it is a pure brainwash technique actually to try and train these young kids to say I know the church is true. Seriously man just what CAN a 4 year old KNOW? They don't KNOW anything of the sort by any means. Even our testimonies are "coached" as to what a proper one includes and all that. It has become seriously difficult to defend that we are not a cult when we are acting like one.....I'm sorry, but I have studied how cults act with their members, always REPEATING THE SAME INFORMATION only using different words......COACHING them as to what is true and agreeing to what they are taught, and then lavishly praising them when they repeat it, etc. Man nothing is spontaneous, so how truly realistic is it? I used to think I KNEW, but on further reading, reasoning, and learning, I KNOW that I DON'T KNOW anything is true right now. Knowledge epistimologically is not so simply and cheaply bought or earned or learned.We are told it is very good to learn......oh, but NOT *THAT* stuff, here lets guide you into the PROPER realms of spiritual truth and knowledge......and we are given nothing but what we have already been taught for decades man......... and I agree, I haven't been able to talk this out, and when I try I am completely lambasted, wolf as sheep, apostate, etc. too.......... I actually DO KNOW where you are coming from........ the irony? I have been in apologetics for as long or longer than FAIR has existed (I helped FOUND it with Darryl Barksdale and our own beloved Juliann right here), and it has actually been one of the factors that has led me to learn that I really don't KNOW as much as I thought I did........ sooooooo.....well hey, this is the first time I have ever confessed this and I have had this for a few years now in my head and heart, and the more I TRY to read and strengthen my testimony with LDS pap, the WORSE it has gotten. Our church simply kicked nothing out worth reading any more.....EXCEPT FARMS........I mean it when I say they are truly the ONLY thing that has kept me in the game......This is a tough issue to work through. And NO I have absolutely NO INTENTION of trying to work it out with a bishop......UGH! Their trained as church leaders in pop psychology that is phony. I am not criticizing, I am observing.....I promise...... I have seen how the bishops handle things with friends and family I am acquainted with, so no thanks man....... that essentially leaves me on my own. IF I had been paying attention and had actually known what Dehlin was doing, I certainly would have trucked over there to check him out....... so anyway.......I mean, seriously, my home-teacher came over the other night, and as predictable as usual he had his nice little comforting message.........follow the spirit........ don't think, don't learn, FOLLOW.......let someone else do the thinking for you.......I mean I'm 51......enough already!With all due respect Kerry, Follow the Spirit does not mean don't think, don't learn.
CASteinman Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 I think some of this comes down to how threatening it can be for us when members leave the Church. It is the flip side of the same coin regarding how faith-confirming it can be when somebody joins the Church.I have never felt threatened when people have left the Church and I have even actively promoted that people should leave at times. (For instance, In one calling, I actively encouraged a reluctant Bishop to release from membership, scores of members who did not want to be members or who had crossed some stout lines). The resistance I have gotten in return has never seemed to me to be a matter of fear and as a threat. On the contrary, it was always a matter of concern for the 1 sheep vs the 90 and 9. Your impression may vary but my experience does not match yours.
CASteinman Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 I am not criticizing, I am observing....You are definitely criticizing.
Kerry A. Shirts Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 You are definitely criticizing.If it's true in my experience, it's observing, and I actually do KNOW what I have been going through and am going through.......
Kerry A. Shirts Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 With all due respect Kerry, Follow the Spirit does not mean don't think, don't learn.The way it's taught that is precisely what it means........ lets quit kidding ourselves shall we? I still believe in the church, but lets temper our apologetics to some form of semblance of reality. I know as an apologist what I will interpret follow the spirit to mean, and I know how it is taught in church, and the two paradigms are not equal, not by a long shot.....
