My Husband Has Two Questions?

[bridget_night]

He has been asking some mainstream Christians about this and getting some answers. Now, he wants to know how people with a Mormon background would answer this. Could you all help me here? Here are his questions and how he would answer them but wants to know how my lds groups would answer. Thanks, Bridget

1. What do I as a father, owe my children?

His own answer as a father of three children is: “I owe them my love (a verb-meaning to show them loving kindness; an active interest in their happiness and well being). When they are young, vulnerable, and ill equipped to take care of themselves, it means giving them shelter, food, and clothing as well as nurturing and protecting them. As adults, it means giving them counsel while respecting their more mature capacity to make their own decisions. I continue to strive helping them where needed so they can achieve happiness and have their best welfare at heart.’

So, that led him to his second question:

2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?

My husband says some Christians suggest that God owes us nothing. They consider it heresy to say otherwise. He thinks that these Christians take this perspective because they want to strongly acknowledge that man is saved by grace, not by works. They conclude that God owes man nothing. But, is that so? Is that perspective in agreement with scripture?

[Calm]

LDS would generally agree with his first answer.

As far as the second, I don't think there is any doctrine that specifically says "God "owes" mankind ____", but LDS would generally perceive that one of the reasons that God is the perfect Father is because he naturally wants to give his children everything, that he is willing to commit himself by law if his children are obedient to certain blessings. (D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise).

Also there are plenty of LDS in my experience who say that they reject the traditional interpretation of God the Father as well as the traditional view of men being purely his creatures and not eternal in and of themselves in some fashion because it would be unjust, unmerciful and unloving for God to knowingly create men only to damn them eternally since traditionally all that men are comes solely from God, (they choose sin because he has created them that way, etc.) In that sense, there is an logical inference that God owes man justice, etc. as his creator/Father.

Another way of looking at it for LDS, however, is that because God blesses us beyond anything we give to him in obedience, we are never 'out of debt' to him so in that sense, God does not owe men....but that is only because he has already given us many blessings, if he just created us and had nothing else to do with us, I doubt many LDS would view it that same way.

Edited April 16, 2012 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

Hi Bridget long time no see.

Your husbands first answer is good.

His second one not so much. From the Bible John 3:16; For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Kenngo1969]

From an LDS perspective, if God were never to covenant with us He would "owe" us nothing. However, once we reciprocally covenant with one another (God with us and we with Him), He does "owe" us something if we hold up our end of the bargain. (Aye, there's the rub! )

Doctrine & Covenants 82:10

I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say ye have no promise.

[Benjamin McGuire]

In response to the second point, I have two passages in scripture that come to mind. The first is the saying of Jesus in Matthew 7:7-11:

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

The second is Mosiah 2:20-24

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

These illustrate what Calmoriah was referring to.

Ben M.

[Freedom]

I think there is a problem of semantics with the word ‘owe’. Indeed the scriptures say we are indebted to God which suggests that he does not owe us anything, but a responsible parent, by the same token, does not owe their children anything either. On the contrary, their children are indebted to the parent who freely giving love and support.

I would suggest that God would not be God, just as a parent would not be a parent, if He did not fulfill his responsibility to care for His children. We believe that God is bound when we do what he says. Consequently one could argue that God owes us our salvation if we fulfill his word. If God were an arbitrary God who is not subject to any laws then chaos would result. If there is no point or purpose, then why have any commandments at all? There are eternal laws that God follows and one of them is to love and care for his children. Because He fulfills this responsibility, he is not in debt.

So, in short, a parent ceases to be a parent if they do not provide the support you mention. Caring this definition further, a parent does not owe their children anything in the same regard that God does not owe His children anything.

[CV75]

1. What do I as a father, owe my children?

2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?

1. To keep the word of God in serving them in all things, temporally and spiritually.

2. To keep His word in serving us in all things, temporally and spiritually.

[CV75]

…I forgot you did ask for scriptures:

Hebrews 6:13 - 18

For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, …Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us… (#2)

D&C 82:9, 10

Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation (this is for #1). I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise (this is for #2). Many parts of D&C 132 also reflect this arrangement.

