A Very Refreshing Ensign Article...Cudos To The Church

[zerinus]

Number 2 is a problem as every ward I've ever attended (including the current ward my family attends) is filled with smug Mormons like you and BC. No thanks. It's not worth the headache.

I don't believe it. That is not typical of how Church members as a rule behave towards non-members or unbelievers, especially towards spouses of part-member families. I think you are projecting your own attitude towards them onto them. That is how you feel towards them, and you like think of them feeling that way towards you. It is like those who claim they are "shunned" by family members after leaving the Church, when it is in fact them who are distancing themselves from their own family members.

[Calm]

though I do my best to be a good liar for them.

'why do you have to lie about it? Why not just tell them you are going to support them and especially their mother, which is the truth.

[Calm]

There are many such untold stories in the LDS Church. I can think several such (and similar) examples in my home ward. They just haven't bothered to write and tell their stories for the Ensign.

My memory says I've read at least one other such article in the past year or two. Perhaps I will find it later.

There have been many over the years: http://www.lds.org/liahona/1989/03/partners-in-everything-but-the-church?lang=eng&query=unbelieving+spouse

I am wondering why C Paxton considers it a "big first".

Edited June 22, 2012 by calmoriah

[Spammer]

i havent done a single thing to keep you out of the Church. All I've asked is if you really believe God is going to be alright with you making your choices based on what others do or what you perceive others to do.

Not you personally, but comments like BC's or like your "So when you are standing before the Eternal Judge, you are going to tell Him the reason you forsook your responsibilities and covenants was because of someone else" do keep me away. Frankly, since I'm an apostate anytime I hear church members talk about apostates is extremely annoying. Just as annoying as it would be for you to go to mass every Sunday at a relative's request and more often than not hear the priest find a way to work the subject of Mormons and their delusion into his homily. Tell me that wouldn't get very old very quickly.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Spammer

[Spammer]

Life is difficult; marriages are difficult; being a good father is difficult. My mother died of cancer many years ago. My older, divorced sister was recently dismissed from her job and she chose to take her children and move into mom's home. In doing so, she made it clear that she chose to do so because she felt that she was needed. The truth is that she was needed and all of our siblings appreciated her decision at first. However, it was not long before she made it clear that she was sacrificing her entire life to take care of our mother. Every effort was given in a spirit of obligation; all charity had been abandoned. Of course mom regretted every time she needed assistance, or call for aid, and felt very much like a burden.

Perspective, tone, spirit, attitude these reveal the condition of our heart. Of course your boys can see where your heart is and how you might (or might not) be doing with grudgingly. Of course they will reflect your own attitudes. When we treat what others highly value with disrespect, what is the impact on the relationship? This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with your own happiness and the quality of your familial relationships. We can be apostates, we can totally reject the entire message or idea of there being a God, and yet we can treat it will deep respect and that respect will be seen in our attitude and our actions.

You may want to reconsider the quality of your support. We create our own hell. You can also create a truly supportive situation that is honest and full of integrity on your part; it really has to do with the condition of your own heart and what you really value most. Be wise in your your choices; in this situation they will have far ranging consequences that you do not begin to understand at this stage.

I don't treat the church disrespectfully at home. To the contrary. When they protest about going, I stand there with my wife and tell them that their friends are there, it's important, etc. At most, my boys probably see the fact that I don't smile much on Sundays and hang out in the foyer after sacrament meeting. Believe me, I wish I enjoyed going to church. Sunday actually might be nice.

[Spammer]

I don't believe it. That is not typical of how Church members as a rule behave towards non-members or unbelievers, especially towards spouses of part-member families. I think you are projecting your own attitude towards them onto them. That is how you feel towards them, and you like think of them feeling that way towards you. It is like those who claim they are "shunned" by family members after leaving the Church, when it is in fact them who are distancing themselves from their own family members.

Poppycock. You equate belief and church activity with love and respect for others. Belief is just belief. It has nothing to do with an emotional state underlying a relationship. My parents can suddenly believe the earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese and my feelings for them won't change a whit. When I called my dad years ago to tell him, in tears, that I no longer believed in the church, he said "If you no longer believe, I don't know if our relationship will ever be the same." That's pure emotional blackmail and shunning. The shunning is implied, through a qualitiative change in the relationship. It happens because the love extended is made conditional on continued belief and church activity. When it came time to tell the in-laws, my sister in law told me to my face "I guess you don't like us anymore then. Don't worry, we'll stay away from you," saying that as she pulled her kids to her. All I did was announce that I no longer believed in the church, that's it. That was the first thing out of her mouth two seconds later.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Spammer

[Spammer]

'why do you have to lie about it? Why not just tell them you are going to support them and especially their mother, which is the truth.

