rongo Posted February 1, 2012 Posted February 1, 2012 I'm told that ca. 25% of operating expenses for my state's BSA camps are covered by FOS; yet, I've also heard that these largely (or exclusively) cover salaries for BSA executives, conventions, etc.Any idea how one can definitively determine how much (or how little) FOS funds directly affect my son? Or, where specifically FOS funds go (with indisputable, non-agenda sources)?Similarly, is there a way to find out income and expenditures (and funding sources) for BSA camps? Is this public information?Scout camps are now $400 per boy in my area, and I'd like to be able to wrap my mind around this, if I can. I'm not very internet/e-search savvy.Thanks!
MorningStar Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 It's over $200 for my son here. The same week, my other two boys are going to Cub Camp and it will be another $80 each for them. I'm a little overwhelmed.
rongo Posted February 2, 2012 Author Posted February 2, 2012 My reason for wanting to get some valid and indisputable numbers is that I am under the annual pressure from a counselor in the stake presidency for the annual FOS drive. I'm a bishop, and have incurred wrath in the past for not reaching a quota that was set for us. We do contact the members and give them the opportunity to participate with FOS if they want to, but it's a soft sell and doesn't involve any pressure, hounding, etc. This has not made some people happy, and last year the Scout Office told my YM president that the few hundred we raised was unacceptable and that we would have to raise more. Which he did ---- when I learned about it after the fact, I told him that he should have referred the Scout Office to me, and that when we turn in our pledges and donations, then the drive is done.I think the financial burden of Scouting on members and wards (and stakes, when the chartering fees are considered) will ultimately lead to its decline as a mandatory program within the Church. It goes against so many principles that are otherwise emphasized by the Brethren, and financial hardship is increasingly a major factor for more and more members. 2
rongo Posted February 2, 2012 Author Posted February 2, 2012 Here's an excerpt from an email I got last night. My ward is "M5."We now move into the second phase of our annual duties to the ______ Council of the BSA...Friends of Scouting. As you know, the reason we do annual campaigns to raise "Friends Of Scouting" funds is because camp registration fees, uniform fees, etc., do not generate enough revenue for the ______ Council to operate _______, _______, and the other fine facilities & programs that so bless the lives of our young men . . . 25% of the budget for the ________ Council to operate comes from FOS . . . In 2011, members of M1, M2 & M5 contributed less ($1,128 in M1, $1,235 in M2 and $688 in M5) than they did in 2010 but had very similar numbers of scouts in each unit so if the brethren in M1, M2 & M5 could please do all you can to return to or exceed the 2010 levels ($1,831 in M1, $1,540 in M2 and $828 in M5) it would be most appreciated. I'm confident M5, especially, can do better . . . so certainly a concerted FOS effort should bring higher results in 2012 for M5 . . . For the rest of the brethren will you please improve? For each of the three units listed below, we're asking that you raise $50 per registered scout which unfortunately didn't happen in 2011 . . . Bro. ______...will you please connect regularly with Bro. ______ to make sure they meet the target request and they're on track to get the campaign completed by March 15? . . . There are several ways to conduct a successful FOS Campaign. I recommend you print a ward list. Please go to the Bishop and have him cross off all names of those he doesn't want contacted. From there you and the other brethren who are the adult leaders of YM may decide to set aside a few evenings to dress up in your Class A uniforms (with the YM dressed in their uniforms) and visit member homes to make the request in person.Another option is to divide the ward list (that the Bishop has redacted) in four parts. Please call those listed on one part yourself as the YM President. Please assign the YM first counselor, YM second counselor and YM secretary to call the other three parts.When calling, if you get an answering machine, please keep calling the next night and the next night until you actually speak to the Mom or Dad of the house. If you get a wrong number, please talk to the home or visiting teacher to get the right number. If Mom says Dad is in charge of spending keep calling until you speak with Dad. If Dad says Mom is in charge of family finances keep calling until you speak with Mom. Please call everyone on the list and explain as I did above that camp registration fees, uniform fees, etc., do not generate enough revenue for the ________ Council to operate ______, ______, etc.It doesn't matter if the member pledges $5, $25, $50, $200 or nothing at all. They at least need to be approached and given the opportunity. Some will be less generous than expected but others will be dramatically and surprisingly more generous.If/when we don't hit the quota that has been set for us, the arm twisting will commence. In the past, I have simply told the stake that we're done with the FOS drive. 1