Edited April 16, 2012 by CV75

[Calm]

So, in short, a parent ceases to be a parent if they do not provide the support you mention. Caring this definition further, a parent does not owe their children anything in the same regard that God does not owe His children anything.

Most societies consider parents have a duty to care for any children they bring into the world, to at least provide the basic necessities for life.

[Freedom]

Most societies consider parents have a duty to care for any children they bring into the world, to at least provide the basic necessities for life.

Agreed, but by fulfilling this responsibility, they do not 'owe' anything in the same sense that God does not 'owe' us anything. For the point of the discussion, I am limiting the definition of parent to one who fulfills their duty, just as we limit the definition of 'god' as one who is perfectly fulfills their duty.

As it states in Alma 42:25: "What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one white. If so, God would cease to be God."

I am just pointing out the problem with semantics in responding to the question.

[why me]

He has been asking some mainstream Christians about this and getting some answers. Now, he wants to know how people with a Mormon background would answer this. Could you all help me here? Here are his questions and how he would answer them but wants to know how my lds groups would answer. Thanks, Bridget

1. What do I as a father, owe my children?

His own answer as a father of three children is: “I owe them my love (a verb-meaning to show them loving kindness; an active interest in their happiness and well being). When they are young, vulnerable, and ill equipped to take care of themselves, it means giving them shelter, food, and clothing as well as nurturing and protecting them. As adults, it means giving them counsel while respecting their more mature capacity to make their own decisions. I continue to strive helping them where needed so they can achieve happiness and have their best welfare at heart.’

So, that led him to his second question:

2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?

My husband says some Christians suggest that God owes us nothing. They consider it heresy to say otherwise. He thinks that these Christians take this perspective because they want to strongly acknowledge that man is saved by grace, not by works. They conclude that God owes man nothing. But, is that so? Is that perspective in agreement with scripture?

I think that fathers need to model themselves after there own heavenly father. He gave us free agency and a guide to live a good life. But we are free to choose are own direction. But we need to model ourselves after our own heavenly parents. And if we do that, we have done a good job in raising are children. Heavenly father owes us his love and we owe him our love. Likewise for our earthly parents.

[why me]

Most societies consider parents have a duty to care for any children they bring into the world, to at least provide the basic necessities for life.

Which is not enough. Parents owe their children the experience of being raised by good parents with wholesome values. They owe their children lovely memories and constant nurturing and with some admonishing.

[zerinus]

1. What do I as a father, owe my children?

According to Mormon revelation, this is what we owe our Children:

D&C 68:

25 And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

26 For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized.

27 And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.

28 And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.

2. Since God’s preferred title is “Father,” does He owe us anything?

According to the Book of Mormon, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). "Grace" means unmerited favor. So apparently God does not owe us anything, except what He chooses to give us out of the kindness of His own heart!

[Senator]

My Husband Has Two Questions?

Two is all???

Heck, I was born and raised LDS and I've got a bucket load of questions.

[Flyonthewall]

The way I see it, our existance did not begin on this earth. What God "owes" us, in the sense of earthly parents "owing" something to their kids, was most likely given us in the pre-mortal realm.

Our time on this earth is more like one of my kids going away to college.

We each come to this earth with the Light of Christ to know good from evil, and we are presented with choices to implement what we have been taught.

[volgadon]

While obviously not written by a LDS, Abraham Joshua Heschel's "God in Search of Man" is a very moving philosophy of why God needs and wants us as much as we need and want him.

[Avatar4321]

I recommend looking to the Proclamation on the Family for what the obligations a Father has for His children.

I would argue that God has similiar responsibilities.

[spartacus]

Semantics aside people with a relationship "owe" eachother based on the type of relationship or else the relationship is broken.

