Abc News Weighs In On Church'S Current State

[maxrep12]

If there is, indeed, a larger than tradotional in modern times apostasy from the Church taking place, it has little, and probably only secondary relevance to the many historical issues critics of the church keep on high broil, and clear and present relevance to the culture within which the Church is embedded. I can turn on the television, the radio, or go to the local video rental store and see far more pressing and motivating reasons for apostasy from the gospel than the stuff that keeps Brent Metcalf up at night.

I'm sorry Loran, this paragraph is not unfolding for me. Would you mind rewording it please?

[wenglund]

Wade, you chose specifically to reply to yours truly. Is there something about the subject matter we are dicussing here that has left you feeling unsettled or uncertain?

Yes, I am unsettled about why you are now deflecting? It is a curious reaction.

What aspects of a General Authority speaking candidly about apostasy within the church causes alarm?

You will have to tell me since until you, as a non-believer, brought this matter to my attention by starting a thread on the subject, I wasn't cognizant of it.

Are there now loose ends that you feel need to be sorted?

Yes, there are the loose ends of the "why" behind your interest in this matter as a former believer, your odd reaction to my noting your interest (or whatever word you may wish to use to explain your interest), and now your deflective reaction to my exploring your interest. It is all very curious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jeff K.]

I am wondering at the presumed apostasies now versus the ones that have occurred earlier in church history including the large groups that broke away. Are we seeing chicken little shouting out (gleefully for the anti Mormons who post here) when the perspective of history is tacitly ignored?

[Avatar4321]

We may be in a period of higher apostasy. I don't know for sure. What I do know is that if those who believe the Gospel are faithful and repent of their sins, especially among the priesthood, we will have power from on high to convince many more people to join the good ship Zion.

If not, then I wouldnt at all be surprised if we lost a number of people. But this dispensation will be the only one that ends with the Saints remaining faithful. That's the promise. And i have no doubt God's promise will be fulfilled.

[why me]

Wade, you chose specifically to reply to yours truly. Is there something about the subject matter we are dicussing here that has left you feeling unsettled or uncertain? What aspects of a General Authority speaking candidly about apostasy within the church causes alarm? Are there now loose ends that you feel need to be sorted?

I think that you are misreading him. There is no way that an apostacy is occuring that matches kIrkland where large disaffections among the leaders and members happened. So I think that his analogy was off or we are misreading his words. I do think that people are leaving over what they read on the internet. But there is no comparison with what happened in kirkland. Also, the three or four items that people find uncomfortable can be easily remedied by the lds church addressing such issues in the ensign.

[why me]

We may be in a period of higher apostasy. I don't know for sure.

I don't think that the lds church is seeing this at all. But the internet is making an impact. But this can be solved rather simply: to have articles in the ensign as they did in the 1970's about these issues. And the members will be immune from internet interpretations in so far as they wish to be.

[Bernard Gui]

Just a cursory reading of the Book of Mormon

and Bible shows all this is normal and to be expected. The number of Saints will always be small, and according to Lehi's dream and the parable of the sower, only a few of those who start on the path or spring up from the earth will complete the journey.

Bernard

Edited February 6, 2012 by Bernard Gui

[sjdawg]

I don't think I expressed any concern over LDS activity rates. They are what they are, independent of your views and mine.

I wonder why activity rates aren't included in the statistical report at General Conference. My recollection is that as a Ward Clerk we were required to report activity rates for our ward.

[rameumptom]

The reality is, the Church does have a problem. It tried battening down the hatches about a decade ago, telling everyone to not have their own personal LDS websites, etc., but to just let the Church's website deal with it.

This failed miserably. In 2004, the FAIR had a meeting of some members during its annual symposium, where one issue discussed (IIRC) was the concern that googling "Mormon" brought up more anti-Mormon websites than LDS ones.

Fortunately, the Church has done a 180 on this, and asks members to be fully engaged in Internet discussions regarding the Church. It's Mormon.org site works only because the members are placing their own profiles there and actively inviting others to view it.

We are now beginning to get a handle on such things. The Church is allowing all faithful voices to speak out for it in unofficial ways. Even people like Joanna Brooks are making inroads with people that Prop8 turned off. It may be that we are now on a path to stop the bleeding. But it will take time to fix it and turn it around. What we are doing now is a good start, with much more we can do.

[Jeff K.]

The reality is, the Church does have a problem. It tried battening down the hatches about a decade ago, telling everyone to not have their own personal LDS websites, etc., but to just let the Church's website deal with it.

This failed miserably. In 2004, the FAIR had a meeting of some members during its annual symposium, where one issue discussed (IIRC) was the concern that googling "Mormon" brought up more anti-Mormon websites than LDS ones.

Fortunately, the Church has done a 180 on this, and asks members to be fully engaged in Internet discussions regarding the Church. It's Mormon.org site works only because the members are placing their own profiles there and actively inviting others to view it.