Lachoneus Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 I think the financial burden of Scouting on members and wards (and stakes, when the chartering fees are considered) will ultimately lead to its decline as a mandatory program within the Church. It goes against so many principles that are otherwise emphasized by the Brethren, and financial hardship is increasingly a major factor for more and more members.Nothing in Scouting "goes against so many principles that are otherwise emphasized by the Brethren." Anyone who believes that needs to get more familiar with the Church and its programs, including Scouting.I spent 6+ years in our Ward's Bishopric, including 3+ as the COR. "The Brethren" to whom you refer are firmly behind Scouting and encourage support of Frinds of Scouting by every member of the Church, within their abilities. Here is a short video on this point put out by my Council. http://www.utahscout...1750&orgkey=220I don't see the Church's support of Scouting fading, ever. President Monson is the recipient of the Boy Scouts of America Silver Beaver Award (1971) and its highest award, the Silver Buffalo Award (1978); International Scouting’s highest award, the Bronze Wolf (1993), and, most recently, Canada's highest ward, the Silver Fox (2011). In January 2011, President Monson repeated his support for Scouting. http://www.lds.org/s...riends+scouting The Febrary 2010 New Era contains this interesting article about the relationship of the Church to Scouting. http://www.lds.org/n...riends+scoutingI have found that for Friends of Scouting it works best for me to sign-up for an automatic payment out of my checking account. It is easier for me to give $5 or $10 a month than $60 or $120 once a year. I always suggest that those of us who are doing well financially should sign-up for an automatic monthly payment. This also makes it easier on those conducting the annual FOS drive because all they have to do each year is call and ask me if I want to continue my donation. No need to come to my house. Those who cannot afford a monthly automatic payment can give $1 or $5 during the annual drive.
Storm Rider Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 My son was an eagle scout and I have never felt burdened by contributing to the FOS before my son joined scouts or after he left scouting. I was a scout as a boy and scouting has always been a part of our lives. I think there are different ways to view or different perspectives on this issue. I am not sure there is a correct way. Individuals are either supportive or not. Some can afford to contribute and others cannot. We need to feel comfortable with our own decisions and know our limitations and then not worry about the well-considered choices we make.
Craig in Austin Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Google "Boy Scout Executive Compensation". Can anyone here justify their million$ salaries? That's where a good chunk of your FOS contributions go. 1
Storm Rider Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Google "Boy Scout Executive Compensation". Can anyone here justify their million$ salaries? That's where a good chunk of your FOS contributions go.No, I can't justify that type of salary. I am one of those conservatives that feels very comfortable taxing all income above $500,000 very heavily until such time as our deficit is paid off. Part of this taxation strategy is to strongly discourage the payments of exhorbitant salaries. I have met many CEO of major companies and I think they are fine individuals, but I have never thought one of them was worth the money they were paid. In large organizations their impact is negligible and the real profits of the company is generated by those closest to the customer. I would like to see that difference in the compensation ratio between the frontline individuals and management be significantly reduced. I don't trust compensation experts for executives; they are the scoundrels that have allowed salaries at the time to spiral out of control. Not one of them earn their money and the scout executives are no different. It is a shame because it is such a great organization. 3
sjdawg Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Here's an excerpt from an email I got last night. My ward is "M5."If/when we don't hit the quota that has been set for us, the arm twisting will commence. In the past, I have simply told the stake that we're done with the FOS drive.what a joke.
