John Dehlin...Giant Killer

[John Ping Pong]

Wow as one of those aged adults and a regular church attender I guess I am just one of the lucky ones who attends classes that teach the same principles but on an adult level. The discussion level gets quite interesting at times.

I expect such an event can be possible, ERayR.

It is also possible Spencer Kimball really never attended a boring sacrament meeting.

(But I have my doubts.)

[Tacenda]

Comments like this are exactly why a support group for those who question is needed. People who question are regularly suspected of engaging in sin or using using intellectual reasons to cover for misbehavior.

As far as I can tell I haven't gone out of my way to sin, of course everyone is a sinner. In fact I feel more love toward my neighbors, inactive/non LDS especially, (though there aren't that many around me) than ever before. I'm more likely to feel a comfort level of gaining friendship with a non LDS/inactive. Where before in the Mormon Corridor, all I ever had was LDS friends. And I was very polite to non LDS/inactive but didn't go out of my way to befriend them. There was always this feeling that we weren't on equal playing fields, subconsciously speaking. Which in my mind isn't what the "loving your neighbor" thing is supposed to be. I think I judged without knowing it. Oh, they have a tank top and shorts, they smoke or drink. Things like that mentality that set me apart and I didn't really act like I would, around my TBM neighbors. So in my heart I think I sinned before having my crisis of faith, by excluding some people. I'm not saying that's how all TBM's behave, just my puny shallow self, so please don't jump down my throat, any of you, for sayin it,lol.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Tacenda

[Somebodyz]

As far as I can tell there are Mormons in good standing who don't go to the temple and don't have a recommend. There are Mormons on the books who just don't attend church at all (well maybe every 2 years or so), others who smoke and drink and maybe even cuss a bit. Some wear beards and some don't. ...

I didn't think we'd met.

[wenglund]

I do still believe in and follow Jesus Christ, btw...to the best of my ability.

I can tell. Your posts tend to have a Christ-like goodness about them. In my mind, you have the important things covered.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

"In later years, I saw a few leave the Church who could then never leave it alone. They used often their intellectual reservations to cover their behavioral lapses"

Neal A. Maxwell

http://www.lds.org/g...hath-been?lang=

Again this is why a support group for those who question or leave is needed.

Would that be a support group for people who may mistake comments made about "a few" as applying more generally to them?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited June 29, 2012 by wenglund

[GreyHat]

Would that be a support group for people who may mistakes comments made about "a few" as applying more generally to them?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You know damn well it is prevalent in the culture of the church to attribute apostasy to sin, and I have provided an example of apostle doing just that. I was originally replying to a poster that was doing the very same.

[wenglund]

You know damn well it is prevalent in the culture of the church to attribute apostasy to sin, and I have provided an example of apostle doing just that. I was originally replying to a poster that was doing the very same.

Instead of a support group, may I suggest you take a course in anger and emotional management--preferably with a counselor schooled in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. You are coming across as overly sensitive, which seems to be distorting how you interpret others have reasonably said.

Either way, this is probably not the best place to play the victim card since most of the people posting here are strong believers in personal empowerment and responsibility. We care more about helping you improve yourself and doing what is in your best interest than stifling you with misguided validations and debilitating warm-and-fuzzies.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited June 29, 2012 by wenglund

[GreyHat]

Instead of a support group, may I suggest you take a course in anger and emotional management--preferably with a counselor schooled in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. You are coming across as overly sensitive, which seems to be distorting how you interpret others have reasonably said.

Either way, this is probably not the best place to play the victim card since most of the people posting here are strong believers in personal empowerment and responsibility. We care more about helping you improve yourself and doing what is in your best interest than stifling you with misguided validations and debilitating warm-and-fuzzies.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You completely failed to address my concern at all, instead you made it all about me. Classic apologetics.

[GreyHat]

I think Wade you've unwittingly demonstrated my point. It's all about shifting the blame to the individual.

We get prissy about cursing, you (and Wade) have been escorted out of the thread.

[CASteinman]

"In later years, I saw a few leave the Church who could then never leave it alone. They used often their intellectual reservations to cover their behavioral lapses"

Neal A. Maxwell

http://www.lds.org/g...hath-been?lang=

Again this is why a support group for those who question or leave is needed.

Oh, you mean a support group for those who have already left. Ah yes. Such people do need comforted any way possible I suppose.

[CASteinman]

He may also enjoy the attention his podcasts generate.

Possible. I almost could enjoy them except that they are sometimes interminably long.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Dehlin hasn't accomplished anything. The doctrine of the Church has not really changed in many many decades. Sonia Johnson couldn't change it. Ed Decker couldn't change it. The Tanner's couldn't change it. The antiMormon evangelical movement has lost the battle (and they don't even know it). The homosexual lobby has failed to change it. Likewise, Dehlin will also fail to change it.

Donnot forget Aaron ans RussB...with their Video cameras each night at Temple Square.

[ERayR]

I expect such an event can be possible, ERayR.

It is also possible Spencer Kimball really never attended a boring sacrament meeting.

(But I have my doubts.)

And it is also that your boredom comes from your own attitude.

[cwald]

Oh, you mean a support group for those who have already left. Ah yes. Such people do need comforted any way possible I suppose.

Myself, my wife, and my three teenage kids have not "already left." Still looking for reasons to stay and be involved. Thanks John Dehlin, for at least trying to understand the issues of those who doubt.

[ERayR]

You know damn well it is prevalent in the culture of the church to attribute apostasy to sin, and I have provided an example of apostle doing just that. I was originally replying to a poster that was doing the very same.

