A Very Refreshing Ensign Article...Cudos To The Church

[Craig Paxton]

My congratulations to the church. I think this is a big first of what I hope is many steps. I particularly appreciated that the article didn't throw the apostate husband under the bus by using desire to sin or being offended as reasons for his disaffection. Surprise, he merely lost his belief.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/when-he-stopped-believing

[DBMormon]

In response to my many tearful prayers, one encompassing answer continued to impress itself strongly on my mind: “Just love him!”

I certainly hope those in this situation take this advice. It is the Savior's way.

[Damien the Leper]

Joanna Brooks and John Dehlin posted links to this article on Facebook. I loved the article.

[Avatar4321]

Thank you for the complisult. it was a good article.

[Damien the Leper]

Thank you for the complisult. it was a good article.

CP isn't off base, Avatar. How often do members of the church arrogantly and ignorantly presume 'desire to sin' or 'being offended' as the reasons one leaves the church or faith behind? Granted this may be the case for SOME, I would never arrogantly suggest that it is of the majority.

[BCSpace]

I would never.....suggest that it is of the majority

I would. And not just of the majority, but everyone in that situation without exception. Unbelief IS sin according to D&C 58:15. Now lest one complain that that's too easy, let me go a step further and say other sins lead to unbelief and there is no other path to unbelief but other sins both of omission and commission.

Now this doesn't take away anything from the great and doctrinal (because of official publication) article; it merely is what it is.

Also check out the context of apostasy that goes with the above reference:

D&C 58:14–16 . Of What Sins Had Edward Partridge Been Guilty As the First Bishop of the Church?

During the administration of Joseph F. Smith, the First Presidency of the Church issued a statement to clarify the role played by Edward Partridge. The following is an excerpt from that statement: “On occasion of the Prophet’s first visit to Independence, Missouri—Edward Partridge accompanied him—in the meetings and conferences held upon the land of Zion, Bishop Partridge several times strenuously opposed the measures of the Prophet, and was sharply reproved by the latter for his unbelief and hardness of heart. Indeed, the apostate, Ezra Booth, who was present, made the scene between the bishop and the Prophet one of the items that justified to him his apostasy. He refers to the circumstance in a letter, addressed to Bishop Partridge, which has been several times published in anti-‘Mormon’ literature. The Bishop, moreover, was reproved for his ‘blindness of heart and unbelief,’ and warned of the danger of falling from his high station, in a revelation given in August, 1831, while both he and the Prophet were still in Missouri: [ D&C 58:14–15 ].” (In Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 4:113.)

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-institute-student-manual/dc-in-051-58.asp

Edited June 22, 2012 by BCSpace

[Libs]

BC, when you say "unbelief is a sin" are you talking about unbelief in God..or in the LDS Church? Or is there no distinction, in your opinion?

[BCSpace]

BC, when you say "unbelief is a sin" are you talking about unbelief in God..or in the LDS Church? Or is there no distinction, in your opinion?

The direct context of D&C 58:15 seems to be the Church. For my part, there is no distinction whatsoever in general and I think the doctrine of the Church (only true, etc.) bears that out.

Edited June 22, 2012 by BCSpace

[Spammer]

I'm glad to see such an article published in the Ensign. If only the remaining arrogant dinosaurs like BC would drop and fly off to their eternal reward, I just might return to attending church more regularly with my family. It's a pipe dream, I know.

Wishing other posters dead is an automatic ban in these parts.

[Avatar4321]

I'm glad to see such an article published in the Ensign. If only the remaining arrogant dinosaurs like BC would drop and fly off to their eternal reward, I just might return to attending church more regularly with my family. It's a pipe dream, I know.

So when you are standing before the Eternal Judge, you are going to tell Him the reason you forsook your responsibilities and covenants was because of someone else, and you think He is going to be alright with that?

[Libs]

The direct context of D&C 58:15 seems to be the Church. For my part, there is no distinction whatsoever in general and I think the doctrine of the Church (only true, etc.) bears that out.

Okay, thanks for the response. I just wanted to be clear about your meaning.

[Spammer]

Well, since I am no longer a believer or church member, I need something else to hang on to. My wife keeps assuring me that the church is good, there are good things about it, the people are good, it doesn't matter that I'm not a believer. Since the church does not monopolize good works and isn't true, the only reason to go is 1) to support my family and 2) for the social relationships. Number 2 is a problem as every ward I've ever attended (including the current ward my family attends) is filled with smug Mormons like you and BC. No thanks. It's not worth the headache.

