Catholic Priest Attempts To De-Convert Mormons

[why me]

A catholic priest just posted a video that is negative about mormonism on his blog. I find it unfortunate that a catholic priest would do such a thing. I believe that the catholic church should be seeking peace and reconciliation between religions and not attacking them as this priest does. In his blog entry he tells why he posted the video.

It seems that a catholic priest is attempting to de-convert mormons and to enligten catholics about the falsity of the mormon faith by posting a video about the book of abraham. I find it interesting that people who should be in favor of peace and reconciliation between faiths would resort to this. It is a long video which he took from youtube. But...the intention is clear: to stir the pot between catholics and mormons. The video is long. He gives his explanation for posting the video from his blog:

In the video I posted on the bogus Mormon Book of Abraham some Mormon believers were interviewed. They said, “We are encouraged to examine our faith, and I have thought it through and prayed about it, and I know in my heart that it’s true. I know some people may doubt it, but I have faith that what I have been taught is true.”

This made me think twice because you can meet a number of Catholics who would say much the same thing, “We are not mindless robots. We are encouraged to think our Catholic faith through and examine the beliefs. I have done this and I just know in my heart that it is true, and if I can’t explain it or prove it, then I accept it as a mystery.”

So is the reliance on ‘faith’ the same for Catholics and Mormons–or for that matter for Catholics and Seventh Day Adventist or Jehovahs Witnesses or Moonies or the Church of the Foursquare Gospel of the Revelation of the Planet Zorg of the Fourth Degree? In other words, are all faith claims equally unprovable and therefore the reliance on ‘faith’ is the same for all religions?

This is to misunderstand the Catholic view of faith. Faith is not simply trying hard to suspend your disbelief and convince yourself that you really do believe something which common sense tells you is untrue. Faith is not blind belief in a statement that has been proven wrong or impossible. Neither is faith a personal subjective experience–the Mormons’ ‘burning in the heart’ of personal conviction which proves to you that it is all true. Neither, for the Catholic, is faith a personal subjective experience of ‘encountering Christ’ or having a personal emotional experience of the religious in some way. Neither if faith going along with a particular way of life or moral teaching because it makes sense and helps you and your family be nice people. None of these are faith.

Instead, for the Catholic faith is a process similar to that engaged in by a scientist. We says that ‘faith seeks understanding’. In other words, faith is a quest to observe phenomena, gather facts, gather testimonies and witnesses, sort the data, learn how the data can be organized and understood. Then once the facts have been gathered, the witnesses listened to, the information analyzed and the mentors’ wisdom assimilated then–when these facts and education can take you no further faith completes the transaction.

The best example of how this should happen is the resurrection of Christ. The sincere and objective enquirer will consider the historical data. He must look at the life and death of Jesus Christ. He must examine the witnesses and evidence of what took place. He must consider the veracity and possibility of fraud or the witnesses making a mistake. He must weigh up the evidence and consider what other alternatives there are to such a stupendous story. This is the duty of the intelligent enquirer. If the evidence doesn’t hold up and another explanation can be given, then he must find out what it is and then supply it and dismiss the Christian claim.

However, if that cannot be done, then he must ask for faith to make the investigation complete and personal and to enable him to make the commitment to the religious truth and ask in faith for the encounter to be verified in his own experience.

This is very different from the claims surrounding the establishment of Mormonism and virtually every other religion than Judaism. The miraculous claims are bogus. The personality of the cult founder is dubious or downright scandalous. The history of the movement contradicts the claims of the religion. There is no foundational veracity. Faith in this circumstance must be a blind faith which goes against the known facts, common sense, historical research and scientific knowledge.

While there are Christians who also demand this sort of faith–and no doubt some ignorant Catholics who demand this sort of faith, this is not true Catholicism. Instead true Catholicism invites us to embark on a rigorous way of discovery. If they claims made by the Catholic church can be disproven then disprove them. We do not demand blind faith in the face of outright contradiction.

The Catholic claim is indeed stupendous, but it is also true. Faith is the God given gift to embrace that truth and make it one’s own.