We are now beginning to get a handle on such things. The Church is allowing all faithful voices to speak out for it in unofficial ways. Even people like Joanna Brooks are making inroads with people that Prop8 turned off. It may be that we are now on a path to stop the bleeding. But it will take time to fix it and turn it around. What we are doing now is a good start, with much more we can do.

I concur with the assessment. As a director on Public Relations I have seen how the church has moved from a fear of the internet as a tool of potential evil, towards grappling with the tool in order to take it away from the adversary.

[LeSellers]

I wonder why activity rates aren't included in the statistical report at General Conference. My recollection is that as a Ward Clerk we were required to report activity rates for our ward.

The Brethren use these statistics to understand the needs of the Saints, to target resources to meeting those needs. They would be counterproductive released "into the wild", as it were. Activity rates are not useful because they reflect only one, albeit an important one, of many aspects that define Church membership.

People who are not fully active in Church meetings may have any number of legitimate reasons for not attending Sunday services. I, for instance, was often away on military duties and could not attend a meeting in my home ward for weeks at a time. But I was hardly a disbeliever. Some have suffered debilitating disease, and cannot attend. Their needs may be met by a temporary "home teacher" (for want of an official title) assigned by a bishop in whose ward the nursing home (for example) is, but the member's records are elsewhere, in a ward he does not attend.

Some may feel, like a few here, that they ought not attend for any of a variety of causes, but who still fervently believe the Gospel true. I know a sister whose husband forbade her attending Church (but who didn't mind, since he wasn't home, that she receive Visiting Teachers), and even disallowed Home Teachers. She was wholly inactive for all statistical purposes, but not even close to being a non-member.

Some return, even after decades of inactivity. Their covenants are still in effect, even though neglected for years. Their repentance is all that's needed to wash them clean of sin.

The issue is, in fact, covenants. Those who are still members of record, whether they like it or not, whether they realize it or not, are under covenant to always remember Him and to keep His commandments. Their names cannot simply be wiped off the records of the Church because those covenants are still valid and in effect. God will require an accounting, and those records (one of the books out of which we will be judged) will be a part of that judgment.

Lehi

[sjdawg]

The Brethren use these statistics to understand the needs of the Saints, to target resources to meeting those needs. They would be counterproductive released "into the wild", as it were. Activity rates are not useful because they reflect only one, albeit an important one, of many aspects that define Church membership.

I'll agree with you there but then why bother collecting activity rates at all? The statistic doesn't provide any context at all for why someone doesn't attend.

Edited February 6, 2012 by sjdawg

[Jeff K.]

The activity rates are just as much a help for the Stake Presidency as they are for Salt Lake. There may be local uses for the statistics. Frankly our church is big on statistics. So they naturally get sent up the ladder.

[Calm]

I wonder why activity rates aren't included in the statistical report at General Conference.

Possibly because they vary widely from ward to ward.

[maxrep12]

I concur with the assessment. As a director on Public Relations I have seen how the church has moved from a fear of the internet as a tool of potential evil, towards grappling with the tool in order to take it away from the adversary.

It seems like this is very much reactionary rather than operating from a base of inspiration on the matter. Additionally, though the church would like to take ownership of the "tool", so to speak, it has not done that yet. It may not be able to.

For such a long time the church has abdicated its role in telling its own history, that other sources naturally filled that void. There is talk of integrating their history into the actual church curriculum. Before the church attempts to reclaim the internet, perhaps they would do well to reclaim the Sunday curriculum, and actively teach their history within the 3 hour block.

Edited February 6, 2012 by maxrep12

[maxrep12]

Possibly because they vary widely from ward to ward.

Every statistic with the church will have local variances. Taken as a whole though, the statistic becomes meaningful as they no longer represents only a small sampling. This should be quite easy to understand.

Edited February 6, 2012 by maxrep12

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://www.abc4.com/...om9IYJYnRA.cspx

More than a few years ago I posted a thread here (FAIR) entitled, "Member Enthusiasm Dying on the Vine". The main thrust of the post focused on current members loosing faith due to church history, as well as our inability as member missionaries, during this new information age, to convert our social, educational, and economic peer groups. The conclusion being that if the church had not already reached a point of regression with its number of "active" members , that it soon would.

At the time of the posting there were plenty of replies to the contrary. It seemed as if every faithful board member had an anecdotal story about how their very own ward or stake had just split, or how missionary work was just gangbusters in their neck of the woods. Many faithful posters stopped in just to comment that I was simply mistaken. My favorite response went something along these lines;

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

it would seem these points were valid. I went to Church yesterday and could hardly find a place to park. Every Sunday our Ward seems more like a Stake Conference.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

http://www.abc4.com/...om9IYJYnRA.cspx

More than a few years ago I posted a thread here (FAIR) entitled, "Member Enthusiasm Dying on the Vine". The main thrust of the post focused on current members loosing faith due to church history, as well as our inability as member missionaries, during this new information age, to convert our social, educational, and economic peer groups. The conclusion being that if the church had not already reached a point of regression with its number of "active" members , that it soon would.

