Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou

[Senator]

Not here, no.

Thank you, that was simply my point in regards to RM's disappointment in JD having brought this argument here. He didn't, others did, and in a manner totally irrelevant to thread it was brought up in.

[Mark Beesley]

51 users on here right now.... do we know if that is a record?

And all because of a thread that is, at its core, personal in nature . . .

[Calm]

Rufus, it would be helpful if you would list the things you found so offensive at the MI and FAIR that caused you to apostacize. Generic accusations do not help, imo, save to establish the attitude of the person making the accusation. Specifics are needed if people are going to be able identify those areas that need changing.

Another thread would probably be useful, since you only have one post, I will be happy to cut and paste any response to my request here and start a new thread for you.

Edited May 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[William Schryver]

So JD didn't bring it here. He did show up in his own defense.

"Defense?"

???

Defense of what?

If anyone has any cause to "show up in his own defense," it is Greg Smith!

This is now the second time in a year that we have seen this newly adopted approach of the apostate evangelists when they learn that an important piece of Mormon apologia is about to go to print: pull out all the stops, unloose the dogs of a full-fledged propaganda war, and do everything in their power to CENSOR the voice that they themselves cannot otherwise silence.

[Calm]

And all because of a thread that is, at its core, personal in nature . . .

Now it's 53.

[William Schryver]

I would like to relate my personal experience with regard to my personal faith crisis in order to shed some light on the concerns that many have with regard to the tactics employed by FAIR/FARMS?MI.

Several months ago, I was give a book, written by an scholar regarding the life of Joseph Smith. There were several things in that book that I had been told were untrue and simply a case of misinformation. The book in question was Rough Stone Rolling. Reading these things brought up many, many old wounds. Compund that with me going to my ecclesiastical leaders and begging for answers. They refered me to the scriptures and also to the apologist's writing on the many issues I was struggling over.

So I started the sojourn of wanting so desperately to believe and looking for ways to help me make sense of it all. Some of the first sources I encountered were written by Dan Peterson. Mind you, I am in at the begging of a major faith crisis and am looking for help. I am pleading with Heavenly Father to help me find the truth and to help me make sense of some of the troubling history that I had rediscovered and to put it to bed once and for all in my life. (I have not yet listened to one podcast, nor have I read any other source other than Bushman).

My sojourn takes me to Mr. Peterson's writings, and he was not the only one, but the tone and vitriol of what was being written by these supposed men of God, totally turned me from a believer desperately holding on to my now fragile testimony, to a person shattered. Where was the humilty and respect of the Savior? Where was the kind and nurturing messages I had hoped for? What I found was akin to my elementary days and middle school days of schoolyard name calling and pious denunciation of those to whom the authors so disagreed.

So I turned to other sources and found books written by current and former members who were contrite and humble in what they presented. I ahve carefully avoided the Tanners and others whose retoric is decidedly anti-Mormon. I can honestly say that I owe my personal apostacy to those "intellectuals" at Fair/Farms/ and the Maxwell Institute.

Mr. Peterson, when John Dehlin writes that you and your associates and turning people away from the church, he is telling you the truth. I am one example of thousands who went looking for help and assurance and ended up inactive and lost.

(And before you holier than thou, pious posters on here try to judge me, please understand, I was in a bishopric in Utah. I have been in an Elder's quorum presidency, and I have held many other leadership positions. I have six kids all under the age of 15. I was a 6th generation member with a very strong testimony. You would be wise to heed my words and to humble your tone and set as your mission a desire to bring souls unto Christ, rather than the opposite).

Thank-you for the opportunity to respond!

Rufus

Beautiful!

Touching!

And right on cue ...

Edited May 10, 2012 by William Schryver

[Scott Lloyd]

(And before you holier than thou, pious posters on here try to judge me, please understand, I was in a bishopric in Utah.

I take it you weren't the bishop, or you would have said so. Were you first or second counselor? (Being a clerk or executive secretary does not constitute being "in a bishopric," in Utah or anywhere else.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[LoudmouthMormon]

In the end, the only good reason to be a mormon, is you figure God wants you to be one.

If you figure He does, nothing any human, in or out of the church, will stand in the way of your testimony.

If you don't have that assurance, then your testimony is in the hands of personalities, emotions, agendas, and other things we fallible humans produce.

Edited May 10, 2012 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

In the end, the only good reason to be a mormon, is you figure God wants you to be one.

If you figure He does, nothing any human, in or out of the church, will stand in the way of your testimony.