I lie when I say "church is great, there's so much of value there". I don't believe it but I say it to them to encourage them to buck up and go. They also don't know that I'm no longer a member. So there's a covert lie for you.

[Spammer]

I don't believe it. That is not typical of how Church members as a rule behave towards non-members or unbelievers, especially towards spouses of part-member families. I think you are projecting your own attitude towards them onto them. That is how you feel towards them, and you like think of them feeling that way towards you.

The issue here isn't behavior, it's the way mormons talk in church about doubters and apostates - which is the point of the Ensign article. If you haven't heard church members talk like BC about how the only reason apostates apostasize is because they are offended or they want to sin, then you're wearing blinders and have too much wax in your ears. Similarly, the claptrap members spew about those who fail to gain a testimony (they weren't sincere, they lacked faith, they have hidden sin, they weren't listening when the spirit whispered) is similarly annoying and obnoxious to people like me. As I said, if that kind of talk disappeared and people just focused on loving God and loving your neighbor it would make it much easier for me to want to go to church.

[Calm]

Isn't there something you can focus on that you do like about church. For awhile there, due to social anxiety issues, there was little of value and much of harm in me going to church. I identified two things I still enjoyed and valued, the sacrament and the hymns and went for those and left afterwards and walked home (this was when we lived at BYU, our church was across campus so I had an enjoyable work when the weather was decent). When I was asked, I was clear about why I wasn't attending all the meetings but emphasized what I found of value and how much value that was for me. I never got any negative feedback about it though I suspect some were thinking I might be on the way out.

I just think it is better to be truly positive about even one small thing than to play games. Kids are smart and won't admire you for doing so or your wife if they think she's put you in that situation. Why not simply say something along the lines of 'it is important for me to be with you and it is important for your mom to be at church so it is important for me to be here as well, I can show your mom and you I love her and you by supporting her efforts to go to church as a family." Does anything else need to be said on top of that?

[DBMormon]

The direct context of D&C 58:15 seems to be the Church. For my part, there is no distinction whatsoever in general and I think the doctrine of the Church (only true, etc.) bears that out.

equating unbelief with sin right to the strugglers face....ouch

Sorry but a church leader(15 at the top)... today would never say that.

Edited June 22, 2012 by DBMormon

[theplains]

My congratulations to the church. I think this is a big first of what I hope is many steps. I particularly appreciated that the article didn't throw the apostate husband under the bus by using desire to sin or being offended as reasons for his disaffection. Surprise, he merely lost his belief.

http://www.lds.org/e...opped-believing

From what I read in Doctrines of Salvation, this lady has lost her blessing of exaltation if she is not able to regain

her current husband. But she can swap with a new husband when the former causes a sealing to break (volume 2,

page 65).

"No one can be deprived of exaltation who remains faithful. In other words, an undeserving husband cannot prevent

a faithful wife from an exaltation and vice versa. In this case the faithful servant would be given to someone who is

faithful"

Regards,

Jim

[rpn]

Not sure anyone who needs it will keep reading this thread to the end to find it, but there is a website specifically dedicated to helping people whose spouses/families have become disaffected from the church to preserve their marriage/families. You can find it at faceseast.org

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I would. And not just of the majority, but everyone in that situation without exception. Unbelief IS sin according to D&C 58:15. Now lest one complain that that's too easy, let me go a step further and say other sins lead to unbelief and there is no other path to unbelief but other sins both of omission and commission.

Now this doesn't take away anything from the great and doctrinal (because of official publication) article; it merely is what it is.

Also check out the context of apostasy that goes with the above reference:

Interesting opinion.

When I left the LDS Church I didn't cease to believe, I merely believe differently then the LDS version of the Restored Gospel.

[Lightbearer]

I'm glad to see such an article published in the Ensign. If only the remaining arrogant dinosaurs like BC would drop and fly off to their eternal reward, I just might return to attending church more regularly with my family. It's a pipe dream, I know.

Actually I am one of those dinosaurs that you hate. But not to worry you will not have to endure us much longer. When the Lord returns there will be a great separation between those who have their lamps trimmed and burning and those who have allowed theirs to grow cold and go out. You can't stamp out the kingdom of God as easily as you think, and I feel really sorry for you and your family. It is amazing how those who have hardened their hearts can see the "arrogance" in others who have the gall to believe in the restoration and yet cannot see their own bitter arrogance of unbelief. I suspect Jesus was one of those "arrogant dinosaurs" you have reference to:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (New Testament | Mark 16:16)

[Spammer]

Actually I am one of those dinosaurs that you hate. But not to worry you will not have to endure us much longer. When the Lord returns there will be a great separation between those who have their lamps trimmed and burning and those who have allowed theirs to grow cold and go out. You can't stamp out the kingdom of God as easily as you think, and I feel really sorry for you and your family. It is amazing how those who have hardened their hearts can see the "arrogance" in others who have the gall to believe in the restoration and yet cannot see their own bitter arrogance of unbelief. I suspect Jesus was one of those "arrogant dinosaurs" you have reference to:

No, not hate. I only wish certain church members would just shut up about apostates and people who "fail to gain a testimony". GD and Elder's Quorum would finally be bearable. I agree with the OP. The Ensign article was a breath of fresh air. If only the dinosaurs would take it to heart.