At the time of the posting there were plenty of replies to the contrary. It seemed as if every faithful board member had an anecdotal story about how their very own ward or stake had just split, or how missionary work was just gangbusters in their neck of the woods. Many faithful posters stopped in just to comment that I was simply mistaken. My favorite response went something along these lines;

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

it would seem these points were valid. I went to Church yesterday and could hardly find a place to park. Every Sunday our Ward seems more like a Stake Conference.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 06 February 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I concur with the assessment. As a director on Public Relations I have seen how the church has moved from a fear of the internet as a tool of potential evil, towards grappling with the tool in order to take it away from the adversary.

It seems like this is very much reactionary rather than operating from a base of inspiration on the matter. Additionally, though the church would like to take ownership of the "tool", so to speak, it has not done that yet. It may not be able to.

For such a long time the church has abdicated its role in telling its own history, that other sources naturally filled that void. There is talk of integrating their history into the actual church curriculum......I guess we will see if that does indeed take place. We shall see in the coming years.

Reactionary? Well of course you would think it reactionary, a positive spin is simply not permissible. Any action even done with inspiration can be seen as reactionary if one feels to see it that way regardless. You gave the reason in your own post and you call it reactionary. Yes for a long time the church did indeed abdicate its role, and often allowing others to define us. Such actions are reactionary in that an isolationist stance was the norm while the church was small. It basically flew under the radar. Its size is no longer so small.

In the past year the church has indeed done an excellent job of defining itself for the populace rather than allowing those who disdain the church to define it. It will continue to do so.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Every statistic with the church will have local variances. Taken as a whole though, the statistic becomes meaningful as they no longer represents only a small sampling. This should be quite easy to understand.

Then easy to prove...do you have the numbers?

[Loran Blood]

If there is, indeed, a larger than traditional in modern times apostasy from the Church taking place, it has little, and probably only secondary relevance to the many historical issues critics of the church keep on high broil, and clear and present relevance to the culture within which the Church is embedded. I can turn on the television, the radio, or go to the local video rental store and see far more pressing and motivating reasons for apostasy from the gospel than the stuff that keeps Brent Metcalf up at night.

I'm sorry Loran, this paragraph is not unfolding for me. Would you mind rewording it please?

Sorry, and there are some bad misspellings too. My spell checker has totally cased to function on this board. I have no idea why or how to get it back, so I have to do any cleaning up as best I can.

In other words, most people who are leaving the Church, and if they are leaving in larger numbers than in the recent past, are not leaving because of running across Internet sites critical of the Church and which delve into claimed historical issues or social issue stuff (like blacks and the priesthood etc.) but because of the default setting of the surrounding culture, and especially popular culture.

Internet pornography is a thousand times more salient, for most members and newly baptized members, to any upsurge in apostasy related to Internet access than Brent Metcalf, D. Quinn, or what is generally discussed at length in this forum.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Loran Blood

[sjdawg]

Internet pornography is a thousand times more salient, for most members and newly baptized members, to any upsurge in apostasy related to Internet access than Brent Metcalf, D. Quinn, or what is generally discussed at length in this forum.

CFR. Is there any information to substantiate that statement or is that your opinion only? Has there ever been a comparison (or is it even possible to compare) the number of people leaving for historical reasons vs. the number of people leaving the LDS church due to internet pornography?

[Duncan]

if I had my way I would have a renewal process for every member, say every two years. That way people who want to be on the rolls can say so but if we can't find you, you odn't want contact from the Church or you don't bother to tell anyone you moved then you're off the list. As it is I am currently in the middle of finding these lost sheep and it looks like I am now the membership clerk and ward mission leader at the same time. The missionaries work for me now.

[KevinG]

if I had my way I would have a renewal process for every member, say every two years. That way people who want to be on the rolls can say so but if we can't find you, you odn't want contact from the Church or you don't bother to tell anyone you moved then you're off the list. As it is I am currently in the middle of finding these lost sheep and it looks like I am now the membership clerk and ward mission leader at the same time. The missionaries work for me now.

There are people who have not stepped foot in a chapel in decades who would be very offended if you took them off the roles of the church.

[Pahoran]

From the question and answer session Elder Jensen was involved in, the nature of apostasy Jensen references is information based from the internet.

..."Has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? It seems like the people who I talk to about church history are people who find out and leave quickly. Is the church aware of that problem? What about the people who are already leaving in droves?"

Jensen replies:

"The fifteen men [First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve] really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now; largely over these issues. We do have another initiative that we have called, "Answers to Gospel Questions".

For more information on the nature of the dialogue Jensen participated in;http://mormon-chroni...culties-of.html

As a matter of perspective: a lot of people left during the Kirtland apostasy; but more people joined over that time. The Church still experienced net positive growth. Elder Jensen, of course, knows this.

Unfortunately, the Schadenfreude brigade probably don't. That's okay; I won't tell them if you don't. It would be a shame to disturb their premature whooping and cheering.

Regards,

Pahoran