The Abomination Of Creeds

[Storm Rider]

I am curious how other LDS understand Jesus' statement in the First Vision that, "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight". What was the abomination in your opinion.

As I have contemplated this statement and as I have studied several of the Creeds, I conclude that the abomination is that none of therm profess to be by revelation, yet are supposed to represent the beliefs of his followers.

When I do think of the Apostles Creed, for example, we believe its statements to a large extent:

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: We would qualify this more often then not, but it is still quite acceptable to state this.

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord: This is true for LDS

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary: This is true for LDS (See Post #4)

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell: this is true for LDS, but we would say spirit prison more precisely

5. The third day he rose again from the dead: This is true for LDS

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty: This is true for LDS

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead: True for LDS

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost: True for LDS

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints: No true

10. The forgiveness of sins: True

1l. The resurrection of the body: True

12. And the life everlasting. Amen. True

As a whole this Creed states truths. Evidently, it is not that the Creeds are incorrect per se, but that men must not speak for God without his direct revelation. Thus, it is the process of creating a creed that is the problem.

Thoughts?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Storm Rider

[CV75]

As a whole this Creed states truths. Evidently, it is not that the Creeds are incorrect per se, but that men must not speak for God without his direct revelation. Thus, it is the process of creating a creed that is the problem.

Thoughts?

In addition to direct revelation, I would add authority or keys. It seems to me that the word "creed" may also have been used to describe abominable teachings and practices, such as condemnation of infants, predestination, indulgences, etc.

[Vance]

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary: This is true for LDS

Thoughts?

I don't think so.

[Storm Rider]

I don't think so.

You know I skimmed so quickly over that; I agree we often would not use that language; however, we do not deny the veracity of Matt 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." I think we would more often simply say, Son of God. Care should be taken that we do not deny truths only because of unused vocabularly. We may clarify, but I don't think we should deny.

[LeSellers]

I am curious how other LDS understand Jesus' statement in the First Vision that, "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight". What was the abomination in your opinion.

In one of Bob Millet's books (probably written with Joseph F. M^cConkie), he or they say that the greatest knowledge is to know the true nature of God, and, conversely, the greatest error is to have an incorrect understanding of the nature of God. The Creeds, (Apostolic, Nicean, etc.) have fostered a series of grave misunderstandings about Him and our relationship to Him.

These erroneous concepts, especially about our connection to Deity as our Father, are the abomination of which Jesus Spoke that Easter morning.

As I have contemplated this statement and as I have studied several of the Creeds, I conclude that the abomination is that none of therm profess to be by revelation, yet are supposed to represent the beliefs of his followers.

When I do think of the Apostles Creed, for example, we believe its statements to a large extent:

I bolded an important phrase here. We don't believe that each word of any of the Creeds is false, nor even that all the concepts are wrong. We believe (or I do, at least) that the totality of the Creeds leads men astray by estranging them from God, their Father.

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: We would qualify this more often then not, but it is still quite acceptable to state this.

The qualification is significant. We believe that God, the Father, is actually a Father, not in some esoteric way, but literally:

1. He is the physical Father of Jesus Christ.
   
2. He is the literal, spiritual,Father of all the spirits of mankind.
   
3. Because of "b", He loves us and is actively seeking to have all of us return to Him as His true children
   

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord: This is true for LDS

Yes, it is. However, because of "b", above there is a scriptural qualification here, too: Jesus is "His Only Begotten Son in the flesh", and "the Firstborn of all Creation". The first refers to Jesus' earthly birth, the second to His spritual birth.

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary: This is true for LDS

Not quite. We know He was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, but that His literal, physical Father was God, the Father, as shown in 1.

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell: this is true for LDS, but we would say spirit prison more precisely

He, according to Doc&Cov 138, did not go to Spirit Prison, but to Paradise where He organized His forces who, on His behalf, went to Spirit Prison.

Further, "hell" as used in the Scriptures means the grave or tomb, i.e., death, not a place of punishment. I believe this is also what the Creed means in this item. It certainly is how Peter and the other New Testament writers meant it when they described those three days and nights in the tomb.