One can see the video here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/im-not-a-mormon.html

[thesometimesaint]

What a self righteous pompus hack.

[bluebell]

All he's done is built a strawman and then knocked it down. Bravo little man, bravo.

[why me]

What a self righteous pompus hack.

I know. It seems that Mitt Romney running for the presidency have brought out a lot of them from the woodwork. The comment section is a riot. It seems that a church such as the lds church which does stand for good in the world is coming under a lot of criticism these days. And some catholics are showing their true colors. What is amazing is the criticism that FAIR would receive if they had such blogs. The priest is a catholic apologist.

And the video is a piece of work too. But I think that he just took it from youtube and posted it on his website.

[Kenngo1969]

My response to the Good Father, edited a bit for clarity:

I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not because of archaeology, or history, or linguistics, or any other secular discipline. I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ for the exact same reason that you are a member (and leader) of the Roman Catholic Church: because it bears good fruit in my life. If it did not bear good fruit in my life, I would not associate myself with it. You are perfectly welcome to your convictions of the truth claims of your faith, Father, and I laud your devotion to them even if there are many things related to faith about which we would disagree. But even accepting your contention of a lack of evidence underlying Mormon holy writ as true for the sake of argument, that argument rests on a simple fallacy: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And with due respect, I wonder if your approach to other faiths (and to your own faith vis-a-vis other faiths) is the most productive course. My devotion to my own faith and belief in its truth claims notwithstanding, I would never claim, as you essentially have, that God gives me fruit, bread, and fish when I ask Him, while giving those of other faiths who ask him thorns, thistles, stones, and serpents. I believe God gives His children, even those of varying religous stripes, grapes, figs, bread, and fish when they ask for them, period. While I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ because I believe it bears the best possible yield of good fruit in my life, I would never look down my nose at anyone, of whatever religious stripe, just because his or her yield differs from mine: I would congratulate him for the good fruit which devotion to his convictions bears in his life.

I believe the old adages that one should choose one’s friends wisely, and that one can tell a lot about a person by who his friends (and who his enemies) are. If part of your motivation for posting this, however small, is to attempt to curry favor with Protestant, self-styled countercultists who take a similar approach to Mormonism, I wonder, once you run out of the red meat of anti-Mormonism to feed your like-minded fellows, if you won’t be surprised to find that they’ll turn and rend you and your faith just as easily as you have attempted to rend Mormonism. There seems to be no shortage of countercultists of varying stripes: I would be surprised if anti-Mormon countercultists outnumbered anti-Catholic countercultists by a great deal.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Kenngo1969

[3DOP]

I'm not watching 56 minutes of video.

Is the whole thing about the Book of Abraham?

For the record, according to his website, Fr. Longenecker is a married priest who used to be an evangelical. I am personally unimpressed. Catholics can be unreasonable too without having been former Protestants. But being a late convert to the alleged truth seems like a poor recommendation for wisdom and leadership. That is why, in my opinion, converts such as him (and me) would ordinarily do well not to let enthusiasts thrust us into the limelight. At one time long ago I was a pastor/late convert too. Some tried to get me to "tell my story". Others, including a priest, wanted me to pursue Holy Orders. I am glad I avoided that scene. Being non-Catholic now seems like a dim memory. Every once in a while someone will bring up my past. Although I know they mean well, I am always embarrassed of it. It qualifies me as a fool.

Assuredly there are exceptions to my rule which suggests that late converts should adopt a low profile. St. Augustine was also a late convert. If I am not mistaken, LDS have learned that converts who are made into celebrities can be zealous, but ultimately unreliable. In any case, this Fr. Longenecker doesn't necessarily speak for me or any other Catholic. I'm not saying I disagree with him. I don't know anything about this Book of Abraham. I just don't have any confidence in him. I hope he perseveres as a Catholic. If you LDS say he has misrepresented you, I accept your word over his. Since you find his words offensive as a Catholic priest, I am sorry.