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Mr. Shirts: I have definitely seen the things you're criticizing about Church culture, and they annoy me too. But I think that such things will only improve if folks like you stay in the game! I've learned a lot from your YouTube videos, for instance -- the series on Lady Wisdom and the one on the Cherubim referencing Eugene Seaich and Raphael Patai were particularly good, I thought. So rather than leave because of the watered-down manuals and the flaws of uninspired local leaders, I hope you'll stick around to continue to offer your perspective.I can't even count the number of names I've been called, both by members of the church and by critics, ranging from "Liberal Neo-Orthodox Cafeteria-Cultural-Mormon Apostate" to "Conservative Old-School True-Blue Brainwashed Cult-Member Sheep", and everything in between. If I was basing my membership on the names given to me by people accusing me of propounding whatever their favorite heresy is, I'd have left long ago. But that's not what it's about; it's about building a living community with the Covenants restored by the Revelations to Joseph Smith at the root. And if continuing Revelation is true, then that means that we still have things left to learn, and therefore we shouldn't expect perfection from people who are still making their way through the refiner's fire the same as we all are.I realize it's probably a tired argument by now, but when I get frustrated with the cultural nonsense or whatever, I turn back to the D&C, which was "given unto [God's] servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding. And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; and inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed; and inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent; and inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time."Not exactly a ringing endorsement of perpetual infallibility, y'know? There's room for doubts and questions in the Church; "as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith." If I make a declaration at all when I'm bearing my testimony, I usually say "I believe" rather than give the "I know" which is so often seen as culturally necessary; mostly it's about preserving a culture which retains some scrap of hope that everyone -- including non-members! -- will be Resurrected.That's what it's all about, in the end; I don't want anyone to die, and the book given to me by that ol' treasure-hunting seer-stone-usin' magician Joe Smith gives me hope that the Heavens aren't closed. Everything else, all the politics and wrangling, is just temporary and transient and fading away. 3
CASteinman Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 If it's true in my experience, it's observing, and I actually do KNOW what I have been going through and am going through.......Whether you are observing or not, you are absolutely criticizing. It seems your theme.
CASteinman Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 The way it's taught that is precisely what it means........ lets quit kidding ourselves shall we? Absolute total balderdash.
Teancum Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Dehlin hasn't accomplished anything. The doctrine of the Church has not really changed in many many decades. Sonia Johnson couldn't change it. Ed Decker couldn't change it. The Tanner's couldn't change it. The antiMormon evangelical movement has lost the battle (and they don't even know it). The homosexual lobby has failed to change it. Likewise, Dehlin will also fail to change it.I was not aware he was trying to change any doctrine. Examples please..
Kerry A. Shirts Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Whether you are observing or not, you are absolutely criticizing. It seems your theme.Well, after all, the brethren know best, I shall cease and desist criticizing. Who am I to know anything near what they do right? They are always the most spiritual and enlightened, so I bow down and humbly submit and obey as usual........but it still moves........ Edited June 30, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts
CASteinman Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 I shall cease and desist criticizing.Yet you have not stopped. Even with this post.Not helpful. Please stop.
Teancum Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Myself, my wife, and my three teenage kids have not "already left." Still looking for reasons to stay and be involved. Thanks John Dehlin, for at least trying to understand the issues of those who doubt.As I posted on another thread the irony for me in all this are the two people in the internet world who have helped me stay active LDS and navigate my NOMness are Dan Peterson and John Dehlin. Both have been very supportive of where I am at and always willing to help. 1
Teancum Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 The way it's taught that is precisely what it means........ lets quit kidding ourselves shall we? I still believe in the church, but lets temper our apologetics to some form of semblance of reality. I know as an apologist what I will interpret follow the spirit to mean, and I know how it is taught in church, and the two paradigms are not equal, not by a long shot.....Kerry I thought your long post above was spot on. Well said!
Libs Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) As I posted on another thread the irony for me in all this are the two people in the internet world who have helped me stay active LDS and navigate my NOMness are Dan Peterson and John Dehlin. Both have been very supportive of where I am at and always willing to help.That's interesting, because these are the two people that I have been most interested in listening to, as well. That's why I didn't really want to take sides in the recent fiasco at Maxwell Institute. Edited June 30, 2012 by Libs 1
Deborah Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 There are many good people who are not active and yet, good people. I also consider the witnesses to be good people although some were inactive, some left the church too.My mom was one who was totally inactive but always spoke positively of the church. She saw the good that it did. Her reasons for inactivity had nothing to do with disbelief but matters in her past she couldn't deal with.
