RegularMormon Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 I don't know why I never noticed this before but while reading in Mosiah chapter 20 it was describing how the Nephites were fighting the Laminites. In vs 10 it used "Lions" to describe how they fought and in vs 11 it then used "Dragons" to describe how the fighting went.10 And it came to pass that the battle became exceedingly sore, for they fought like lions for their prey.11 And it came to pass that the people of Limhi began to drive the Lamanites before them; yet they were not half so numerous as the Lamanites. But they fought for their lives, and for their wives, and for their children; therefore they exerted themselves and like dragons did they fight.My question was, (and forgive me of my ignorance in this area) but were there dragons? I've always thought of dragons as a science fiction creature. Other than a Komono Dragon I guess but that wouldn't be the first thing I I would think of to describe a fight although they are scary. lol But maybe I read too many Sci-fi books and there really were dragons just not the kind that blow out fire and fly? Any thoughts on this?
Brant Gardner Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 First, it is always important to remember that we are reading the Book of Mormon in translation. That means that the English we read referenced a different word in a different language. The relationship between the two is subject to debate.Second, we are clearly dealing with allusions. Neither lions or dragons were fighting, but men were fighting with ferocity that appears to have been likened to two animals that were deemed to be fierce. In that context, if there was a mythical dragon that was understood to be fierce (or whatever mythical animal was translated as dragon) then the text makes perfect sense. There is no reason to suppose that a dragon was a real animal. 1
morgan.deane Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I don't know why I never noticed this before but while reading in Mosiah chapter 20it was describing how the Nephites were fighting the Laminites. In vs 10 it used "Lions" to describe how they fought and in vs 11 it then used "Dragons" to describe how the fighting went.10 And it came to pass that the battle became exceedingly sore, for they fought like lions for their prey.11 And it came to pass that the people of Limhi began to drive the Lamanites before them; yet they were not half so numerous as the Lamanites. But they fought for their lives, and for their wives, and for their children; therefore they exerted themselves and like dragons did they fight.My question was, (and forgive me of my ignorance in this area) but were there dragons? I've always thought of dragons as a science fiction creature. Other than a Komono Dragon I guess but that wouldn't be the first thing I I would think of to describe a fight although they are scary. lol But maybe I read too many Sci-fi books and there really were dragons just not the kind that blow out fire and fly? Any thoughts on this?I'm doing some research into martial culture and ideology in the BoM. It should include a great deal about dragons. It is still in the "unorganized matter" phase so I can't say much more than that. But there are some intriuging items I am finding so far. Edited May 25, 2012 by morgan.deane
blackstrap Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 Just for fun,look up the Acambaro figures and the peru Ica stones to see some interesting 'dragons'
RegularMormon Posted May 25, 2012 Author Posted May 25, 2012 doing a search of dragon on lds.org shows dragons referenced in the old and new testament as well.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I don't know why I never noticed this before but while reading in Mosiah chapter 20it was describing how the Nephites were fighting the Laminites. In vs 10 it used "Lions" to describe how they fought and in vs 11 it then used "Dragons" to describe how the fighting went.10 And it came to pass that the battle became exceedingly sore, for they fought like lions for their prey.11 And it came to pass that the people of Limhi began to drive the Lamanites before them; yet they were not half so numerous as the Lamanites. But they fought for their lives, and for their wives, and for their children; therefore they exerted themselves and like dragons did they fight.My question was, (and forgive me of my ignorance in this area) but were there dragons? I've always thought of dragons as a science fiction creature. Other than a Komono Dragon I guess but that wouldn't be the first thing I I would think of to describe a fight although they are scary. lol But maybe I read too many Sci-fi books and there really were dragons just not the kind that blow out fire and fly? Any thoughts on this?Dragons are KJV mythical beasts[1] which according to Isaiah are supposed to inhabit the palaces of a deserted Babylon (Isaiah 13:22 ǁ2 Nephi 23:22; Isaiah 34:13, 35:7 Hebrew tannîm “jackals’; var. Isaiah 27:1 tannin “dragons”[2]); perhaps to be taken entirely figuratively (Mosiah 20:11, Alma 43:44).