As others have suggested, much of the rhetoric we are seeing in recent days is more motivated by politics than good theology. I do not know what Fr. Longenecker would say, but politics being compatible with my faith, I would as readily vote for a zealous Mormon like Mr. Romney for President of the United States, as I would a lukewarm Catholic like J. Kennedy.

PS: I miss Bobby very much...I wish he could be here today. I don't call RFK lukewarm...that's not a discussion for here though!

Edited April 22, 2012 by 3DOP

[Xander]

All he's done is built a strawman and then knocked it down. Bravo little man, bravo.

If you had the faintest clue what has gone on in millions of living rooms while LDS teenagers operating as missionaries try to deconvert others from their faith, you probably wouldn't be so quick to judge this guy. The Church doesn't regulate these discussions to make sure strawman arguments are avoided nor do they monitor the kids acting as official representatives for the Church. They do not have a process by which they filter out the truly ignorant teens (probably because that would leave them with no missionary force at all). Even the elderly engage is some crackpot arguments just to get people in the Church. I listened to a mission president in Brazil go on a rant about Catholic "idolatry" before I left. I'm sure there are a number of Catholic apologists who would consider that ignorant and bigotry.

This priest probably used a video that pretty much told the truth about the Book of Abraham, but LDS believers get indignant because they do not think it is fair to give one side - even though apologetic presentations almost never provide the critical view accurately. There are a number of truths about the Book of Abraham that the Church wouldn't dare mention to those investigating the Church, and most of us outside the church see nothing wrong with listening to both sides. The fact is a quick rundown on the BoA controversy is enough to guarantee that any objective newcomer would never believe it was true. As one apologist once told me, if one doesn't begin with the testimony that the Church is true, it is difficult to imagine someone reading this information and conclude that Joseph Smith was anything aside from a fraud. And the Church knows this too, as does this Catholic Priest, which is probably why he and more and more critics are using the BoA, instead of the Book of Mormon, to wave people away from the LDS faith.

Oh, and anyone who says Mormons do not try to deconvert others from their faith is not being honest.

Xander: Your condescending tone needs to stop.

[Xander]

If you LDS say he has misrepresented you, I accept your word over his

That's rather odd.

Why accept anyone's word, when you admittedly know nothing about the subject they say he's misrepresenting? There is nothing factually inaccurate in that video.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Xander

[altersteve]

Xander, why the scare quotes around "missionaries"? If they're not "missionaries," then what are they?

[Xander]

For emphasis, since that's what missionaries do; they convert people from one belief system to another. But I gladly removed them since they bother you.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Xander

[mfbukowski]

All this from a guy who thinks bread can be flesh.

Not too convincing.

Edit: I just have to include this quote. It is laughable in the above context:

Faith in this circumstance must be a blind faith which goes against the known facts, common sense, historical research and scientific knowledge.

I am not putting down Catholics who accept the Eucharist on faith. Good for them. But when you have a guy who says this and believes THAT- I think there might be a problem.

Edited April 22, 2012 by mfbukowski

[altersteve]

For emphasis, since that's what missionaries do; they convert people from one belief system to another. But I gladly removed them since they bother you.

I never said they bothered me, but okay.

[selek1]

I am hesitant to come down too hard on our good Catholic friend.

This sort of sectarian boundary maintenance can be a plague upon any religious or non-religious group. An evangelical background (which tends to laud and legitimize such tactics) merely greases the skids for this kind of behavior.

While I find his methods and scholarship inexecrably poor, I cannot help but sympathize with his concern for those who might be misled.

How many of us post here out of a similar concern- that of countering error and falsity against the Mormon people and their faith?

No- absent any evidence to the contrary, my contention would remain that this man's sin lies not in his goal, but in his passion.

None of us are in a position to say that this is truly a "bad man"- but his zeal has quite apparently blinded him to any reason or logic that might contradict his assertions.

Edited April 23, 2012 by selek1

[Xander]

None of us are in a position to say that this is truly a "bad man"- but his zeal has quite apparently blinded him to any reason or logic that might contradict his assertions.

From what empirical basis do you claim to know this?