[zerinus]

My memory says I've read at least one other such article in the past year or two. Perhaps I will find it later.

There have been many over the years: http://www.lds.org/liahona/1989/03/partners-in-everything-but-the-church?lang=eng&query=unbelieving+spouse

I am wondering why C Paxton considers it a "big first".

There are at least three sisters in our ward whose husbands are not members, having never joined the Church, but who are supportive of their wives coming to Church, and even participate occasionally in some Church activities. Often they drive their wives to Church, and pick them up again, but they don't come in themselves!

There is one family whose story is very similar to the one in the Ensign article. They joined the Church some twelve to fourteen years ago. After several years of activity the husband became disaffected and stopped coming to Church. He became very embittered at first, and even asked his name to be removed. The bishop wisely refused, and told him that that would upset his wife and kids, and he wouldn't do it! His wife, however, remained very faithful, and continued to come to Church, and brought the children with her. They were a young family, and their children were not old at the time. After several years of disaffection, the husband began become interested in the Church again, mainly through the good example of his wife, and started coming back to the Church. After several years of returning to activity, and several callings, he has just been called to the bishopric. It all seemed a distant dream to his wife, during the days of his disaffection and inactivity. But she never lost hope, and eventually obtained the reward of her patient faithfulness. She says she prayed several times to know what to do. The Lord told her to be patient and remain very faithful, and it will work out in the end; and it did.

I am guessing there are many such untold stories in the Church which never make it to the Ensign.

Edited June 22, 2012 by zerinus

[zerinus]

duplicate

Edited June 22, 2012 by zerinus

[Spammer]

Isn't there something you can focus on that you do like about church. For awhile there, due to social anxiety issues, there was little of value and much of harm in me going to church. I identified two things I still enjoyed and valued, the sacrament and the hymns and went for those and left afterwards and walked home (this was when we lived at BYU, our church was across campus so I had an enjoyable work when the weather was decent). When I was asked, I was clear about why I wasn't attending all the meetings but emphasized what I found of value and how much value that was for me. I never got any negative feedback about it though I suspect some were thinking I might be on the way out.

I just think it is better to be truly positive about even one small thing than to play games. Kids are smart and won't admire you for doing so or your wife if they think she's put you in that situation. Why not simply say something along the lines of 'it is important for me to be with you and it is important for your mom to be at church so it is important for me to be here as well, I can show your mom and you I love her and you by supporting her efforts to go to church as a family." Does anything else need to be said on top of that?

There are positives, certainly. Most church members are very nice, no doubt about it, even after they inevitably become nonplussed when I persistently hang out on the couch in the foyer and tell them I haven't held a calling or taken the sacrament for 20 years. Why do I avoid GD and Elder's Quorum? I don't tell ward members this, but it's because that's where all of the dinosaurs do their thing. Sacrament meeting messages, although typically boring, are a lot better to sit through. I can always get something out of those, even if there's seldom anything I haven't heard a thousand times before.

[Damien the Leper]

Utter rot. Jesus (rather than the touchy-feely metrosexual all-thing-to-all-people-with-itching ears icon) is the Son of God, our Lord and Redeemer. He is our Advocate with the Father.

He is a specific individual, wholly God.

He is not "the embodiment of God's Church".

He has set forth and established his Church and given that organization specific guidelines to follow and to proclaim.

They are non-negotiable, and not subject to alteration at your whim or preference.

More neo-religious pseudo-mystical claptrap.

The Church is the specific organization established by Christ and administered by his servants.

It is true whether it is comprised of one man, or encompasses the whole of the Earth.

It exists as a separate, finite organization with specific guidelines and doctrines- not as some "catch-as-catch-can" "make-it-up-as-you-go" affinity.

You are either a part of Christ's Church or you are not.

You can either align youself with that Church or you can hare off after a chimera of your own making.

There is no third choice.

Your absolutistic theology reminds me of a certain MorningStar, who according to LDS theology, proposed an absolutistic method of redemption void of true agency and choice. The third option sounds so much better.

