Abc News Weighs In On Church'S Current State

[maxrep12]

http://www.abc4.com/...om9IYJYnRA.cspx

More than a few years ago I posted a thread here (FAIR) entitled, "Member Enthusiasm Dying on the Vine". The main thrust of the post focused on current members loosing faith due to church history, as well as our inability as member missionaries, during this new information age, to convert our social, educational, and economic peer groups. The conclusion being that if the church had not already reached a point of regression with its number of "active" members , that it soon would.

At the time of the posting there were plenty of replies to the contrary. It seemed as if every faithful board member had an anecdotal story about how their very own ward or stake had just split, or how missionary work was just gangbusters in their neck of the woods. Many faithful posters stopped in just to comment that I was simply mistaken. My favorite response went something along these lines;

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

[selek1]

You were wrong then.

You're wrong now.

And the inclusion of a bit of a drive-by hit-piece doesn't make you any less wrong.

This story (and the inescapable spin imparted by those pushing an anti-Mormon agenda) are old news that have already been discussed in other threads.

http://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/wherein-the-media-play-telephone-with-the-mormon-news/

Remember, this is the same media that tried to spin Elder Jensen's private remarks about Prop 8 into a denunciation of the Church and its prerogatives.

Edited February 5, 2012 by selek1

[maxrep12]

Selek, I saw this coming ten years ago. Am I seeing a mirage, or was Jensen correct?

[selek1]

Selek, I saw this coming ten years ago. Am I seeing a mirage, or was Jensen correct?

You are seeing what you wish to see.

What you hope to see.

Almost by definition then, a mirage.

Despite the over-blown, inflammatory, apocalyptic tone offered by both Reuters and ABC (neither a friend to the Church or to religion in general), the numbers are not as ghastly as the critics and apostates are wont to pretend.

Notice that there are never any actual numbers mentioned.

Note, too, that Elder Jensen's comments were neither scripted nor vetted in any way- and were subsequently spun and misrepresented to advance a particular agenda.

You- and others like you- are taking unofficial, comparatively vague, unsubstantiated remarks and inflating them into glorious vision which suits your agenda and biases.

You- and others like you- are pushing a chimera, an illusion without a factual, quantifiable basis, and pinning your hopes to that fanciful vision.

That is, of course, your right- but don't expect the rest of us to drink the Koolaid just because you like it.

Edited February 5, 2012 by selek1

[maxrep12]

Selek, do you disagree with Elder Jensens comments with regards to the current state of member related apostasy within the church?

Selek, do not make statements claiming to know what I wish or hope for.

Edited February 5, 2012 by maxrep12

[maxrep12]

You are seeing what you wish to see.

CFR

What you hope to see.

CFR

Despite the over-blown, inflammatory, apocalyptic tone offered by both Reuters and ABC (neither a friend to the Church or to religion in general), the numbers are not as ghastly as the critics and apostates are wont to pretend.

Does ABC have to be a friend to the LDS church to be correct? I do not recall critics stating numbers. What personal knowledge of numbers are you using refute the strawman "numbers" you state critics use?

Notice that there are never any actual numbers mentioned.

When I read the ingredients label on a box, and the first ingredient mentioned is apostasy, I have an idea of the contents within. It sounds like you have better numbers than Elder Jensen. I'm all ears.

Note, too, that Elder Jensen's comments were neither scripted

let me just stop you there.... I think we all like non scripted conversations, because they are well, honest!

You- and others like you- are taking unofficial, comparatively vague, unsubstantiated remarks and inflating them into glorious vision which suits your agenda and biases.

I didn't read Jensens comments as vague at all. Quite the contrary.

You- and others like you- are pushing a chimera, an illusion without a factual, quantifiable basis, and pinning your hopes to that fanciful vision.

Okay, the previous paragraph was "glorious vision" and now we are at "fanciful vision". You are talking circles.

That is, of course, your right- but don't expect the rest of us to drink the Koolaid just because you like it.

Its not about what you or I prefer. Take this up with ABC and Jensen.

edit for spelling

Edited February 5, 2012 by maxrep12

[KevinG]

Comments: "utlm dot org is a treasure trove for those seeking accurate information regarding the history of the church..."

he. hehe... heheha... bwahahahahahahahahahaha!