[3][1] LDS Holy Bible (1979), 879, Hebrew perhaps ”jackals, or wild dogs”; 902-903, Hebrew “the resort of jackals.”[2] See full discussion by Simon B. Parker, “dragon,” in P. J. Achtemeier, ed., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 225-226; and John Day, “Dragon and Sea, God’s Conflict with,” in Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, II:228-231.[3] LDS “Bible Dictionary,” 658-659.------------------------------------- One would want also to compare Satyrs, which are mythical faun or goat-like demonic animals, which also appear in Isaiah,[1] which will dance in a deserted Babylon (Isaiah 13:21 ǁ2 Nephi 23:21; Isaiah 34:14): Hebrew śāʿîr, śĕʿîrîm “he-goat; goat-demon.”[2][1] LDS Holy Bible (1979), 879, Hebrew “he-goats, or demons.”[2] See P. J. Achtemeier, ed., “satyr,” Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 909.-------------------------------------- Compare also Rahab, which is used parallel to Dragon in an Isaiah quotation (2 Nephi 8:9 ǁIsaiah 51:9 ǁ”dragon”).From Hebrew rāhab, rahab[1] “boisterous-one,”[2] clearly cross-identfied with Leviathan / Lotan in biblical and Ugaritic literature (Psalm 89:9-10[10-11], Isaiah 30:7 Rahab [absent in KJV] ǁEgypt; Job 9:13, 26:12-13 Rahab ǁtwisting serpent; cf. Isaiah 27:1 leviathan[3] the twisting serpent ǁleviathan that crooked serpentǁthe dragon that is in the sea; Psalm 74:13-14 sea ǁdragons ǁLeviathan; CTA 5.1.1).[4][1] LDS “Bible Dictionary,” 759, refers to a different Rahab with different spelling, namely PN rāḥāb “broad” (Joshua 2:1,3, 6:17,23,25, Hebrews 11:31, James 2:25).[2] LDS Holy Bible (1979), 879, Hebrew perhaps ”jackals, or wild dogs”; 902-903, Hebrew “the resort of jackals.”[3] See full discussion by Simon B. Parker, “dragon,” in P. J. Achtemeier, ed., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 225-226; and John Day, “Dragon and Sea, God’s Conflict with,” in Freedman, ed., ABD, II:228-231.[4] LDS “Bible Dictionary,” 658-659. Edited May 25, 2012 by Robert F. Smith
The Nehor Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 If it wasn't metaphor then we have to assume the Nephites fought with claws, teeth, and by breathing fire.
blackstrap Posted May 26, 2012 Posted May 26, 2012 If it wasn't metaphor then we have to assume the Nephites fought with claws, teeth, and by breathing fire. How did that work out for Mike Tyson?Except for the breathing fire stuff.
Maidservant Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 Maybe not dragons, but aren't super-serpents quintessential mesoamerica?
Storm Rider Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 I don't know why I never noticed this before but while reading in Mosiah chapter 20it was describing how the Nephites were fighting the Laminites. In vs 10 it used "Lions" to describe how they fought and in vs 11 it then used "Dragons" to describe how the fighting went.10 And it came to pass that the battle became exceedingly sore, for they fought like lions for their prey.11 And it came to pass that the people of Limhi began to drive the Lamanites before them; yet they were not half so numerous as the Lamanites. But they fought for their lives, and for their wives, and for their children; therefore they exerted themselves and like dragons did they fight.My question was, (and forgive me of my ignorance in this area) but were there dragons? I've always thought of dragons as a science fiction creature. Other than a Komono Dragon I guess but that wouldn't be the first thing I I would think of to describe a fight although they are scary. lol But maybe I read too many Sci-fi books and there really were dragons just not the kind that blow out fire and fly? Any thoughts on this?Have you ever looked at some of the beasts mentioned in the bible? Might want to take a look.
Freedom Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 Central American tradition, at least among the Olmecs, has dragons. So having reference to dragons in a mezzo american setting is quite appropriate. Nevertheless, it is a translation into English for English readers so using a unique ancient nephite term that has no meaning to any of us would not be an effective method to present the material in a clear and understandable manner.
BCSpace Posted May 28, 2012 Posted May 28, 2012 10 And it came to pass that the battle became exceedingly sore, for they fought like lions for their prey.11 And it came to pass that the people of Limhi began to drive the Lamanites before them; yet they were not half so numerous as the Lamanites. But they fought for their lives, and for their wives, and for their children; therefore they exerted themselves and like dragons did they fight.My question was, (and forgive me of my ignorance in this area) but were there dragons?Since it's not been determined exactly how the translation took place, could this not be JS's own words in description of what he saw?
