Todd Burpo'S "Heaven Is For Real."

[Tacenda]

So has anyone seen the movie?  We had a woman bring up the movie in Gospel Doctrine last week (using it as an example of something as if it were 100% true and reliable).  I think about half the class rolled their eyes.     I asked my wife if she thought that woman would have been as impressed if the boy had "remembered" stuff that directly contradicts LDS doctrines. 

It bugs me when my LDS husband doesn't believe in people that can communicate with the dead, or maybe NDE's.  I thought LDS believed in an afterlife and spirits, yet when stuff comes up about a ghost/spirit or some such thing, it's apparently unbelievable, or like you said they roll their eyes.  Pretty silly, in my book.  And you're right in the post above, if Colton joins the church later, then we'll have some believers!! 

[cinepro]

It bugs me when my LDS husband doesn't believe in people that can communicate with the dead, or maybe NDE's.  I thought LDS believed in an afterlife and spirits, yet when stuff comes up about a ghost/spirit or some such thing, it's apparently unbelievable, or like you said they roll their eyes.  Pretty silly, in my book.  And you're right in the post above, if Colton joins the church later, then we'll have some believers!! 

 

Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have to believe everything.

[Flyonthewall]

I think it can be helpful to think of NDEs as more like visionary experiences, which can have symbolic content and culturally and individually specific meaning, rather than as eyewitness accounts of an objectively-observed after-reality. I still tend to think they are real experiences, not just imaginations. But they aren't fixed.

My thoughts exactly... Each experience is for the individual and will use culturally relevant imagery.

[readstoomuch]

There is a neurosurgeon named Eben Alexander who had a NDE. He was raised with some religion, but was rather agnostic. I have some experience with those who know his family. He was quite convinced that he was seeing God/afterlife. My wife read all of his book, while I read just parts, but there were many things like our theology and some not. I think NDE are like dreams, visions, premonitions and a vast assortment of experiences. There are some physiologic events that happen when the brain is starved for oxygen. For example neurotransmitters such as serotonin and dopamine are dumped into the brain in huge amounts. Some of the events in certain NDE are at least partly explained by changes in the physiology of the brain. I believe in God and that some NDE experiences are real and informative. Perhaps they are like the Apocrypha, there are things to learn if judged carefully and with prayer.

[Kevin Christensen]

I know of a few experiences in an LDS context that would answer your query. Has anyone ever read Elane Durham's book I Stand All Amazed? According to her she grew up dealing with all kinds of crap, and had a lot of challenges in her life (not the least of which was a spiritual emptiness). Long story short, she says that she dies, goes up to heaven and meets Jesus. She basically learns things up there that lead her to joining the LDS church. Another story that I'm familiar with is that of a gentleman named Gary Gillum that i found in a book called No More Strangers He doesn't go into it too much but from what I read, he was in a car wreck and had an experience with the "other side" that he didn't quite understand. A number of years later, after joining the church, he went to Manti to do his endowment, and the Manti Temple is what he saw in his nde. I can think of a few others that I read in a book by Brent Top written back in 1993-94.

Having said that, I know of a few other instances where a person changed religions (or philosophies) after a near death experience. I remember reading about a Church of Christ minister who had a nde and ended up becoming muslim (don't remember his name but go to wikipedia and look up Christian Converts to Islam and it should be in there somewhere). Also there is the famous Howard Storm who was an atheist but became a Christian minister after an nde. I believe he is currently a minister in the UCC (a fairly liberal denomination) and is friendly towards the Catholic church. Finally, I do recall seeing a grainy video from the 80's that was on the 700 club. I guess this lady, Kay Lynn Trimble claims that she was Mormon then had a near death experience, went to Hell, and was saved by Jesus who told her that she needed to stay away from the Mormons because she would be going to hell if she remained one. In regards to this one, I don't know how legit it is because even though the video is still up, I haven't seen it used a whole lot by the antis, plus I haven't really heard of any other ndes that would fit that mold. I also recall seeing a video on youtube that said it was fake because some things didn't match up. I only know it was disconcerting to watch and listen to (if anyone has more info on this one let me know).

Basically even though ndes are awesome, they definitely aren't a good indicator of reality because they are extremely varied. On a personal note, my aunt ended up adopting a boy from Russia who was actually adopted by another family (long but interesting story). I guess before this boy was adopted he had a near death experience where he said an "angel lady" came to him and told him that he was going to go to America and who to watch for, (which was my aunt and uncle) so when they came to the orphanage he knew who they were and they ended up bringing him home. It is a beautiful story, its just that ndes are so complicated and so varied I feel uncomforatble staking truth claims to them.

I met Elane Durham at the 1999 IANDS conference in Salt Lake City. And I heard Howard Storm speak. I've read their books, both of which are very good.

For my take on the significance for LDS, see my Nigh Unto Death: NDE Research and the Book of Mormon in JBMS 2/1.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1382&index=2

To that, I would also had that Brigham Young's teachings about the afterlike appear to come from his own NDE in Winter Quarters. When Jeddy Grant later had an afterlife experience, he reported to Heber C. Kimball, "Why, it was just as Brigham has told us many times." In Moody's The Light Beyond, the "LDS leaders" he speaks of is basically Brigham Young. Look at the Spirit World chapter in the Brigham Young manual for some pointers. He knew a lot that does not appear in the scripture, but is confirmed by modern NDE reports.