RE the OP I don't care how many of us there are. I care about individuals finding and accepting covenants with Christ. I've never been one to brag about numbers or fear them. What is the trajectory of faithful LDS vs. religious belief in general? What are the causes of apostacy or falling away and what can we do about them? These are important questions.

My question for Maxrep is why are these numbers important to you? Does it make you feel better about your own choices if others choose to jump off the bridge after you?

Edited February 5, 2012 by DaddyG

[maxrep12]

My question for Maxrep is why are these numbers important to you? Does it make you feel better about your own choices if others choose to jump off the bridge after you?

Perhaps you should ask why these numbers are important to Elder Jensen and the church presidency? If I am able to jump from a burning building to safety, and you lack the bravery to do the same....well, lets not engage in poking at each other. Lets stick to the subject.

[TAO]

Perhaps you should ask why these numbers are important to Elder Jensen and the church presidency? If I am able to jump from a burning building to safety, and you lack the bravery to do the same....well, lets not engage in poking at each other. Lets stick to the subject.

Maxrep, to stick to the subject, I would say that the article is incorrect. From what I see, the active members of the church tend to stay active, and that number slowly increases.

[cdowis]

maxrep,

It does not make sense to ask for a CFR of someone's opinion. HIs very statement is the reference.

You can ask why he has that opinion.

Edited February 5, 2012 by cdowis

[KevinG]

Perhaps you should ask why these numbers are important to Elder Jensen and the church presidency? If I am able to jump from a burning building to safety, and you lack the bravery to do the same....well, lets not engage in poking at each other. Lets stick to the subject.

They are important to Elder Jenson because he is the executive put in charge of tracking overall trends in membership.

So you equate the LDS Church to a burning building that people must escape? Nice. That explains your point of view.

[dougtheavenger]

Mormons in the USA now outnumber Jews in the USA. That scares some people. You can, of course, wittle down the number of Mormons by imposing a more narrow definition than someone who was baptised a Mormon and not subsequently baptised into another faith, but if you apply the same definition to other churches, they shrink even more.

[Bond...James Bond]

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

The comment writer meant the spontaneous explosion of one of those poor missionaries that has to sit and chat with critic "haters" all day.

[why me]

http://www.abc4.com/...om9IYJYnRA.cspx

More than a few years ago I posted a thread here (FAIR) entitled, "Member Enthusiasm Dying on the Vine". The main thrust of the post focused on current members loosing faith due to church history, as well as our inability as member missionaries, during this new information age, to convert our social, educational, and economic peer groups. The conclusion being that if the church had not already reached a point of regression with its number of "active" members , that it soon would.

At the time of the posting there were plenty of replies to the contrary. It seemed as if every faithful board member had an anecdotal story about how their very own ward or stake had just split, or how missionary work was just gangbusters in their neck of the woods. Many faithful posters stopped in just to comment that I was simply mistaken. My favorite response went something along these lines;

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

One reason for many members to leave the fold have to do with time commitment and the difficulties it takes to be a member these days. Much goes into the time factor, 10 percent of income, how the church goes in the opposite direction from the world etc. Not much has to do with church history. But much more has to do with the fact that the lds have many commitments toward righteous living that may seem very strict by today's standards. Also, I do believe that the internet and the amount of antimormon websites attacking the church do not help the situation at all. So, the church is fighting a war on several fronts. But...it was no different after the kirkland bank crisis. Many left too.

[why me]

The comment writer meant the spontaneous explosion of one of those poor missionaries that has to sit and chat with critic "haters" all day.

I think that there is an active force that oppose the lds church and yet, when one looks at the lds church today and what it teaches, many could benefit from its teachings. And certainly societies all over the world would be better off they would listen to the lds church and its values structure. But...it seems that righteousness is not that popular these days. And the antimormon sites are doing a good job in casting doubt. What I find amazing is the amount of such sites...even the hatred of other christian faiths toward the mormons seem to be satanically influenced because of the hatred found on their sites about the lds.