Craig in Austin Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 I have a hard time getting my head around this. They take million dollar salaries, and I volunteer my time and resources for free? In addition, we're supposed to donate money to pay for these obscene salaries? I don't get it. BSA needs to learn from the GSA (although I think $400K salaries are out of line too). I'll bet we can find fine people who can do their job for much less donated money. 2
Senator Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Here's an excerpt from an email I got last night. My ward is "M5."If/when we don't hit the quota that has been set for us, the arm twisting will commence. In the past, I have simply told the stake that we're done with the FOS drive.Wow!Rongo, my heart goes out to you. You're in a tough, tough place. It's easy for a rank and file member to just say, "no thanks", but a Bishop or Councilor is expected to be enthusiasticaly on board with it all.I think you've taking the right approach in the past with the "we're done" retort. 1
silvermoon383 Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) Do we really need to go through this tìyaymak again? I am getting so sick and tired of having to defend every little thing Scouting does with FoS because some idiot of a reporter does a hatchet job of a report about salaries because he's either too lazy or dishonest enough to separate a retirement payout of benefits from the actual salary. I'm only going to say this about scout executive pay: I'm put in an application to become a district executive (the entry level) and if I get that job I will take a 5-10 thousand dollar HIT to the salary I can expect to get as an engineer.As for FoS, I've been on a drive. It was quite simple: stand up in front of a group, introduce who I am, tell them that FoS funds the district, hand out the pamphlets, show how to fill out the donation section, then collect. No arm twisting, no bullying, no yelling. Heck, we were able to tell people that we didn't need the money right then when they sheepishly admitted that they didn't have any money on them since the FoS pamphlet is a pledge card.My first time deal with FoS was only a few months after I joined up as a commissioner. At our monthly meeting the pamphlets were handed out. Most immediately started writing checks or pulling cash out of their wallets while I just sat there with a sheepish look. In private I said I had nothing to give since I was living off of my college financial aid. They immediately said not to worry about it, FoS is completely optional.ANYONE who uses bully tactics during FoS are NOT following the guidelines for the drives. Heck, it's not even following the Scout Law. Every single "FoS bully" story I've read came from some skxawng going too far. Now is a quota a bully tactic? No, industry and business run on quotas, but of course in a volunteer situation like Scouting and FoS they're not stone-written law. Edited February 2, 2012 by silvermoon383
Craig in Austin Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Do we really need to go through this tìyaymak again? I am getting so sick and tired of having to defend every little thing Scouting does with FoS because some idiot of a reporter does a hatchet job of a report about salaries because he's either too lazy or dishonest enough to separate a retirement payout of benefits from the actual salary. I'm only going to say this about scout executive pay: I'm put in an application to become a district executive (the entry level) and if I get that job I will take a 5-10 thousand dollar HIT to the salary I can expect to get as an engineer.As for FoS, I've been on a drive. It was quite simple: stand up in front of a group, introduce who I am, tell them that FoS funds the district, hand out the pamphlets, show how to fill out the donation section, then collect. No arm twisting, no bullying, no yelling. Heck, we were able to tell people that we didn't need the money right then when they sheepishly admitted that they didn't have any money on them since the FoS pamphlet is a pledge card.My first time deal with FoS was only a few months after I joined up as a commissioner. At our monthly meeting the pamphlets were handed out. Most immediately started writing checks or pulling cash out of their wallets while I just sat there with a sheepish look. In private I said I had nothing to give since I was living off of my college financial aid. They immediately said not to worry about it, FoS is completely optional.ANYONE who uses bully tactics during FoS are NOT following the guidelines for the drives. Heck, it's not even following the Scout Law. Every single "FoS bully" story I've read came from some skxawng going too far. Now is a quota a bully tactic? No, industry and business run on quotas, but of course in a volunteer situation like Scouting and FoS they're not stone-written law.Sorry, this is no "hatchet job of a report" http://www.charitywatch.org/hottopics/Top25.html Look into the details. Or not- it's your money.
silvermoon383 Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Did you see that little note at the bottom? That's NOT his salary! They admit right there that they're lumping every possible source of money into one category, which is a MAJOR accounting no-no.
