Abc News Weighs In On Church'S Current State

[Mudcat]

Mudcat:

We just publically announce membership statistics twice a year. We MUST be tight lipped about it

C&E(Christmas & Easter) Christians are nothing new, and didn't start with the Mormons.

I too am glad to see Catholics reinvest in their own religion.

I did not know the CoJCoLDS listed statistics related to the number of non attending/inactive LDS or those that had requested to be taken from the rolls, on a biannual basis.

My mistake.

[maxrep12]

I did not know the CoJCoLDS listed statistics related to the number of non attending/inactive LDS or those that had requested to be taken from the rolls, on a biannual basis.

My mistake.

No mistake at all was made, Mudcat. You would be correct in the assumption that the church does not give an accounting to its members on stats regarding name removal, inactivity, and the like. Pretty sure the Sometimesaint is aware of this as well.

[maxrep12]

maxrep,

It does not make sense to ask for a CFR of someone's opinion. HIs very statement is the reference.

You can ask why he has that opinion.

A cfr fits perfect. He did not state he was offering an opinion.

You may ask him yourself if it is opinion, or not. I am loosing interest in his responses.

[maxrep12]

They are important to Elder Jenson because he is the executive put in charge of tracking overall trends in membership.

So you equate the LDS Church to a burning building that people must escape? Nice. That explains your point of view.

You have got to be kidding me, seriously. First you state;

Does it make you feel better about your own choices if others choose to jump off the bridge after you?

Then you come after me for the jumping out of a building response. Really?

[maxrep12]

During the latter portion of the video, a few individual church members were interviewed with their own take on the situation. From their responses, its almost as if these people didnt quite know what ElderJensen was referring to when he indicated their were a large number of members who were apostasizing.

Perhaps, from their interviews, they think that these folk who leave have kinda just slipped into inactivity. It is almost as if they are picturing a brother who has taken up a past smoking habit, now feels ashamed and so does not attend church. Maybe these people think that this is simply a call to go find that brother, challenge him to put down his cigarettes, and become a worthy priesthood holder again.

The sister who responded said that we don't rely upon the Lord during good times. These are good times? Is she not aware of the record number of home forclosures in recent years? Unemployment rates?

[Mudcat]

No mistake at all was made, Mudcat. You would be correct in the assumption that the church does not give an accounting to its members on stats regarding name removal, inactivity, and the like. Pretty sure the Sometimesaint is aware of this as well.

Thanks for the headsup Max.

I was aware of this myself and was simply taking an opportunity to chum the water.

Alas my plans have been thwarted.

[Kenngo1969]

They are important to Elder Jenson because he is the executive put in charge of tracking overall trends in membership.

So you equate the LDS Church to a burning building that people must escape? Nice. That explains your point of view.

Not to mention that he pokes you ... then conveniently says he doesn't want to get into a poking match with you ... so you can't poke back. Neat how that works, ain't it?

[jskains]

And yet the number of wards and stakes are still going up.

[maxrep12]

Not to mention that he pokes you ... then conveniently says he doesn't want to get into a poking match with you ... so you can't poke back. Neat how that works, ain't it?

Ken, please note that DaddyG started with the jumping comments, not me. Yet all of the faithfull come to his defense even though he led with that type of response. Unfortunate how that works.

[why me]

And yet the number of wards and stakes are still going up.

And this is what makes it all interesting, if true. I have also seen a disconnect with exmormons in relating the falling numbers. It just doesn't add up. I also think that romney will be a boost for the lds church because his values are playing rather well on main street.

[maxrep12]

And yet the number of wards and stakes are still going up.

It would be intersting to see an analysis of ward and stake sizes over the past couple decades. For example, are the number of active members per ward the same today as in the twenty years previous.

The number of wards could increase while at the same time the number of attending members at each ward decrease. Just curious.

Also, location wise, where are the majority of new wards and stakes forming?

[jskains]

http://ldschurchgrowth-us-canada.blogspot.com/

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

No more than any other church does. What we do is announce membership numbers. We consider that if someone attends Church services at least once a month, and/or wants to be considered active we consider them active.

Further if any member wants to leave they are free to do so at any time. All we ask so we don't keep pestering them is to wite a short letter to their Bishop saying they want to leave.