The point is: nothing has changed since the early days of the church when the hatred allowed other christians to burn mormon homes, kill mormons, destroy their presses and a host of other crimes. It seems that if some of our most popular critic voices on the internet were alive back then, they would be the first with the match stick.

But here is the key: none of the 11 witnesses ever denied what they saw or felt with their hands. Even whitmer's mom never denied that she saw the plates. And those people went to their graves with their testimonies on their lips. Now this does get lost in the critic shuffle.

[why me]

Mormons in the USA now outnumber Jews in the USA. That scares some people. You can, of course, wittle down the number of Mormons by imposing a more narrow definition than someone who was baptised a Mormon and not subsequently baptised into another faith, but if you apply the same definition to other churches, they shrink even more.

Mormons in the USA now outnumber Jews in the USA. That scares some people. You can, of course, wittle down the number of Mormons by imposing a more narrow definition than someone who was baptised a Mormon and not subsequently baptised into another faith, but if you apply the same definition to other churches, they shrink even more.

This is true for the mainstream churches. The catholic church has lost many members to the penecostals in south and central america. People may not be so commited these days to their faith these days. The mormon church is not a sunday church. It is a cultural life choice too.

[Storm Rider]

I think that there is an active force that oppose the lds church and yet, when one looks at the lds church today and what it teaches, many could benefit from its teachings. And certainly societies all over the world would be better off they would listen to the lds church and its values structure. But...it seems that righteousness is not that popular these days. And the antimormon sites are doing a good job in casting doubt. What I find amazing is the amount of such sites...even the hatred of other christian faiths toward the mormons seem to be satanically influenced because of the hatred found on their sites about the lds.

The point is: nothing has changed since the early days of the church when the hatred allowed other christians to burn mormon homes, kill mormons, destroy their presses and a host of other crimes. It seems that if some of our most popular critic voices on the internet were alive back then, they would be the first with the match stick.

But here is the key: none of the 11 witnesses ever denied what they saw or felt with their hands. Even whitmer's mom never denied that she saw the plates. And those people went to their graves with their testimonies on their lips. Now this does get lost in the critic shuffle.

I think there is something to what you say. I used to visit the Catholic Forum quite often and some of the individuals there can only be viewed as filled with a spirit of contention and anger toward the Church. I did meet some people I would call true saints or true Christians, but that site does not really promote that type of interaction. The other sites I have visited once or twice, but I find them so shrill they are not worth visiting more than twice.

The point I would add is that if some of this is coming from Satan, then it is an affront against all righeousness and not just that found in the Church. I also believe it is attacking all activity that is moving Christ to the forefront, promoting his gospel in any degree.

[Xander]

Selek, do not make statements claiming to know what I wish or hope for.

I'm afraid this is about all you can hope for from folks like Selek. His line of defense is generally the stale old school apologetic tactic of argument via assertion (i.e. "you're wrong then and now... because I say so") highlighted with colorful rhetoric ("This is the same ole anti-Mormon, bla bla bla... that has already been refuted..."), a dash of persecution complex, and of course, the notorious psychoanalysis that says you're only here because you're a bigot with a bigoted agenda, etc etc.. He's been doing this for as long as I've seen him/her post, and he's managed to get away with it here, apparently because he's fighting for the Church's sake and he only attacks those heathens who deserve it.

Ultimately, his preferred method of non-debate does nothing to further discussion on any topic, but then, it was never intended to. Selek, Pahoran and Loran are a dying breed among the old school apologists, but it is still humorous to watch them do their magic. They seem to think that they can actually make the Church appear true by winning a rhetorical slug-fest with perceived anti-Mormons.

In any event, the simple fact of the matter is that the LDS Church is now responsible for producing more ex-Mormons than Mormons. This has been true for decades. I say they are responsible for it because ex-Mormons wouldn't be ex-Mormons had they not first been convinced by the Church, to become Mormon at some previous point in their life. Church activity rate is way below 50%. In some countries where the Church claims nearly a million, less than 20% of them really consider themselves LDS in any sense. National surveys in Chile and Brazil revealed the stunning truth about LDS activity rates in Latin America. These were the most reliable surveys because everyone was required to participate and there was no fallback to claiming LDS status.