Craig in Austin Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Did you see that little note at the bottom? That's NOT his salary! They admit right there that they're lumping every possible source of money into one category, which is a MAJOR accounting no-no.You are correct- it is total compensation, and you have to dig into the details. And to be fair, they gave BSA an overall "A" rating, as a charity. Also, from what I can tell, most "scout executives" are not paid that well. In my opinion however, I think they could find a fine toplevel manager, for much less money, especially if it's all from donations. I think the excess money could be better used towards the scout camps. If you dig into the details, you'll see lots of the donated money goes to pay for spouse travel costs, first class airfare, etc. If it's a for-profit organization, I can see that. Not if I am volunteering my time and resources. It's a very personal decision, where to donate your money, of course.
cinepro Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 (edited) It's over $200 for my son here. The same week, my other two boys are going to Cub Camp and it will be another $80 each for them. I'm a little overwhelmed.Every three years, our Scout troop goes to a really nice Scout camp on Catalina Island. This year, the price jumped up to $600 (it was usually in the ~$400 range, which was already a stretch)! Obviously, we hadn't budgeted for this, so we're trying to do some last minute fundraising for the boys. But I suspect this is the last time we'll be going there . It's sad because it is a really awesome camp. Edited February 2, 2012 by cinepro
Kenngo1969 Posted February 2, 2012 Posted February 2, 2012 Every three years, our Scout troop goes to a really nice Scout camp on Catalina Island. This year, the price jumped up to $600 (it was usually in the ~$400 range, which was already a stretch)! Obviously, we hadn't budgeted for this, so we're trying to do some last minute fundraising so the boys. But I suspect this is the last time we'll be going there . It's sad because it is a really awesome camp.Posting something like that is just sooo bad, soooo sick, soooo wrong .... soooo eeeee-vuhl on so many levels, I don't even know where to begin! I'm speechless!
ERayR Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 My reason for wanting to get some valid and indisputable numbers is that I am under the annual pressure from a counselor in the stake presidency for the annual FOS drive. I'm a bishop, and have incurred wrath in the past for not reaching a quota that was set for us. We do contact the members and give them the opportunity to participate with FOS if they want to, but it's a soft sell and doesn't involve any pressure, hounding, etc. This has not made some people happy, and last year the Scout Office told my YM president that the few hundred we raised was unacceptable and that we would have to raise more. Which he did ---- when I learned about it after the fact, I told him that he should have referred the Scout Office to me, and that when we turn in our pledges and donations, then the drive is done.I think the financial burden of Scouting on members and wards (and stakes, when the chartering fees are considered) will ultimately lead to its decline as a mandatory program within the Church. It goes against so many principles that are otherwise emphasized by the Brethren, and financial hardship is increasingly a major factor for more and more members.I say stay with the softsell. We just send a letter to the members of the ward which informs them of the FOS drive and how to donate if the want to.
ERayR Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 I have a hard time getting my head around this. They take million dollar salaries, and I volunteer my time and resources for free? In addition, we're supposed to donate money to pay for these obscene salaries? I don't get it. BSA needs to learn from the GSA (although I think $400K salaries are out of line too). I'll bet we can find fine people who can do their job for much less donated money.Where do I send my resume?
Pahoran Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 Nothing in Scouting "goes against so many principles that are otherwise emphasized by the Brethren." Anyone who believes that needs to get more familiar with the Church and its programs, including Scouting.Lachoneus,I don't read Rongo as saying that anything in scouting goes against any principles. I read him as saying that "the financial burden of Scouting on members and wards" goes against such principles. For some years, the Church has been looking for ways to decrease financial burdens on Church members; and when there are annual subs, and additional fees for camps (up to $600 per boy according to Cinepro) and FOS donations on top of it all, I can see what he is saying.Regards,Pahoran
blackstrap Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 Perhaps if we sent the scouts to Lost Wages,we could recoup costs and have a great camp at the same time. Lake Powel is a good place to houseboat camp!
blackstrap Posted February 3, 2012 Posted February 3, 2012 The type of tactics that rongo describes is wrong on several levels. Here in Canada,we are aware of the FOS but it is rarely talked about,and to my knowledge,not a significant portion of Scout budgets.