[Pahoran]

If you had the faintest clue what has gone on in millions of living rooms while LDS teenagers operating as missionaries try to deconvert others from their faith, you probably wouldn't be so quick to judge this guy.

Point of order: a minority of LDS missionaries are nineteen, so your blanket description of them as "LDS teenagers operating as missionaries" is intentionally misleading.

But you can only get away with your distortions by relying upon the fact that there are many who do not have "the faintest clue what has gone on in millions of living rooms." Because those who do have such a clue know perfectly well that the missionaries -- including the "teenage" minority -- do not "try to deconvert others from their faith." Instead, they have an exclusively affirmative message that focuses upon what the Church of Jesus Christ teaches and offers.

The Church doesn't regulate these discussions to make sure strawman arguments are avoided nor do they monitor the kids acting as official representatives for the Church.

Those "kids" show more maturity and respect for the beliefs of others than you do. And of course it doesn't "regulate those discussions;" how could it? It does, however, teach the missionaries to affirmatively teach the Gospel and not to tear down the beliefs of others.

I realise that that is a level of maturity that you have yet to reach, but what is the good father's excuse?

he and more and more critics are using the BoA, instead of the Book of Mormon, to wave people away from the LDS faith.

Thank you for your unwitting admission that this is what the bigots are up to.

Oh, and anyone who says Mormons do not try to deconvert others from their faith is not being honest.

Yes they are.

And the fact that you tried to pre-emptively deny it proves that they are.

Regards,

Pahoran

[bluebell]

If you had the faintest clue what has gone on in millions of living rooms while LDS teenagers operating as missionaries try to deconvert others from their faith, you probably wouldn't be so quick to judge this guy. The Church doesn't regulate these discussions to make sure strawman arguments are avoided nor do they monitor the kids acting as official representatives for the Church.

I served a mission. I can't speak for what was going on in other missions but in mine, they very much regulated discussions and they very much montiored us-a lot.

Even the elderly engage is some crackpot arguments just to get people in the Church. I listened to a mission president in Brazil go on a rant about Catholic "idolatry" before I left. I'm sure there are a number of Catholic apologists who would consider that ignorant and bigotry.

And they should. Because it is.

This priest probably used a video that pretty much told the truth about the Book of Abraham, but LDS believers get indignant because they do not think it is fair to give one side

I didn't watch the video, but was commenting solely on what he had written.

I got indignant because he was misrepresenting LDS beliefs, especially concerning faith, and then arguing against those misrepresentations.

Oh, and anyone who says Mormons do not try to deconvert others from their faith is not being honest.

Go find someone who said that then and let them know how you feel.

Edited April 23, 2012 by bluebell

[Storm Rider]

Guys, Xander is not the topic (thank God Almighty!). Each of us has learned long ago that his entire approach is that of a troll and trolls should never be fed; just ignored.

As far as the topic goes, this type of screed is what I expect out of Evangelicals. I generally hold Catholics up to a much higher standard; those who live in glass houses don't throw stones too often. When I do see this type of stuff I tend to ignore it. I hearken back to Ayn Rand's book the fountainhead; as long as people are talking about you it does not matter if it is good news or bad news; it is news and it will help you.

I want these guys to hear the footsteps of the missionary program of the Church every day of their lives. I want them to see missionaries on every corner, knocking on every door to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness. I want them to wake from their dark dreams in terror that all their members are walking away to commit themselves to live a more Christ-like life. More than that I want them to whine and complain about the Church; tell lies, half-truths, say all manner of sensationalized drivel in an attempt to scare their members into staying away from the members of the Church and the Book of Mormon. I just think it would be fun and each time they do we will be forced into opening the doors wider and wider.

Let them talk; let us follow Christ.

[selek1]

As far as the topic goes, this type of screed is what I expect out of Evangelicals.

As noted, this fellow was an Evangelical before becoming Catholic.