[TAO]

During the latter portion of the video, a few individual church members were interviewed with their own take on the situation. From their responses, its almost as if these people didnt quite know what ElderJensen was referring to when he indicated their were a large number of members who were apostasizing.

Perhaps, from their interviews, they think that these folk who leave have kinda just slipped into inactivity. It is almost as if they are picturing a brother who has taken up a past smoking habit, now feels ashamed and so does not attend church. Maybe these people think that this is simply a call to go find that brother, challenge him to put down his cigarettes, and become a worthy priesthood holder again.

The sister who responded said that we don't rely upon the Lord during good times. These are good times? Is she not aware of the record number of home forclosures in recent years? Unemployment rates?

Maxrep, I'll tell you what it means by good times - it means all of the advantages of electronics, tecnology, and other things that today provides.

When Elder Jensen is talking about apostacy, although he may be talking to some degree about declining membership growth, he is also talking about personal apostacy, where people aren't quite as 'faithful' because of all the distractions that exist today. As I said, I don't see people leaving the church, so I think the interpretation that he is talking about people leaving is incorrect. I believe he is talking about a more personal level, but that is my opinion... you'd have to verify to double check that.

[Loran Blood]

http://www.abc4.com/...om9IYJYnRA.cspx

More than a few years ago I posted a thread here (FAIR) entitled, "Member Enthusiasm Dying on the Vine". The main thrust of the post focused on current members loosing faith due to church history, as well as our inability as member missionaries, during this new information age, to convert our social, educational, and economic peer groups. The conclusion being that if the church had not already reached a point of regression with its number of "active" members , that it soon would.

At the time of the posting there were plenty of replies to the contrary. It seemed as if every faithful board member had an anecdotal story about how their very own ward or stake had just split, or how missionary work was just gangbusters in their neck of the woods. Many faithful posters stopped in just to comment that I was simply mistaken. My favorite response went something along these lines;

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

As has been mentioned before in other threads, the preoccupation with obscure, highly theoretical or documentarily fragmentary historical problems, and stuff like the origin and meaning of the KEP are, while they loom large for LDS intellectuals and ex or non-LDS intellectuals who immerse themselves in it and follow it, year in and year out, over long periods of time, of little interest to and, in many cases, well below the radar of most members, including very educated, intelligent members, and if so, is well below the radar of most non-members who have rarely ever thought one thing or another about the Church. I just do not percieve a state of affairs in which great concourses of people are flocking to Amazon to buy books from Signature and there are only a scant few more posters at the Trailerpark than their were 6-7 years ago.

Keep in mind that ABC News, as well as the other major news media, are, for all intents, a monoculture made of of very likeminded people who come from very similar cultural, economic, and educational backgrounds. No religion holding to beliefs such as those held to by the Church is going to recieve, or ever has recieved, very different treatment. Trust me, they don't like us, nor the EVs, nor Catholics (traditional, practicing Catholics, anyway). They love Muslims (until the time comes, that is, that they are no longer useful as mascots), Wiccans, neo-pagans, atheists, fundamentalist Darwinians, and that kind of thing, but not us. Ever. They are the Great and Spacious Building and we should not be surprised at the treatment we receive at their hands.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Loran Blood

[wenglund]

I continue to be touched by the remarkable expression of concern for LDS activity rates by former believers. It makes me wonder if, in its own way, this may be their cry for help. If so, I am listening.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 5, 2012 by wenglund

[Loran Blood]

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

Give me a break. I addressed Selek's condescending attitudebriefly and then went on to address the topic of the thread in detail.

I've never seen irony of this caliber. I don't know how this guy does it. Its inexplicable and unfathomable. Graham is terribly, terribly short on substance, but in the irony department, he excels to a degree hitherto unknown among mere mortals.

[Loran Blood]

This thread nor any other is about the editors. Although I appreciate your evaluation of my edits and actions. I suggest that what I do or think has little value to you or anyone else on this forum. Just focus on the thread topic and drop the rest of the comments.

Its an exercise in futility, Rider, but kudos to you for tyring to keep the thing in a ordered state. Its hard for me to resist firing back, and its good to see someone just brush it off. Unfortunatley, I "know" Kevin a little to well to imagine he will respond posively to your request.