Even LDS leaders are having to backtrack from their own comments about the mass apostasy that is taking place now. This reveals their awareness of the problem, pretty much vindicating much of what the "anti-Mormons" have been saying all along. Apostasy rates will increase the more informed people get, and in this period of technological advancement, it is getting harder and harder for the Church to hide from the internet. People are becoming more critically minded over the years. Thirty years ago Mormon missionaries has a better chance of converting folks on the streets of America. But then, back then telemarketers and pyramid schemes were more successful as well. Nowadays the truth is out on all types of scams and so Americans are more critically minded, especially when it comes to maters affecting their life and finances. Today missionaries have to deal with task of explaining away internet provided criticisms during follow up discussions. That's something we never had to deal with on my mission because the internet didn't exist.

Is the Church still growing? Of course it is. But this is mainly due to the fact that Mormons tend to have twice or thrice as many kids as the average family. This fact alone should result in consistent growth, but the church isn't growing nearly as fast or consistent as was once believed in the early 90's when LDS Church growth was all the rage. The Church likes to throw convert baptisms on the books to beef up their numbers, but they don't delete them when these people leave the Church. In my view, that is intentionally misleading. Why claim 14 million members when no honest researcher would ever state that there are really 14 million Mormons, or anywhere close to that? I doubt there are even 6 million people on this planet who consider themselves LDS in any real sense.

For example,I'm still a Mormon according to the Church. Most ex-Mormons I know are considered Mormons also. And the Church keeps consolidating and closing missions because they cannot be as productive as they originally thought when they started opening dozens of missions throughout Eastern Europe and other parts of the world. When I served in Spain in 1991, Madrid was supposed to be the flagship mission of Europe. The Church doubled the number of missionaries in one year, and then threw millions of dollars into a gigantic temple. Gordon Hinckley gave a talk in Seville and he was disgusted with the turnout. Something like 4,000 members showed up when the entire LDS membership in Spain was instructed to attend. And it appeared as if half the congregation consisted of teenage American boys wearing name tags, because all five Spanish missions were accounted for too. Baptisms per missionary plummeted over the next two years. We were lucky to get 40 baptisms a month for the entire mission of 120 missionaries, and all of us knew that only a fraction of those would be active after month. In most cases, we were baptizing teenage girls who were just excited to talk to American boys. Their tenure in the Church usually ended when their baptizing missionary ended his mission. Unless of course,he came back to marry her, which happened more times than you'd think.

So I'm hardly surprised about Church activity rates being as they are. I've looked at ward lists in areas in Atlanta and Orlando, and the number of people located within a given ward boundary is usually three to four times the number of people who actually attend. What I don't understand is why so many apologists feel like this is something they have to argue about.

[Storm Rider]

I'm afraid this is about all you can hope for from folks like Selek. His line of defense is generally the stale old school apologetic tactic of argument via assertion (i.e. "you're wrong then and now... because I say so") highlighted with colorful rhetoric ("This is the same ole anti-Mormon, bla bla bla... that has already been refuted..."), a dash of persecution complex, and of course, the notorious psychoanalysis that says you're only here because you're a bigot with a bigoted agenda, etc etc.. He's been doing this for as long as I've seen him/her post, and he's managed to get away with it here, apparently because he's fighting for the Church's sake and he only attacks those heathens who deserve it.

Ultimately, his preferred method of non-debate does nothing to further discussion on any topic, but then, it was never intended to. Selek, Pahoran and Loran are a dying breed among the old school apologists, but it is still humorous to watch them do their magic. They seem to think that they can actually make the Church appear true by winning a rhetorical slug-fest with perceived anti-Mormons.

In any event, the simple fact of the matter is that the LDS Church is now responsible for producing more ex-Mormons than Mormons. This has been true for decades. I say they are responsible for it because ex-Mormons wouldn't be ex-Mormons had they not first been convinced by the Church, to become Mormon at some previous point in their life. Church activity rate is way below 50%. In some countries where the Church claims nearly a million, less than 20% of them really consider themselves LDS in any sense. National surveys in Chile and Brazil revealed the stunning truth about LDS activity rates in Latin America. These were the most reliable surveys because everyone was required to participate and there was no fallback to claiming LDS status.