After hearing Howard Storm speak in Salt Lake City, I note that in many ways he talks like Alma, not just in the experience, but in the way his mind works as a result of the experience. He is kind of a Modern Day Alma, though not LDS. A Congregationalist Minister in Cincinnati, as I recall.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My Wife and I last night finished reading Todd Burpo's "Heaven is for Real." It is the account of a Nebraska preacher's son, Colton, who had a Near Death Experience (NDE) as a little child during a bout of appendicitis. After beginning his recovery, the boy astonished his parents by telling them that he had gone to heaven. He related, over the course of the next few months, an incredible amount of detail about what he saw in heaven.

I feel as if I am going to have to put his experience on the "Fatima shelf" in my soul, the place where I put all the spiritual anomalies that conflict with what I am trying to believe in, i.e., my LDS faith. Mohammed's vision resides there, along with the claims of James Strang and all those passionate souls to whom the Virgin Mary has appeared and urged them to stay true to the Holy Catholic Church and pray the rosary.

Colton does state that in heaven, the family unit continues -- score one for Mormon doctrine, as against some, though certainly not all, Christian sects. He also declares that Christ has blue eyes. Not LDS scripture but I do think Joseph Smith also said something to that effect. And that the Holy Ghost is definitely a personage, not just a force emanating from the Father and Son.

But he also seems to toe the Protestant line about damnation for anyone who didn't say the Sinner's Prayer in life. No mention of any work for the dead or gospel being preached to the spirits in prison -- and no description of heaven having any degrees of glory. He also reports that everybody in heaven has wings, even Jesus. And his idea of heaven almost sounds like a medieval fortress, with Jesus keeping a horse and the angels and other inhabitants carrying literal swords and bows and arrows to keep out monsters as well as Satan who is continually trying to sneak in there. Could a sword really do any damage to a spirit being? And if weapons are needed up there, cannot the God of the Universe find something a little more up to date than a bow and arrow?

Let's just hope another popular book is not made into a Christian or any other type movie..."23 mins in Hell".

[nosmelone]

Maybe I just missed it in the other reply's but I do admit I was very interested in Lance Richardson's NDE in "The Message".  I find it interesting when compared to some of the NDE's in the Book of Mormon.  We see Ammon, Lamoni (and wife) and many others (Alma the younger) that seem to be having NDE's when confronted with the spirit.  I don't necessarily know what to make of it but it seems to have lead so some sort of a calling or resposibility in the BOM.  I did a blog post on it based off of Mark Alan Wrights article out of the Studies in the Bible and Antiquity ( According to Their Language, unto Their understanding": The Cultural Context of Hierophanies and Theophanies in Latter-day Saint Canon, Mark Alan Wright Studies in the Bible and Antiquity: Volume - 3, Pages: 51–65 Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2011.)  Where i also liken Hopi NDE's to his conclusions.

 

http://www.inthecavityofarock.blogspot.com/2014/01/near-death-experiences-angelic-visitors.html

[rpn]

 

Even for children under the age of 8?  I thought the teaching was that they went directly to the celestial kingdom.

 

The celestial kingdom in its glory is the earth renewed to receive its paradisiacal glory.   It doesn't currently exist in that form. 

 

"10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes[;] [t]hat Zion [(the New Jerusalem)] will be built upon this¹ [the]¹ [American]² continent[;] [t]hat Christ will reign personally upon the earth[;] and[,] that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiac[al] glory."

[bluebell]

The celestial kingdom in its glory is the earth renewed to receive its paradisiacal glory.   It doesn't currently exist in that form. 

 

"10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes[;] [t]hat Zion [(the New Jerusalem)] will be built upon this¹ [the]¹ [American]² continent[;] [t]hat Christ will reign personally upon the earth[;] and[,] that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiac[al] glory."

 

O.k., wherever God currently resides then.  Isn't that our doctrine, that that's where children go who die before age 8?

[rpn]

No I don't think that is our doctrine.  In fact a prophet or two have said that children who die as a child will be raised by parents during the millennium.   But there were plenty who died before the first resurrection and they wouldn't have gone to live with God immediately as a spirit, without their body.  And we are not assigned to kingdoms until judgment and judgment occurs only at the end of the millennium for all.

[The Nehor]

Just because you believe something doesn't mean you have to believe everything.

 

This.

 

I have participated in a bonafide casting out of unclean spirits. This does not mean I have to believe the batty woman at work who is convinced all cases of schizophrenia are caused by demons or every story told about them.

 

Anyone whose appeal is that you believe in something so you have to believe anything they say that has any similarities is probably lying, exaggerating, after your money, or just plain desperate for validation and attention.

[danielwoods]

Saw the movie finally. They seemed to portray the dad as more of a doubter, than the book does. They left out the parts about the doctor's failed diagnosis, and finding of "Pops" younger photo involved his mom or mother-in law (I don't recall). 

 

Definitely a good movie despite the changes.