5. The third day he rose again from the dead: This is true for LDS

Absolutely.

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty: This is true for LDS

Yes.

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead: True for LDS

Yes.

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost: True for LDS

Yes.

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints: No true

Here, the word "catholic" means 'universal", as opposed to "country-specific". In a very real way, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true "catholic church" because she is universal. We don't distinguish between Korean and African or Canadian Saints. We're all of one citizenship: the Kingdom of God.

"Saints" is probably used incorrectly in this case, but, since we are "Saints", by Divine decree, and we have communion with each other, the second clause is also, in a very technical sense, true for us.

10. The forgiveness of sins: True

Indeed. That's what the Atonement is all about.

1l. The resurrection of the body: True

Yes, that's what the Resurreection is all about. (See Job 14:14a.)

12. And the life everlasting. Amen. True

True, but with the qualifier that we read "everlasting" in the light of Doc&Cov 19:13~19.

As a whole this Creed states truths. Evidently, it is not that the Creeds are incorrect per se, but that men must not speak for God without his direct revelation. Thus, it is the process of creating a creed that is the problem.

The Creed states some truths; it asserts some things that are almost true, but grievously misunderstood by most who ascribe to it; it has some outright errors, too: it mingles scripture with the philosophies of men.

You are right about the presumptuousness of men who, having neither authority nor commission of God, issue edicts supposedly in His name.

Lehi

Edited February 7, 2012 by LeSellers

[Kevin Christensen]

Joseph Smith explained the problem with creeds, while pointing out that "all of them contain some truth."

"creeds set up stakes, and say, "Hitherto thou shalt come, and no further'; which I cannot subscribe to." (TPJS, 327.)

"The most prominent difference in sentiment between the Latter-day Saints and sectarians was, that the latter were all circumscribed by some particular creed, which deprived its members [of] the privilege of believing anything not contained therein, whereas the Latter-day Saints have no creed, but are ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are made manifest from time to time. (HC 5:215.)

He also explained that "It dont [sic] prove that a man is not a good man, because he errs in doctrine"; see Ehat and Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith, 183-84.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[KevinG]

Excellent quotes Kevin! I'm going to steal some and borrow them for the IRR discussion to illustrate some points I was trying to make there.

Thanks!

[Senator]

Does the LDS Church not have its own creeds in a way?

[LeSellers]

Does the LDS Church not have its own creeds in a way?

"In a way" covers a lot of ground. What do you mean by that?

Lehi

[Senator]

"In a way" covers a lot of ground. What do you mean by that?

Lehi

Do we not also construct doctrinal certainties, the which adherents are even vetted by?

[LeSellers]

Do we not also construct doctrinal certainties, the which adherents are even vetted by?

Once more, in English (or French or Italian), please.

Lehi

[KevinG]

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. (vetted by for Baptism and Temple attendance)
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. (not vetted by)
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (not vetted by)
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. (participated in as a condition of membership)
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. (partially vetted through questions about sustaining authorities)
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. (not vetted by)
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth. (not vetted by)
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. (not vetted by)
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. (not vetted by)
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. (not vetted by)
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. (not vetted by)
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. (vetted by for Baptism and Temple attendance "are you honest in your dealings...")
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. (vetted by for Baptism and Temple attendance, in particular specific questions about chastity and virtue)
    

[BCSpace]

I am curious how other LDS understand Jesus' statement in the First Vision that, "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight". What was the abomination in your opinion.

The trinty. Sola fide and sola scriptura. Lack of priesthood authorization. etc.

Edited February 7, 2012 by BCSpace

[Senator]

Once more, in English (or French or Italian), please.

Lehi

Never mind

[LeSellers]

Never mind

When a reader does not understand the written word, it is not the reader's fault, but the writer's.

As a professional writer, I know this to be true.

Perhaps an example of this mythical LDS Creed would be helpful?

Lehi

[KevinG]

Re the OP- I do not believe it is the existance of creeds, statements of belief or articles of faith that are an offense to God. In the case of Joseph's History I read that as being more specific to the arguments of the religionists that caused contention between the sects and in light of Josephs later statements those creeds that claimed to put an end to continued revelation and understanding of God.