Nevo Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) ...... that essentially leaves me on my own. IF I had been paying attention and had actually known what Dehlin was doing, I certainly would have trucked over there to check him out.Hi Kerry,Checking out some of Dehlin's podcasts isn't a bad idea actually. I don't care much for Dehlin himself, but I've enjoyed a number of the podcasts over the years. I particularly recommend his five-part interview with Terryl Givens. Givens embodies a thoughtful, mature faith and has some good insights. You can find the interview here. Edited June 30, 2012 by Nevo
cwald Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Dehlin has done a number of faith promoting podcasts. His series with Bushman were my favorite.
rodheadlee Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) You are waxing very poetic, Mr. Englund, but I'm left wondering how a "captain" could be blamed for a storm that overturned his ship? Poor navigating, perhaps? Or perhaps it was a freak storm that came suddenly upon him. That's kind of how I felt about certain information about Mormonism. Then, all you can do is try and deal with the "storm", as best you can.The Captain is responsible for studying the weather with all the tools available from weatherfax to GRIB files to old sailor's sayings (red sky at night sailor's delight, red sky at morn sailor be warned, it only works in the tradewinds. where the weather is moving from east to west) watching the barometer every 15 minutes. A good captain will be rested and have the sails reefed before ther storm overtakes him.There are very few freak storms. Edited June 30, 2012 by rodheadlee 1
why me Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 As I posted on another thread the irony for me in all this are the two people in the internet world who have helped me stay active LDS and navigate my NOMness are Dan Peterson and John Dehlin. Both have been very supportive of where I am at and always willing to help.I think that in the beginning of his podcasts, John did help many people stay in the church. He handled tough issues by getting 'experts' in the field that he was discussing. But I also think that his podcasts in the early days were also designed to get himself to stay in the church. But now I am not sure if this is the case. I don't think that his podcasts are designed to get people to stay in the church because John himself has moved on from that position: he doesn't need answers to stay in the church. And his podcasts may now be a reflection of his new understandings.
why me Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Dehlin has done a number of faith promoting podcasts. His series with Bushman were my favorite.And this was in the first stage of his podcasts when he himself was attempting to find answers to his own questions. Mainly to stay lds. But now? I am not so sure that he conducts his podcasts to stay in the lds church.
cwald Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Yeah. You may be right.He no longer runs the StayLDS website...but he did mentioned it as a resource for thise who doubt, in this last podcast this week.I don't know. Edited June 30, 2012 by cwald
Libs Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 The Captain is responsible for studying the weather with all the tools available from weatherfax to GRIB files to old sailor's sayings (red sky at night sailor's delight, red sky at morn sailor be warned, it only works in the tradewinds. where the weather is moving from east to west) watching the barometer every 15 minutes. A good captain will be rested and have the sails reefed before ther storm overtakes him.There are very few freak storms.Remind me not to use this analogy again, with a bunch of sailors on board!All I was trying to say was that sometimes things do catch us by surprise, through no fault of our own...and we are simply unprepared for the fallout it brings. (yes, yes, I know all about the ten virgins and their lamps...but still, even if your lamp is full, you can trip and spill it, right?) . Sometimes, things do catch us unaware and we have to muddle through as best we can.
why me Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) Yeah. You may be right.He no longer runs the StayLDS website...but he did mentioned it as a resource for thise who doubt, in this last podcast this week.I don't know.Of course, it is good politics for him to mention that website, even though it may be more or less defunct. I enjoyed his Blacks and the Priesthood podcast. And if you listen to it, it seems that he is attempting to find his own answers through his questions. And I think that it why his first stage of podcasts were successful and helpful to many members. But now...I think his podcasts are different, with a different objective. Sadly, since the article was squashed by him, we may never get to read what Greg wrote so we can make an intelligent judgement about John.But it is strange that someone who calls for more openness in the church would squash a piece about himself. Does he have something to hide? Edited June 30, 2012 by why me
cwald Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Yes. As a "Dehlinite" as us NOMs are sometimes called...I think john made a mistake.I've been very upfront....this wolves and JD issue is what brought me here.
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