No I don't know that it is prevelent in the culture of the church. My 60 + years in the church do not bear out your observations.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Myself, my wife, and my three teenage kids have not "already left." Still looking for reasons to stay and be involved. Thanks John Dehlin, for at least trying to understand the issues of those who doubt.

Without doubt there can be no belief. I have many doubts, but my beliefs outnumber them.

[why me]

Comments like this are exactly why a support group for those who question is needed. People who question are regularly suspected of engaging in sin or using using intellectual reasons to cover for misbehavior.

I don't think that this is true at all. But I do know that exmormons and wishywashy mormons may claim this. And it is not their fault for doing so. It just becomes something that is repeated over and over again in those circles. I believe that members are slow to judge these days. Why? Because most families seem to be having problems with relatives, children etc. about church related things.

Why is a support group needed? Because people like to congregate in groups these days that tend to back up their new world view. People have been leaving the church since it began and NOMS have been around also since the church began. But there was no need to be a label on it perhaps because people didn't need to form groups...they didn't need to feel as if they belonged somewhere.

[ERayR]

Myself, my wife, and my three teenage kids have not "already left." Still looking for reasons to stay and be involved. Thanks John Dehlin, for at least trying to understand the issues of those who doubt.

For a reason to stay try this: Did you ever receive that spiritual witness that it was true. If you did then what can top that? In the end it has to be your decission. Just make sure it is not based on some critic's interpretation of events that have nothing to do with your salvation.

[juliann]

No I don't know that it is prevelent in the culture of the church. My 60 + years in the church do not bear out your observations.

There was a lesson on it in this year's GD class. I don't think any other reasons for leaving the church are even addressed. Well, except pride. That is usually the biggest one, actually. Sort of a chicken or egg thing interaction going on.

[why me]

Myself, my wife, and my three teenage kids have not "already left." Still looking for reasons to stay and be involved. Thanks John Dehlin, for at least trying to understand the issues of those who doubt.

But cwald here is my take on it. I don't think that John has helped you to stay at all. He seems to have made you rather angry judging by your posts somewhere else. And that is the point. John may not be bringing peace into the hearts of members who are questioning and listening to his podcasts. Maybe just the opposite.

If you don't believe that the church is true and that joseph was a prophet, there may be no reason to stay. It will all catch up on you eventually. However, if you believe that JS was a prophet and that the church is true, well, you should stay because you do have a testimony of the lds church. And ignore the members that bother you or work with them and show patience.

[cwald]

I don't think that this is true at all. But I do know that exmormons and wishywashy mormons may claim this. And it is not their fault for doing so. It just becomes something that is repeated over and over again in those circles. I believe that members are slow to judge these days. Why? Because most families seem to be having problems with relatives, children etc. about church related things.

Why is a support group needed? Because people like to congregate in groups these days that tend to back up their new world view. People have been leaving the church since it began and NOMS have been around also since the church began. But there was no need to be a label on it perhaps because people didn't need to form groups...they didn't need to feel as if they belonged somewhere.

it is a lonely path to walk when you don't feel like you can discuss your doubts and concerns with family members and church members and leadership, because of the percieved notion that those who doubt have "sinned" and/or could be wolves in sheep clothing.

[cwald]

But cwald here is my take on it. I don't think that John has helped you to stay at all. He seems to have made you rather angry judging by your posts somewhere else. And that is the point. John may not be bringing peace into the hearts of members who are questioning and listening to his podcasts. Maybe just the opposite.

If you don't believe that the church is true and that joseph was a prophet, there may be no reason to stay. It will all catch up on you eventually. However, if you believe that JS was a prophet and that the church is true, well, you should stay because you do have a testimony of the lds church. And ignore the members that bother you or work with them and show patience.

Can't I just HOPE that the church is true, and that JS was a prophet? Why do I have to "believe" something, to stay, when I don't?

Yes, I am angry. That is why I went to John Dehlins StayLDS website to begin with....because I can't have the conversation at church or with family, and as I found out recently, even here.

Edited June 29, 2012 by cwald

[why me]

You know damn well it is prevalent in the culture of the church to attribute apostasy to sin, and I have provided an example of apostle doing just that. I was originally replying to a poster that was doing the very same.

I think that members have experienced relatives leaving because of the internet. I don't think that these members are judged to have sinned. Rather they went to the internet, read critic attitudes and had a faith crisis and eventually left. I see no sin, just a loss of testimony. Now the lessons may teach sin or pride but the average members knows that there are other reasons for leaving usually with the Internet.

[why me]

it is a lonely path to walk when you don't feel like you can discuss your doubts and concerns with family members and church members and leadership, because of the percieved notion that those who doubt have "sinned" and/or could be wolves in sheep clothing.

Well, cwald it is up to you to clarify it with them. You just need to say. Mom, dad, bishop, friends, I have not sinned but I am a sinner but the reasons for my doubts come not from sin but from historical issues in the lds church that I am trying to deal with. And then explain. And if they don't listen to you...well...so what. You know better. And carry on.

[juliann]

it is a lonely path to walk when you don't feel like you can discuss your doubts and concerns with family members and church members and leadership, because of the percieved notion that those who doubt have "sinned" and/or could be wolves in sheep clothing.

I think our church does so many things so masterfully (which is why people have such a hard time leaving). But I think this is one area in which we need some reform and I think the leadership is making headway. We had a member leave and turn into an active anti-Mormon. The last time I sat through the sin and pride lesson, I couldn't help but wonder how many times he listened to that before he bolted.