[cinepro]

Can someone explain the functional difference between "creeds" in Christianity, and the Articles of Faith (as highlighted by DaddyG) and Temple Recommend questions?

[mfbukowski]

Can someone explain the functional difference between "creeds" in Christianity, and the Articles of Faith (as highlighted by DaddyG) and Temple Recommend questions?

Creeds are an attempt at a summary of core doctrine- the Articles of Faith clearly are not. There is no mention of God having a body, of exaltation, and of many other core doctrines in the A of F.

[mfbukowski]

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints: No true

As Lehi has pointed out, "catholic" here means universal and I agree that in our context we would be the universal church.

The "communion of saints" is actually quite close to our concept of the Patriarchal Order and Church of the Firstborn.

[Senator]

Creeds are an attempt at a summary of core doctrine- the Articles of Faith clearly are not. There is no mention of God having a body, of exaltation, and of many other core doctrines in the A of F.

I'm sure glad the church went to the trouble to cannonize such "non-core" peripheral doctrine in creedal format.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Senator

[rameumptom]

For me, the Articles of Faith are different than creeds, in that they are very brief statements that describe our beliefs. We do not force them down others' throats. Many of them are open for interpretation, and all just describe the general LDS belief system. Whereas the creeds are imposed upon anyone who seeks to be a believer.

For instance, LDS are not considered Christian by many, because we do not follow the tradition of the Trinity. Meanwhile, we accept all those who believe in Christ to be Christian, even if they do not accept our Articles of Faith.

I think we often misquote our own scripture, btw. In D&C 1:30, where it states that we are the "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—"

I read this as saying there may be other churches that are true, and some that are also living churches, but this is the only one with which God is well pleased, because we have accepted more and greater truths, while others are often bogged down by philosophical creeds that are not based upon revelation. "True" means they contain truth. "Living" means they contain continuous revelation. We are not the only ones who are guided by inspiration, as the Spirit works in all good religions and people who seek for its gifts (Alma 29:: 30). That said, we are the only ones with the restored truths, ordinances, and covenants, placing the restored gospel on a higher rung of the ladder.

The problem with creeds are two-fold. First, when they are wrong, they teach false doctrine. This would be true in the LDS church as well, whenever some false teaching becomes popular in our religion, as well (curse of Cain, for instance). Second, is when such false doctrines are imposed upon people as a requirement for salvation. The Bible does not make believing in the Trinity a requirement for salvation, but only a belief in Christ and in his resurrection and atonement. To add other non-Biblical requirements for basic salvation is flat out wrong.

For LDS, we believe in a near universal salvation. We also believe in additional covenants/ordinances that can increase the blessings and exaltations of a person. But then many Christians believe that the more righteous a person is, the greater the reward they will receive (because the Bible teaches it).

Edited February 7, 2012 by rameumptom

[The Nehor]

Can someone explain the functional difference between "creeds" in Christianity, and the Articles of Faith (as highlighted by DaddyG) and Temple Recommend questions?

I think the primary difference is that the traditional creeds were created through reasoning out the nature of God while our tenets come from revelation. Furthermore ours are simple declarations and do not limit our ability to expand on them through further revelation.

[CV75]

Thoughts?

Another thought: the "creeds" do not reflect the doctrine of Christ as laid out in 3 Nephi (by His own statements) and other places in the Book or Mormon.

[Cobalt-70]

Does the LDS Church not have its own creeds in a way?

Yes. The Articles of Faith is a Mormon creed.

[Cobalt-70]

You know I skimmed so quickly over that; I agree we often would not use that language; however, we do not deny the veracity of Matt 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." I think we would more often simply say, Son of God. Care should be taken that we do not deny truths only because of unused vocabularly. We may clarify, but I don't think we should deny.

I think perhaps he was referring to statements by a wide swath of Mormon leaders from Brigham Young to Bruce R. McConkie to Ezra Taft Benson that that Jesus was "literally" conceived by the Father. That belief also interferes a bit with the credal statement that Mary was a virgin when she conceived.