The LDS side seems pretty simple and straightforward given Heavenly Father's literal fatherhood of us:

So if a human male decides to procreate, then he is accepting the responsibility of being a father. He can say that he is done upon donating genetic material, but this would only be a genetic father. For a "real" father, then, the male who procreates and takes it upon himself to raise or "father" his child, then there are responsibilities and thus things owed to the child based on the agreed upon relationship of father/child.

The same would hold for Heavenly Father as he is seen as the literal spirit-father of all humans. He has taken this role not just as "genetic" spirit father, but as father who desires to continue a father role beyoned insemination. He assumedly did this in the pre-existence, but He continues to assume this role and thus this responsibility and thus continues to "owe" his children accordingly even in this life.

Given all the times and ways that we are told on Sundays and in lessons of our families being like God's family, the content of the human relationship would be the same as that of the God-human relationship just different in degree and perfection.

The Christian position seems more complicated as God is not seen as our literal spirit-father:

I would think Christians would consider God not owing humans anything not because of some artificial backstepping to preserve Grace, but because a God/Creator does not owe a creation anything once he has created it. It would be the equivalent of the "genetic father" above. If God chooses to create then His responsibility is to create; once He has done so, He "owes" nothing more.

However, since God chooses to do more than just create us He ends up with more responsibilities. The next "closer" relationship He has with us is as Judge. God being Justice, He must bring humans to justice for their actions. This is because God has not created just a shrub but a creature with choice and knowledge that good and evil are such, even that He exists, and that (given His existence and human inate knowledge of right and wrong) God is a judger. So God "owes" us justice, for punishment or reward, in this case.

Also, as has been mentioned above, God does choose to enter covenants. Thus He chooses to "owe" based on what the covenant (human) members "owe" Him. Pretty straight-forward, but otherwise, quite artificial compared to these other "innate" relationships (Creator, Judge).

Finally, since God chooses to do more than just create and judge but desires and offers to be our adoptive Father and us His adopted sons, then God's responsibility as Father leads to things that one could say God "owes" us. But then you get into a real semantical issue, which (now that I think on it more) may be what Freedom was getting at.

As far as God's relation to us as adoptive Father, it would seem strange to Christians to speak of Him "owing" us. Much like the reference to John 3:16 above, God's offer of Father is freely given from His Goodness, thus it is strange to speak of "owing" as if God would choose to withhold a freely given gift. Love does not have to be coerced, indeed cannot be. A human father can "owe" a child based on his decision to procreate but love cannot be "demanded" of him. But where love is, and in the case of God, Being Love, their is no possibility of Love being withheld. So talk of God "owing" us any good thing (that verse was cited above as well, I think) seems not only superfluous but disrespectful of Perfect Love and Perfect Giving.

One extra aspect to the Christian view of God's relationship to us - As Creator, God did not just create any creature. As stated above, He created an "agent" with knowledge of good and evil and of Himself as the source of that knowledge and thus the implication of Him being a Judge, but this is all a description of God creating us "in His image" (for Christians). Thus, in God choosing to create creatures "in His image" He is choosing to create something which, being Himself Good, He will not only prize but Love. Thus, again, God could, like a human father (or at least a good father), be said to "owe" us as our Creator. This is the closest that a Christian view would get to agreeing with an LDS view of God "owing", I think.

However, the Christian would say that, even as image-bearers, humans having rebelled from God in the Fall, were the ones who broke the relationship of "fatherly" Creator and "image-bearer" creature that was closer akin to human father and child. As rebels we broke this more intimate and (God being Love) loving relationship, we were left with the previous "more distant" or "basic" relationships of Judge and Creator. Thus God is left (without Christ's work) only "owing" us judgment (as creation has already been accomplished). Thus I would think Christians would come to their original claim that "God owes us nothing" - or more descriptively "God owes us fallen rebellious humans nothing but judgement."

Note- the topic of the "father"-liness of Heavenly Father is an interesting topic, if I can come up with a good formulation of the issue I will make a thread on it. Stay tuned.

Edited April 17, 2012 by spartacus

[bridget_night]

Thank you all so much for all your replies. Very helpful. I will get back to you on what my husband says.