[Storm Rider]

Well, since I am no longer a believer or church member, I need something else to hang on to. My wife keeps assuring me that the church is good, there are good things about it, the people are good, it doesn't matter that I'm not a believer. Since the church does not monopolize good works and isn't true, the only reason to go is 1) to support my family and 2) for the social relationships. Number 2 is a problem as every ward I've ever attended (including the current ward my family attends) is filled with smug Mormons like you and BC. No thanks. It's not worth the headache.

I think what you say is true; there are smug Mormons everywhere. However, it is also just as true that your desire to support your family is weaker than your dislike/hatred of those smug Mormons i.e. "I" and my feelings are more important then my family. It is another way of viewing how we actually prioritize our willingness to act. I understand your position and we still are very capable of making very selfish choices when all our children or, more importantly, our own spouse would like is a little support once a week.

[Damien the Leper]

I would. And not just of the majority, but everyone in that situation without exception. Unbelief IS sin according to D&C 58:15. Now lest one complain that that's too easy, let me go a step further and say other sins lead to unbelief and there is no other path to unbelief but other sins both of omission and commission.

Now this doesn't take away anything from the great and doctrinal (because of official publication) article; it merely is what it is.

Also check out the context of apostasy that goes with the above reference:

There is a clear distinction between God and the LDS church. Your explanation does little to nothing but presume a motive and a response.

[BCSpace]

So it's smug to accept D&C 58:15 and remind people of it? Well, some people hear only what they want to hear. I believe there's a verse for that too. 2 Timothy 4 iirc...

[BCSpace]

There is a clear distinction between God and the LDS church.

In the context of LDS doctrine, there is no distinction of belief between on or the other. One cannot believe in God and simultaneously reject His Church.

[Avatar4321]

Well, since I am no longer a believer or church member, I need something else to hang on to. My wife keeps assuring me that the church is good, there are good things about it, the people are good, it doesn't matter that I'm not a believer. Since the church does not monopolize good works and isn't true, the only reason to go is 1) to support my family and 2) for the social relationships. Number 2 is a problem as every ward I've ever attended (including the current ward my family attends) is filled with smug Mormons like you and BC. No thanks. It's not worth the headache.

Sounds like a mote beam issue to me.

[Damien the Leper]

In the context of LDS doctrine, there is no distinction of belief between on or the other. One cannot believe in God and simultaneously reject His Church.

But in the context of scripture, there is a distinction between a physical institution and God. Jesus Christ is the embodiment of God's love and Church. The Church is sustained by a body of believers who believe in the justifying and sanctifying redemption offered through the blood of Christ. The Church is in the heart of the believers.

[Spammer]

I'd much rather that my family was out of the church with me. But, since my wife still finds value in it, I support them. My wife knows full well how uncomfortable being in a ward house makes me, but I try to go anyway. That includes stepping up and helping her get the boys ready to go, when they are both extremely resistant. "Church is boring!" "I hate church!" I'm sure some of you will tell me that's my fault, too. Whatever. The point is, I do try to be there for my wife. If every BC and Avatar in the church was more like the author of the Ensign article, that would make it so much easier on people like me. I might actually enjoy going, instead of putting on a show every Sunday morning for my boys' sake - a show I'm sure they can see right through, though I do my best to be a good liar for them.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Spammer

[Scott Lloyd]

My congratulations to the church. I think this is a big first of what I hope is many steps. I particularly appreciated that the article didn't throw the apostate husband under the bus by using desire to sin or being offended as reasons for his disaffection. Surprise, he merely lost his belief.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/when-he-stopped-believing

Since you call this article the first of what you hope are many steps, what's your ultimate hope or expectation of where the steps will ultimately lead?

Edited June 22, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I would point out that the article is about the anonymous author and how she is coping with the situation. It is nearly silent about the husband and his apostasy, whether or not he had a good reason for it. In fact, there is no informational basis given at all for evaluating it.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[selek1]

Jesus Christ is the embodiment of God's love and Church.

Utter rot. Jesus (rather than the touchy-feely metrosexual all-thing-to-all-people-with-itching ears icon) is the Son of God, our Lord and Redeemer. He is our Advocate with the Father.