rongo Posted February 3, 2012 Author Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) Nothing in Scouting "goes against so many principles that are otherwise emphasized by the Brethren." Anyone who believes that needs to get more familiar with the Church and its programs, including Scouting.Pahoran correctly classified my comment thus:I don't read Rongo as saying that anything in scouting goes against any principles. I read him as saying that "the financial burden of Scouting on members and wards" goes against such principles. For some years, the Church has been looking for ways to decrease financial burdens on Church members; and when there are annual subs, and additional fees for camps (up to $600 per boy according to Cinepro) and FOS donations on top of it all, I can see what he is saying.The time and money demands of Scouting absolutely contradict the guidelines about time and money commitments that have been emphasized by the Brethren for decades, and in the handbooks of instruction. One can see this tension from contradiction in the exception granted for fundraising: fundraisers are to be avoided if possible (that's the ideal and the standard) ---- if they can't be avoided, wards may hold *one* fundraiser for camp only. Because BSA camps are so expensive, this effectively means that almost all wards hold fundraisers, and many violate the policy in having more than one and in using proceeds for things other than camp.I don't see the Church's support of Scouting fading, ever. It either will, or it won't. Either you (and avid Scouters) are right, or I (and those who would like to sunset it) are. Time will tell. What I do know, and what I see from my tenure as a bishop, counselor in two bishoprics, and one who has served in young mens is that something will have to give when it comes to time and money demands of members. I don't think anyone can argue that this change will be in the direction of Church-sanctioned increases in them. And BSA, in the last decades, has become more meeting-oriented (Woodbadge, trainings, "Little Philmonts," Roundtable, etc.) and expensive. Many of the adults in Scouting who love it regard it and treat it as membership in a Masonic Lodge, the Elks, the Rotary, etc. and seek to spend a lot of their own time in it. The problem this presents in the Church is that most leaders are called into Scouting (as opposed to volunteering because of their own drive and motivation), but do not intrinsically have a "fraternal organization" love for it. Hence the tension.Another factor aggrivating this tension is the Belatrix LeStrange scorn ("You have to mean it, Potter!") that gung-ho Scouters have towards other adults in Scouting who try to meet the standard required of them (Fast Start, Basic Training, advancing boys and leading them on Scouting activities) but do not accept the gung-ho level of time and money commitment. Edited February 3, 2012 by rongo 2
Upacreek Posted January 15, 2013 Posted January 15, 2013 I was just asked by my Stake President in a closed meeting to commit to donating $1000 a year for the next four years to Friends of Scouting. And not to pay it directly to the BSA but give it to my Bishop. I was told that I was chosen because I could handle it. I wish it could go directly to our boys in the Ward. Our Dens get $35 a year per Den. Has anyone ever just contributed directly to their Pack?
DavidB Posted January 15, 2013 Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) I was just asked by my Stake President in a closed meeting to commit to donating $1000 a year for the next four years to Friends of Scouting. And not to pay it directly to the BSA but give it to my Bishop. I was told that I was chosen because I could handle it. I wish it could go directly to our boys in the Ward. Our Dens get $35 a year per Den. Has anyone ever just contributed directly to their Pack?Did you agree?Personally I do not have an interest in paying an executive a salary via arm twisting "donations".Funding ScoutingLeaders should follow the budget allowance guidelines in Handbook 2 to fund Scouting (see 13.2.8, 13.2.9, and 13.5). Ward budgets should be used to purchase Scouting awards and materials, as determined by local leaders. Commercially produced or packaged goods or services should not be sold.Scouting units may participate in Scout Shows, Camporees, and other BSA activities involving the sale of tickets by boys or young men, as long as all other budget allowance guidelines are met.Friends of Scouting. The Church supports the annual Friends of Scouting drive. These funds provide financial support for the local BSA council. Stake presidents and bishops oversee the drive in their units.So what you could do is encourage a fund raiser and give the money directly to the troop/pack as part of the fundraiser. Edited January 15, 2013 by DavidB
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