If you don't have that assurance, then your testimony is in the hands of personalities, emotions, agendas, and other things we fallible humans produce.

[volgadon]

My sojourn takes me to Mr. Peterson's writings, and he was not the only one, but the tone and vitriol of what was being written by these supposed men of God, totally turned me from a believer desperately holding on to my now fragile testimony, to a person shattered. Where was the humilty and respect of the Savior? Where was the kind and nurturing messages I had hoped for? What I found was akin to my elementary days and middle school days of schoolyard name calling and pious denunciation of those to whom the authors so disagreed.

So I turned to other sources and found books written by current and former members who were contrite and humble in what they presented. I ahve carefully avoided the Tanners and others whose retoric is decidedly anti-Mormon. I can honestly say that I owe my personal apostacy to those "intellectuals" at Fair/Farms/ and the Maxwell Institute.

Truth be told, this attitude always has baffled me. Lets assume that you read something by an utter jerk of such unfathomed, pompous magnitude, we can call him Volgadon for the sake of discussion. Do you reject anything he has written because of that? What if his interpretation of the evidence is correct? While I would much rather read something by a person who isn't a jerk, evidence is evidence. The kind of process you've outlined is just as childish and judgemental, honestly. It is shifting the blame to someone else entirely, hanging your testimony on someone else's good behaviour. If you were in a bishopric, have you never done anything that might have come off the wrong way to someone else? Are you not then responsible for turning them away? Offenses should be avoided as much as possible, but we are all human.

Edited May 10, 2012 by volgadon

[Scott Lloyd]

Truth be told, this attitude always has baffled me. Lets assume that you read something by an utter jerk of such unfathomed, pompous magnitude, we can call him Volgadon for the sake of discussion. Do you reject anything he has written because of that? What if his interpretation of the evidence is correct? While I would much rather read something by a person who isn't a jerk, evidence is evidence. The kind of process you've outlined is just as childish and judgemental, honestly. It is shifting the blame to someone else entirely.

Like calmoriah, I've exceeded my quota of rep points for the day, so I can only say Bravo! to this post.

While I'm at it, I'll add that a thing that has always baffled me is the notion that being a "sixth-generation" Mormon with a laundry list of past Church callings necessarily endows one with a greater degree of credibility when he falls away. There have always been apostates of all stripes, and I suspect there will continue to be, right up to the millennial day

Edited May 10, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

I would like to relate my personal experience with regard to my personal faith crisis in order to shed some light on the concerns that many have with regard to the tactics employed by FAIR/FARMS?MI.

Several months ago, I was give a book, written by an scholar regarding the life of Joseph Smith. There were several things in that book that I had been told were untrue and simply a case of misinformation. The book in question was Rough Stone Rolling. Reading these things brought up many, many old wounds. Compund that with me going to my ecclesiastical leaders and begging for answers. They refered me to the scriptures and also to the apologist's writing on the many issues I was struggling over.

So I started the sojourn of wanting so desperately to believe and looking for ways to help me make sense of it all. Some of the first sources I encountered were written by Dan Peterson. Mind you, I am in at the begging of a major faith crisis and am looking for help. I am pleading with Heavenly Father to help me find the truth and to help me make sense of some of the troubling history that I had rediscovered and to put it to bed once and for all in my life. (I have not yet listened to one podcast, nor have I read any other source other than Bushman).

My sojourn takes me to Mr. Peterson's writings, and he was not the only one, but the tone and vitriol of what was being written by these supposed men of God, totally turned me from a believer desperately holding on to my now fragile testimony, to a person shattered. Where was the humilty and respect of the Savior? Where was the kind and nurturing messages I had hoped for? What I found was akin to my elementary days and middle school days of schoolyard name calling and pious denunciation of those to whom the authors so disagreed.

So I turned to other sources and found books written by current and former members who were contrite and humble in what they presented. I ahve carefully avoided the Tanners and others whose retoric is decidedly anti-Mormon. I can honestly say that I owe my personal apostacy to those "intellectuals" at Fair/Farms/ and the Maxwell Institute.

Mr. Peterson, when John Dehlin writes that you and your associates and turning people away from the church, he is telling you the truth. I am one example of thousands who went looking for help and assurance and ended up inactive and lost.