Even LDS leaders are having to backtrack from their own comments about the mass apostasy that is taking place now. This reveals their awareness of the problem, pretty much vindicating much of what the "anti-Mormons" have been saying all along. Apostasy rates will increase the more informed people get, and in this period of technological advancement, it is getting harder and harder for the Church to hide from the internet. People are becoming more critically minded over the years. Thirty years ago Mormon missionaries has a better chance of converting folks on the streets of America. But then, back then telemarketers and pyramid schemes were more successful as well. Nowadays the truth is out on all types of scams and so Americans are more critically minded, especially when it comes to maters affecting their life and finances. Today missionaries have to deal with task of explaining away internet provided criticisms during follow up discussions. That's something we never had to deal with on my mission because the internet didn't exist.

Is the Church still growing? Of course it is. But this is mainly due to the fact that Mormons tend to have twice or thrice as many kids as the average family. This fact alone should result in consistent growth, but the church isn't growing nearly as fast or consistent as was once believed in the early 90's when LDS Church growth was all the rage. The Church likes to throw convert baptisms on the books to beef up their numbers, but they don't delete them when these people leave the Church. In my view, that is intentionally misleading. Why claim 14 million members when no honest researcher would ever state that there are really 14 million Mormons, or anywhere close to that? I doubt there are even 6 million people on this planet who consider themselves LDS in any real sense.

For example,I'm still a Mormon according to the Church. Most ex-Mormons I know are considered Mormons also. And the Church keeps consolidating and closing missions because they cannot be as productive as they originally thought when they started opening dozens of missions throughout Eastern Europe and other parts of the world. When I served in Spain in 1991, Madrid was supposed to be the flagship mission of Europe. The Church doubled the number of missionaries in one year, and then threw millions of dollars into a gigantic temple. Gordon Hinckley gave a talk in Seville and he was disgusted with the turnout. Something like 4,000 members showed up when the entire LDS membership in Spain was instructed to attend. And it appeared as if half the congregation consisted of teenage American boys wearing name tags, because all five Spanish missions were accounted for too. Baptisms per missionary plummeted over the next two years. We were lucky to get 40 baptisms a month for the entire mission of 120 missionaries, and all of us knew that only a fraction of those would be active after month. In most cases, we were baptizing teenage girls who were just excited to talk to American boys. Their tenure in the Church usually ended when their baptizing missionary ended his mission. Unless of course,he came back to marry her, which happened more times than you'd think.

So I'm hardly surprised about Church activity rates being as they are. I've looked at ward lists in areas in Atlanta and Orlando, and the number of people located within a given ward boundary is usually three to four times the number of people who actually attend. What I don't understand is why so many apologists feel like this is something they have to argue about.

The purpose of the thread is not Selek or any other editor. Please keep your posts focused on the topic of the thread.

[Xander]

Give me a break. I addressed Selek's condescending attitude briefly and then went on to address the topic of the thread in detail.

Funny how you never complain when your fellow apologists attempt to derail with these kinds of useless psycho-analyses. Selek presented no argument, all he did was assert that someone was a biased anti-Mormon, and that he was wrong because of that.

[why me]

I think there is something to what you say. I used to visit the Catholic Forum quite often and some of the individuals there can only be viewed as filled with a spirit of contention and anger toward the Church. I did meet some people I would call true saints or true Christians, but that site does not really promote that type of interaction. The other sites I have visited once or twice, but I find them so shrill they are not worth visiting more than twice.

The point I would add is that if some of this is coming from Satan, then it is an affront against all righeousness and not just that found in the Church. I also believe it is attacking all activity that is moving Christ to the forefront, promoting his gospel in any degree.

I know the catholic site very well because I used to post there before I was banned. Some of the posters are filled with contention and I had to wonder if they realized just what they were doing. The antimormon catholics were certainly not living their religion by being filled with so much hate.