That's not why he's here.

[Loran Blood]

I continue to be touched by the remarkable expression of concern for LDS activity rates by former believers. It makes me wonder if, in its own way, this may be their cry for help. If so, I am listening.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It touches me as well, although I cannot quite place the knotting of my stomach muscles as a sign of the particular "tourch" you may have in mind.

I think its actually a bit of hopeful gloating and bad conscience from the exmo balcony:

But you know me, always the pessimist.

[maxrep12]

Maxrep, I'll tell you what it means by good times - it means all of the advantages of electronics, tecnology, and other things that today provides.

Home ownership, employment stability, and having a hand in controlling your future equate to "good times". Electronics and technology can never equal the former.

When Elder Jensen is talking about apostacy, although he may be talking to some degree about declining membership growth, he is also talking about personal apostacy, where people aren't quite as 'faithful' because of all the distractions that exist today. As I said, I don't see people leaving the church, so I think the interpretation that he is talking about people leaving is incorrect. I believe he is talking about a more personal level, but that is my opinion... you'd have to verify to double check that.

From the question and answer session Elder Jensen was involved in, the nature of apostasy Jensen references is information based from the internet.

..."Has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? It seems like the people who I talk to about church history are people who find out and leave quickly. Is the church aware of that problem? What about the people who are already leaving in droves?"

Jensen replies:

"The fifteen men [First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve] really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now; largely over these issues. We do have another initiative that we have called, "Answers to Gospel Questions".

For more information on the nature of the dialogue Jensen participated in;

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2012/01/rescue-plan-to-address-difficulties-of.html

[maxrep12]

I continue to be touched by the remarkable expression of concern for LDS activity rates by former believers. It makes me wonder if, in its own way, this may be their cry for help. If so, I am listening.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't think I expressed any concern over LDS activity rates. They are what they are, independent of your views and mine.

Edited February 6, 2012 by maxrep12

[wenglund]

I don't think I expressed any concern over LDS activity rates. They are what they are, independent of your views and mine.

Of all the topics you could have chosen to discuss, you picked this one. You obviously had your reasons for doing so. In a way, that implies some form and level of concern. However, I may be using the word "concern" in a broader sense than what you may be used to. Whatever the case, perhaps you can tell me the more perfect word to use?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Jeff K.]

Those anti Mormons and their wishful thinking...... Wish more of them played poker... it would distribute their wealth that much more rapidly. They would have to take obvious pills to be anymore so.

[maxrep12]

Of all the topics you could have chosen to discuss, you picked this one. You obviously had your reasons for doing so. In a way, that implies some form and level of concern. However, I may be using the word "concern" in a broader sense than what you may be used to. Whatever the case, perhaps you can tell me the more perfect word to use?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, you chose specifically to reply to yours truly. Is there something about the subject matter we are dicussing here that has left you feeling unsettled or uncertain? What aspects of a General Authority speaking candidly about apostasy within the church causes alarm? Are there now loose ends that you feel need to be sorted?

[Loran Blood]

Home ownership, employment stability, and having a hand in controlling your future equate to "good times". Electronics and technology can never equal the former.

From the question and answer session Elder Jensen was involved in, the nature of apostasy Jensen references is information based from the internet.

..."Has the church seen the effects of Google on membership? It seems like the people who I talk to about church history are people who find out and leave quickly. Is the church aware of that problem? What about the people who are already leaving in droves?"

Jensen replies:

"The fifteen men [First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve] really do know, and they really care. And they realize that maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now; largely over these issues. We do have another initiative that we have called, "Answers to Gospel Questions".

For more information on the nature of the dialogue Jensen participated in;

http://mormon-chroni...culties-of.html

If there is, indeed, a larger than tradotional in modern times apostasy from the Church taking place, it has little, and probably only secondary relevance to the many historical issues critics of the church keep on high broil, and clear and present relevance to the culture within which the Church is embedded. I can turn on the television, the radio, or go to the local video rental store and see far more pressing and motivating reasons for apostasy from the gospel than the stuff that keeps Brent Metcalf up at night.