(And before you holier than thou, pious posters on here try to judge me, please understand, I was in a bishopric in Utah. I have been in an Elder's quorum presidency, and I have held many other leadership positions. I have six kids all under the age of 15. I was a 6th generation member with a very strong testimony. You would be wise to heed my words and to humble your tone and set as your mission a desire to bring souls unto Christ, rather than the opposite).

Thank-you for the opportunity to respond!

Rufus

I appreciate your words, and have no desire to judge your journey or pick sides in this issue, as i don't have a dog in the fight.

However, how can you warn people against judging you and then in the same breath call those same people proud, 'self-righteous', and without a sincere desire to lead people to Christ?

For all the good that last paragraph did for you, you might as well have just ended with 'but ignore everything i've said up to right now, because i'm about to prove that i think judging people harshly who disagree with you is completely acceptable."

[ebeddoulos]

I take it you weren't the bishop, or you would have said so. Were you first or second counselor?

He was probably the membership clerk which position in LDS Tools is listed as a part of the bishopric. No matter what his position was his use of it is a classic appeal to authority fallacy.

[volgadon]

However, how can you warn people against judging you and then in the same breath call those same people proud, 'self-righteous', and without a sincere desire to lead people to Christ?

For all the good that last paragraph did for you, you might as well have just ended with 'but ignore everything i've said up to right now, because i'm about to prove that i think judging people harshly who disagree with you is completely acceptable."

Just goes to show how human we all are.

[Scott Lloyd]

He was probably the membership clerk which position in LDS Tools is listed as a part of the bishopric. No matter what his position was his use of it is a classic appeal to authority fallacy.

LDS Tools (which I have on my iPod Touch) does not define what constitutes a bishopric; the Church Handbook does. (If you'll recall, we had a discussion on this point last September.)

And I agree with you about the appeal-to-authority fallacy (see my last post).

Edited May 10, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Peppermint Patty]

The only thing that matters to me is that someone in a Church Leadership role (GA or an Apostle) made the decision that this article was inappropriate to be published. For me, this is all that really matters. This decision was made by our Leaders and we should not be questioning the wisdom of such a decision.

It would be interesting to see an email or other corresponce from this GA or Apostle and the reasons they felt this article was inappropriate, though.

Also, I don't think the personal attacks by both sides are justified.

[mentalgymnast]

I appreciate your words, and have no desire to judge your journey or pick sides in this issue, as i don't have a dog in the fight.

However, how can you warn people against judging you and then in the same breath call those same people proud, 'self-righteous', and without a sincere desire to lead people to Christ?

For all the good that last paragraph did for you, you might as well have just ended with 'but ignore everything i've said up to right now, because i'm about to prove that i think judging people harshly who disagree with you is completely acceptable."

It's been a little over twenty-five minutes and Rufus has been dog piled on. His story has been discounted at face value. If you take some of the comments at the beginning of this thread by Schryver, Crockett and Storm Rider and then look at the response that Rufus has received thus far, it becomes apparent that there may be some merit to what he has to say. Look in the mirror people...Regards,MG Regards,MG

[Scott Lloyd]

The only thing that matters to me is that someone in a Church Leadership role (GA or an Apostle) made the decision that this article was inappropriate to be published. For me, this is all that really matters. This decision was made by our Leaders and we should not be questioning the wisdom of such a decision.

From what I can tell, all we have to go on regarding that point so far is second-hand rumor reported by John Dehlin himself. Which General Authority made that determination, what was his reasoning and specific response, and, presuming the information is correct, had he actually seen the article in question?

Edited May 10, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

The only thing that matters to me is that someone in a Church Leadership role (GA or an Apostle) made the decision that this article was inappropriate to be published. For me, this is all that really matters. This decision was made by our Leaders and we should not be questioning the wisdom of such a decision.

No offense meant in the least, but the decision was made by a leader, and i'm not sure it was made by him acting in his capacity of leadership or just as a friend of JD.

Unless and until the decision is publically endorsed as being made for a specific reason, then i don't see how we can't judge this as the leader's (who's name we don't even know) opinion on the matter and nothing more. In this instance, i honestly don't feel that any leader's anonymous and behind the scenes wrangling should be at all binding on anyone.

[Calm]

Reading these things brought up many, many old wounds. Compund that with me going to my ecclesiastical leaders and begging for answers.....

So I started the sojourn of wanting so desperately to believe and looking for ways to help me make sense of it all.

I was a.... member with a very strong testimony.