There is so much hatred out there for the lds church and yet, when one looks at the basic teachings of the lds church, it is all about love and living the commandments. However here is my prediction: when the lds church begins to counteract the hate with their own interpretation of controversial subjects, much will be accomplshed. Of course the haters will continue to spew their hate, but many converts will come into the church strong and ready.

[Storm Rider]

Give me a break. I addressed Selek's condescending attitude briefly and then went on to address the topic of the thread in detail.

Funny how you never complain when your fellow apologists attempt to derail with these kinds of useless psycho-analyses. Selek presented no argument, all he did was assert that someone was a biased anti-Mormon, and that he was wrong because of that.

This thread nor any other is about the editors. Although I appreciate your evaluation of my edits and actions. I suggest that what I do or think has little value to you or anyone else on this forum. Just focus on the thread topic and drop the rest of the comments.

[Storm Rider]

I know the catholic site very well because I used to post there before I was banned. Some of the posters are filled with contention and I had to wonder if they realized just what they were doing. The antimormon catholics were certainly not living their religion by being filled with so much hate.

There is so much hatred out there for the lds church and yet, when one looks at the basic teachings of the lds church, it is all about love and living the commandments. However here is my prediction: when the lds church begins to counteract the hate with their own interpretation of controversial subjects, much will be accomplshed. Of course the haters will continue to spew their hate, but many converts will come into the church strong and ready.

There are haters of almost anything good or positive in the world. The more they explain themselves the more illogical their arguments. I certainly believe that the LDS Church and her members catch more than their fair share of these types of comments, I also realize that at times we have members that fall into the same kind of diatribes. Sometimes people are just having a bad day or they are angry about some offense. Regardless, the disciples of Christ will always recognize where they have done wrong and try to better. Those who are not will just keep doing what they are doing and will be sources of bitterness and unhappiness in the world.

I was banned from the other site also. They ban almost all, if not every, LDS at some point. They have a particularly virulent lot there now that rules the roost. However, there remain those wonderful rays of sunshine and hope.

[Mudcat]

http://www.abc4.com/...om9IYJYnRA.cspx

More than a few years ago I posted a thread here (FAIR) entitled, "Member Enthusiasm Dying on the Vine". The main thrust of the post focused on current members loosing faith due to church history, as well as our inability as member missionaries, during this new information age, to convert our social, educational, and economic peer groups. The conclusion being that if the church had not already reached a point of regression with its number of "active" members , that it soon would.

At the time of the posting there were plenty of replies to the contrary. It seemed as if every faithful board member had an anecdotal story about how their very own ward or stake had just split, or how missionary work was just gangbusters in their neck of the woods. Many faithful posters stopped in just to comment that I was simply mistaken. My favorite response went something along these lines;

"Due to new multimedia capabilities across the internet, I feel the church is on the cusp of a missionary explosion".

Hi Max,

Given the current attention that LDS seem to be drawing, due primarily to Romney's campaign. IMO, I think Elder Jensen's comments were timely, as I feel the CoJCoLDS may be more intensively examined under the media microscope, so to speak, in the near future.

Attrition in the ranks is something most of Christianity has been facing and I expect the actual numbers have been panning out the same way for LDS for some time. The CoJCoLDS gives the appearance of being fairly tight lipped when it comes to offering membership statistics to the public, or at least this is the impression I have had and I think it's good to see a GA being candid about it. It's no wonder given the current attention the Mormon faith has been getting that his statement would go unnoticed by the media.

I am no Carnac the Magnificent, but I would anticipate that Elder Jensen's comments are the beginnings of a launch platform for something similar the "Catholics Come Home" program. I am leaving a link on some information about the success of that program.

http://nineteensixty...-for-visit.html

I was impressed that the program has leading to an average 10% bump in Catholic attendance over normative rates . It's something all Christian faiths should look into emulating or improving upon IMO.

Regards,

Mudcat

Edited February 5, 2012 by Mudcat

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

We just publically announce membership statistics twice a year. We MUST be tight lipped about it

C&E(Christmas & Easter) Christians are nothing new, and didn't start with the Mormons.

I too am glad to see Catholics reinvest in their own religion.

Edited February 5, 2012 by thesometimesaint