Cobalt-70 Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) My question was, (and forgive me of my ignorance in this area) but were there dragons? I've always thought of dragons as a science fiction creature. Other than a Komono Dragon I guess but that wouldn't be the first thing I I would think of to describe a fight although they are scary. lol But maybe I read too many Sci-fi books and there really were dragons just not the kind that blow out fire and fly? Any thoughts on this?Dragons are related to cureloms and cumoms. That is, they are fictional creatures. Edited May 30, 2012 by Cobalt-70
Robert F. Smith Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Dragons are related to cureloms and cumoms. That is, they are fictional creatures.Depends on what you take to be a dragon: The Komodo Dragon, now found only in Indonesia, but once ranging much more widely, is the largest poisonous lizard on earth. The modern version grows to about 3 meters (10 ft) and weighs over 70 kilos (150 lbs), and will take down and eat wild boar, buffalo, or human children.The ancient ancestor of the Komodo was the Megalania, which grew to 7 meters (23 ft) and weighed around 1,940 kilos (4,300 lbs).On the other hand, we do not normally hear the claim that the biblical description of satyrs, Leviathan, dragons, and the like, mean that all other named creatures within the Bible are fictional, even when we do not now know what the ancient Hebrew term actually means. I know of no scholar who makes such a claim.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) FreedomCentral American tradition, at least among the Olmecs, has dragons. So having reference to dragons in a mezzo american setting is quite appropriate. Nevertheless, it is a translation into English for English readers so using a unique ancient nephite term that has no meaning to any of us would not be an effective method to present the material in a clear and understandable manner. Maybe not dragons, but aren't super-serpents quintessential mesoamerica?Yes, of course. In Nahuatl, the "feathered-serpent" was termed Quetzalcoatl, and in Maya Kukulcan, and they were often used as the major decor of Mesoamerican temples.In the Book of Mormon too, the "fiery flying serpent" plays a major role as historical and typological icon: There is the Nephite tradition of “fiery flying serpents” (I Nephi 17:41, Numbers 21:6), which is the Mosaic serpent as a “type” (of Christ) already in the early 1st century B.C. (II Nephi 25:20, Alma 33:19, Helaman 8:14-15, II Kings 18:4, John 3:14) -- and which (according to the Book of Mormon) was brought from the Old World at about the same time that something similar appears on Olmec Monument 19 at La Venta, Mexico. Furthermore, the claim that Christ is an antitype of the brazen serpent reminds us of the frequent 2nd and 1st century B.C. Jewish portrayals of Yahweh as bird-headed and serpent-footed,[2] along with the promise in Malachi 3:20 (KJV 4:2) that “the Sun of Righteousness will arise with healing in his wings,”[3] or indeed the claim in Psalm 84:11 that “Sun and suzerain is Yahweh-God” (Dahood).[4] The glyptic art of the ancient Near East is rife with winged sun-disks – often accompanied by uraei – which are commonly taken as the symbol of the king or head of pantheon. Outside Egypt, of course, winged sun-disks were everywhere the symbol of Semitic 'El.[5]--------------------------- [2] Joseph Campbell, The Mythic Image, Bollingen Foundation Series 100 (Princeton Univ. Press, 1974/reprint N.Y.: MJF Books), 294-296.[3] III Nephi 25:2 (Ether 9:22), erroneously reading “Son” for “Sun.”[4] Cf. Luke 1:78-79 marginal reading (1611 KJV “sun-rising”); cf. also Ps 19:4-6.[5] Y. Yadin in J. A. Sanders, ed., Near Eastern Archaeology in the Twentieth Century (Doubleday, 1970), 202-203; cf. A. Ben-Tor, Cylinder Seals of Third Millennium Palestine (Scholars Press, 1978), for the context of glyptic art of ancient Near East; E. Goodenough, Jewish Symbols in the Greco-Roman Period, 13 vols. (N.Y.: Pantheon, 1953-1968); K. van der Toorn, “Sun,” in Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, VI:239; J. Glen Taylor, Yahweh and the Sun: Biblical and Archaeological Evidence for Sun Worship in Ancient Israel, JSOT Supplement 111 (Sheffield Academic Press, 1993); Mark S. Smith, “The Near Eastern Background for Solar Language for Yahweh,” JBL, 109 (1990), 29-39. Edited June 2, 2012 by Robert F. Smith
Aliwe Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Second, we are clearly dealing with allusions. Neither lions or dragons were fighting, but men were fighting with ferocity that appears to have been likened to two animals that were deemed to be fierce. In that context, if there was a mythical dragon that was understood to be fierce (or whatever mythical animal was translated as dragon) then the text makes perfect sense. There is no reason to suppose that a dragon was a real animal.Thanks for telling me this! I was just about to submit the gospels to a scientific test and try to stick a two by four in my eye. I gave up on the camel through the eye of a needle thing, because even after I turned the camel into a fine puree, it was taking too long to pour him through the requisite funnel.
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