He is a specific individual, wholly God.

He is not "the embodiment of God's Church".

He has set forth and established his Church and given that organization specific guidelines to follow and to proclaim.

They are non-negotiable, and not subject to alteration at your whim or preference.

The Church is sustained by a body of believers who believe in the justifying and sanctifying redemption offered through the blood of Christ. The Church is in the heart of the believers.

More neo-religious pseudo-mystical claptrap.

The Church is the specific organization established by Christ and administered by his servants.

It is true whether it is comprised of one man, or encompasses the whole of the Earth.

It exists as a separate, finite organization with specific guidelines and doctrines- not as some "catch-as-catch-can" "make-it-up-as-you-go" affinity.

You are either a part of Christ's Church or you are not.

You can either align youself with that Church or you can hare off after a chimera of your own making.

There is no third choice.

Edited June 22, 2012 by selek1

[Avatar4321]

I'd much rather that my family was out of the church with me. But, since my wife still finds value in it, I support them. My wife knows full well how uncomfortable being in a ward house makes me, but I try to go anyway. That includes stepping up and helping her get the boys ready to go, when they are both extremely resistant. "Church is boring!" "I hate church!" I'm sure some of you will tell me that's my fault, too. Whatever. The point is, I do try to be there for my wife. If every BC and Avatar in the church was more like the author of the Ensign article, that would make it so much easier on people like me. I might actually enjoy going, instead of putting on a show every Sunday morning for my boys' sake - a show I'm sure they can see right through, though I do my best to be a good liar for them.

i havent done a single thing to keep you out of the Church. All I've asked is if you really believe God is going to be alright with you making your choices based on what others do or what you perceive others to do.

[zerinus]

My congratulations to the church. I think this is a big first of what I hope is many steps. I particularly appreciated that the article didn't throw the apostate husband under the bus by using desire to sin or being offended as reasons for his disaffection. Surprise, he merely lost his belief.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/when-he-stopped-believing

There are many such untold stories in the LDS Church. I can think several such (and similar) examples in my home ward. They just haven't bothered to write and tell their stories for the Ensign.

[Storm Rider]

I'd much rather that my family was out of the church with me. But, since my wife still finds value in it, I support them. My wife knows full well how uncomfortable being in a ward house makes me, but I try to go anyway. That includes stepping up and helping her get the boys ready to go, when they are both extremely resistant. "Church is boring!" "I hate church!" I'm sure some of you will tell me that's my fault, too. Whatever. The point is, I do try to be there for my wife. If every BC and Avatar in the church was more like the author of the Ensign article, that would make it so much easier on people like me. I might actually enjoy going, instead of putting on a show every Sunday morning for my boys' sake - a show I'm sure they can see right through, though I do my best to be a good liar for them.

Life is difficult; marriages are difficult; being a good father is difficult. My mother died of cancer many years ago. My older, divorced sister had recently been dismissed from her job and she chose to take her children and move across the country and move into mom's home. In doing so, she made it clear that she chose to do so because she felt that she was needed and she wanted to be there to care for mother. The truth is that she was needed and all of our siblings appreciated her decision at first AND she needed to have a place to stay where her own bills could be paid for. It was not long before she made it clear that she was sacrificing her entire life to take care of our mother; she did not fail to tell our mom how much she was sacrificing and each of us heard about how hard it was. Every effort to serve our mother was given in a spirit of obligation; all charity had been abandoned. Of course mom regretted every time she needed any degree of assistance; every call for aid, and reduced her selfworth to that of a heavy burden on her older child.

Perspective, tone, spirit, attitude these reveal the condition of our heart. Of course your boys can see where your heart is and how you might (or might not) be doing things grudgingly like going to church. Of course, they will also reflect your own attitude in how they feel about church.

When we treat what others highly value with disrespect, what do you think is the impact on the relationship? This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with your own happiness and the quality of your familial relationships. We can be apostates, we can totally reject the entire message or idea that there is a God, and yet we can treat it will deep respect and that respect will be seen in our attitude and our actions.

You may want to reconsider the quality of your support. We create our own hell. You can also create a truly supportive situation that is both honest and full of integrity on your part; it really has to do with the condition of your own heart and what you really value most. Be wise in your your choices; in this situation they will have far ranging consequences that you do not begin to understand at this stage.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Storm Rider