I want these guys to hear the footsteps of the missionary program of the Church every day of their lives. I want them to see missionaries on every corner, knocking on every door to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness. I want them to wake from their dark dreams in terror that all their members are walking away to commit themselves to live a more Christ-like life. More than that I want them to whine and complain about the Church; tell lies, half-truths, say all manner of sensationalized drivel in an attempt to scare their members into staying away from the members of the Church and the Book of Mormon. I just think it would be fun and each time they do we will be forced into opening the doors wider and wider.

Sadist.

Let them talk; let us follow Christ.

Sounds like a plan to me!

[why me]

As one apologist once told me, if one doesn't begin with the testimony that the Church is true, it is difficult to imagine someone reading this information and conclude that Joseph Smith was anything aside from a fraud. And the Church knows this too, as does this Catholic Priest, which is probably why he and more and more critics are using the BoA, instead of the Book of Mormon, to wave people away from the LDS faith.

I think that Joseph Smith would agree with this since he more or less said the same thing. I believe that he said that if he didn't experience what he experienced, he would not believe it either. The priest is using the BoA because the book of mormon attack has not worked and neither will the the BoA attack. Now of course, with all the attempts to deconstruct mormonism, it will have its effect. But one can also deconstruct all religions since a religion depends on faith and not proof. No one has proven the existence of god.

And thus, the strawman. Now lets be honest here. The priest lives in a glass house and anticatholics could make a lot of hay building the child abuse case against the catholic church. The point is: he should spend his time building the faith and not tearing down someone else's faith.

[why me]

From what empirical basis do you claim to know this?

By the tone of his posts and by lumping the mormons with the moonies.

[Storm Rider]

As noted, this fellow was an Evangelical before becoming Catholic.

Sadist.

Sounds like a plan to me!

I stand convicted of being a sadist and I cannot deny it. For all the try I fall short of true charity and compassion....and I still laugh at the thought.

[blueadept]

I want these guys to hear the footsteps of the missionary program of the Church every day of their lives. I want them to see missionaries on every corner, knocking on every door to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness. I want them to wake from their dark dreams in terror that all their members are walking away to commit themselves to live a more Christ-like life. More than that I want them to whine and complain about the Church; tell lies, half-truths, say all manner of sensationalized drivel in an attempt to scare their members into staying away from the members of the Church and the Book of Mormon. I just think it would be fun and each time they do we will be forced into opening the doors wider and wider.

Let them talk; let us follow Christ.

While I appreciate the LDS aggressive approach in engaging other non-LDS folks, I actually appreciate the 'not as aggressive' Catholic approach in being there for others at the critical times of their lives. I can wander through the local hospital , senior care centers, and the shut-ins of the community, and all the staff and others know why I'm there. It's not just the people we are visiting that we influence but it's the loved ones of these individuals that we affect as well. The church is visably there at the critical times of people's lives when they are sick, dying etc as well as the other special moments such as births, marriages, funerals etc. While I've done my fair share of door-to-door evangelization efforts, even that is geared more towards finding the fallen away Catholics and not necessarily influencing the non-Catholics. It's always nice to encourage them to come to our investigator's class, the number one goal seems to be in finding the lost sheep of the Catholic faith. As you said, let us try to be Christ-like in engaging others.

I appreciate the LDS missionary efforts and I'm not trying to knock those efforts. IMO, LDS are best known for their missionary efforts. When local folks see me, most don't see me as trying to convert them but to be an extension of the priest in being his hands and feet.

To the OP, it saddens me in the approach this Catholic priest has taken in engaging LDS members. After being married to a faithful LDS member, there are better ways to engage LDS folks. Being Christ-like should be a major trait. IMO.

[Hamilton Porter]

All I can say is, I don't want to trade problems with the Catholic Church right now. I think I'll keep the Book of Abraham.

[cinepro]

Whatever I was going to post isn't as good as Hamilton's post, so just go back and read his again.

[blueadept]

All I can say is, I don't want to trade problems with the Catholic Church right now. I think I'll keep the Book of Abraham.

A matter of perspective. I'd rather deal with the problems of the RCC than deal with the BoA.

Edited April 23, 2012 by blueadept