Rufus, your comments are rather confusing. I generally would define a "strong testimony" as one that believes with confidence in what one believes rather than "wanting so desperately to believe". Perhaps it is just the timing that has me confused and that your strong testimony was shaken at the time of reading RSR due to emotions associated with old experiences that you were reminded of for some reason which then led you to the "begging for answers" from your leaders. Is this accurate?

[Mark Beesley]

(And before you holier than thou, pious posters on here try to judge me, please understand, I was in a bishopric in Utah. I have been in an Elder's quorum presidency, and I have held many other leadership positions. I have six kids all under the age of 15. I was a 6th generation member with a very strong testimony. You would be wise to heed my words and to humble your tone and set as your mission a desire to bring souls unto Christ, rather than the opposite).

Thank-you for the opportunity to respond!

Rufus

When I read something like this, I begin to wonder if there really isn't more to the Calvinistic TULIP model of salvation than I have conceded in the past. I've been in some of the same callings as Rufus (and then some), read the same book, as well as some other decidedly less-faith promoting, and been disappointed with interactions with some in the Church (including an apostle), though my six children all over the age of 20 (oh, and my great great grandfathers include Orson Pratt, Marriner Wood Merrill, and Ebenezer Beesley). I have had my own personal struggles and demons to overcome, some of which are quite despicable. Yet through it all I have managed to maintain a quiet faith born of a witness of Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Restoration, and an expression from the Lord of His love to me. The only sense I can make of it -- why I remain (what I consider to be) a faithful Latter-day Saint while others will lose faith -- is akin to Calvin's concept of Perservence of the Saints. I have certainly done nothing in mortality to warrant the faith with which I have been blessed, but it is there nonetheless. Was it because I was more valiant in the preexistence than I have managed to be in mortality? Perhaps. Or am I simply the recipient of blessings because of the good works of my forebearers? Likely. Whatever the reason, the challenge I now face is being more charitable with those who have not been so endowed. We all ought to do so.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Mark Beesley

[volgadon]

It's been a little over twenty-five minutes and Rufus has been dog piled on. His story has been discounted at face value. If you take some of the comments at the beginning of this thread by Schryver, Crockett and Storm Rider and then look at the response that Rufus has received thus far, it becomes apparent that there may be some merit to what he has to say. Look in the mirror people...Regards,MG Regards,MG

Look in the mirror, that is kind of what we want Rufus to do. I did not discount his story, but commented on an attitude I find baffling. Unless you are saying that sincere, respectful disagreement is verbotten, what was wrong with that?

[Calm]

The only thing that matters to me is that someone in a Church Leadership role (GA or an Apostle) made the decision that this article was inappropriate to be published.

I don't believe we actually know this.

[William Schryver]

The only thing that matters to me is that someone in a Church Leadership role (GA or an Apostle) made the decision that this article was inappropriate to be published. For me, this is all that really matters. This decision was made by our Leaders and we should not be questioning the wisdom of such a decision.

It would be interesting to see an email or other corresponce from this GA or Apostle and the reasons they felt this article was inappropriate, though.

Also, I don't think the personal attacks by both sides are justified.

And thus we see how quickly and effectively the propaganda does its work! Already this story has achieved the status of "things as they really were."

[Kevin Christensen]

My sojourn takes me to Mr. Peterson's writings, and he was not the only one, but the tone and vitriol of what was being written by these supposed men of God, totally turned me from a believer desperately holding on to my now fragile testimony, to a person shattered. Where was the humilty and respect of the Savior? Where was the kind and nurturing messages I had hoped for? What I found was akin to my elementary days and middle school days of schoolyard name calling and pious denunciation of those to whom the authors so disagreed.

While I have not read everything that Daniel has written, I have read a lot over the past three decades. But I must have missed these particular bits of vitrol. Especially in the biography of Mohammad. And Offenders for a Word. And the entertaining and always informative Review essays. Several academic articles, including a couple of landmark articles.. And hundreds of blog posts. Personally, when my writings get attacked, I appreciate when the offending bits are actually quoted with sources, so that I can see what the problem is, and so I can read for myself in contexts, both on the page, and in the larger social goings on. Just being denounced by narrative without evidence does not persuade me that I have done anything wrong. Honest offense there may be, but without specifics, how can I or anyone know whether it is justified? I've read criticisms of my own work that have failed to quote me, and managed to get my own beliefs and attitudes exactly wrong.

Even many of the commenters on Daniel's interview with John Dehlin at Mormon Stories admitted that Daniel was far nicer than they'd been led to expect.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Edited May 10, 2012 by Kevin Christensen