[Damien the Leper]

duplicate

Edited June 22, 2012 by Valentinus

[DBMormon]

From what I read in Doctrines of Salvation, this lady has lost her blessing of exaltation if she is not able to regain

her current husband. But she can swap with a new husband when the former causes a sealing to break (volume 2,

page 65).

Doctrines of Salvation - hmmmm author - Bruce R McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith..... One of my biggest pet peeves and the cause of so much critical discussion on the church is the taking of a church leaders opinion from his talk or book and making it the doctrine of the church. It is not.

Elder Christofferson - "

At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”5 President Clark, quoted earlier, observed:

“To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, I do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of [Johnston’s] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk. …"

You can keep doing it but the Doctrine of the church is a much smaller group of things then critic wish to place on us.... That is called a strawman and you have given a textbook example

Edited June 22, 2012 by DBMormon

[Craig Paxton]

Since you call this article the first of what you hope are many steps, what's your ultimate hope or expectation of where the steps will ultimately lead?

01. Love one another...even those who come to the conclusion that the church is not what it claims to be...agree to disagree but still love and accept that two people CAN look at the same material and come away with perfectly justifiable reasons for their respective conclusions.

02. A more open and honest discussion of the "other" reasons behind disaffection i.e. the known issues for disbelief and why active members chose disbelief over belief.

03.The church isn't perfect...we've made some mistakes along the way and we'd like to apologize for...X,Y,Z.

04. Better accomodation for gays who chose to remain believers...navagate a path for them.

05. Allow All family members to attend their own children/siblings weddings or IF this is too much...Allow for Civil Weddings to be followed immediantly by a temple wedding.

There's more but that any one of these would be a great second step...

Bottom line Bridge Building, Accomodation and a Larger Tent.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Craig Paxton

[Storm Rider]

No, not hate. I only wish certain church members would just shut up about apostates and people who "fail to gain a testimony". GD and Elder's Quorum would finally be bearable. I agree with the OP. The Ensign article was a breath of fresh air. If only the dinosaurs would take it to heart.

Some members should learn to curb their tongue. I, for one, can have a biting sarcasm and a more than irreverent attitude toward some things. Some members have their check list out and already know they are going to the Celestial Kingdom. Still others feel broken and overwhelmed with what they perceive are the required daily and weekly activities for a true LDS. LDS come in all types, colors, and sizes. If you look you will find examples of each kind in every ward; but that is the key, it is what you look for that counts.

The words are write may be rather trite, but they are nonetheless true. They are also far easier to write than to do. As couples we need to strive to understand why we do things; particularly the things we don't enjoy or even like. It is appreciating that look of our mate when we have really pleased them; they know our feelings and our small sacrifice for their benefit is deeply appreciated. It is not dishonest to love your wife so much that you sacrifice your dislike of certain types of members for her; this type of sacrifice is the very essence or foundation of a great marriage.

I understand and can truly empathize with many of your feelings; you are not alone. You will find many members in your ward that will also understand them. Seek out those members that can understand you and accept you as you are. Forget about the rest or at least look the other way and don't focus on them. Soon they will melt into the background and will loose their power to grate on your nerves.

Sacrifice is never easy, but in a marriage it is often worth it.

[Craig Paxton]

I would point out that the article is about the anonymous author and how she is coping with the situation. It is nearly silent about the husband and his apostasy, whether or not he had a good reason for it. In fact, there is no informational basis given at all for evaluating it.

While the article does not go into the specifics behind his loss of belief...it does acknowledge that he did in fact lose his testimony...

I also want to add that it will be a great day when the church can publish articles like this with out the need to use anonymose authors...let the sun shine in

[cwald]

01. Love one another...even those who come to the conclusion that the church is not what it claims to be...agree to disagree but still love and accept that two people CAN look at the same material and come away with perfectly justifiable reasons for their respective conclusions.

02. A more open and honest discussion of the "other" reasons behind disaffection i.e. the known issues for disbelief and why active members chose disbelief over belief.

03.The church isn't perfect...we've made some mistakes along the way and we'd like to apologize for...X,Y,Z.

04. Better accomodation for gays who chose to remain believers...navagate a path for them.

05. Allow All family members to attend their own children/siblings weddings or IF this is too much...Allow for Civil Weddings to be followed immediantly by a temple wedding.

There's more but that any one of these would be a great second step...

Bottom line Bridge Building, Accomdation and a Larger Tent.

This.

We need a larger tent. Not smaller. I hope the church membership will gravitate towards a more Universal message of acceptance and love and understanding, rather than the "us select LDS few will be separated from the rest of you in the Celestial Kingdom." type of posts I've read on this thread.