Verifying Friends Of Scouting And Other Expenditures

[silvermoon383]

I was just asked by my Stake President in a closed meeting to commit to donating $1000 a year for the next four years to Friends of Scouting. And not to pay it directly to the BSA but give it to my Bishop. I was told that I was chosen because I could handle it. I wish it could go directly to our boys in the Ward. Our Dens get $35 a year per Den. Has anyone ever just contributed directly to their Pack?

That is in direct contravention to how Friends of Scouting works, both on the Scouting side AND Church side. FOS donations do not go to the Bishop or anyone else in the Church, they're to be given directly to the local Scout office (if you ask your ward clerk about it he should be able to produce written instructions from Salt Lake saying exactly that. My ward's has a copy on the wall.) Nor should Church leaders be pulling members into private meetings and setting quotas.

This sounds entirely fishy, and if someone knows how to get unethical behavior from Stake Presidents reported let Upacreek know because this is one situation that needs to be.

[canard78]

Nothing in Scouting "goes against so many principles that are otherwise emphasized by the Brethren." Anyone who believes that needs to get more familiar with the Church and its programs, including Scouting.

I spent 6+ years in our Ward's Bishopric, including 3+ as the COR. "The Brethren" to whom you refer are firmly behind Scouting and encourage support of Frinds of Scouting by every member of the Church, within their abilities. Here is a short video on this point put out by my Council. http://www.utahscout...1750&orgkey=220

I don't see the Church's support of Scouting fading, ever. President Monson is the recipient of the Boy Scouts of America Silver Beaver Award (1971) and its highest award, the Silver Buffalo Award (1978); International Scouting’s highest award, the Bronze Wolf (1993), and, most recently, Canada's highest ward, the Silver Fox (2011). In January 2011, President Monson repeated his support for Scouting. http://www.lds.org/s...riends+scouting The Febrary 2010 New Era contains this interesting article about the relationship of the Church to Scouting. http://www.lds.org/n...riends+scouting

I have found that for Friends of Scouting it works best for me to sign-up for an automatic payment out of my checking account. It is easier for me to give $5 or $10 a month than $60 or $120 once a year. I always suggest that those of us who are doing well financially should sign-up for an automatic monthly payment. This also makes it easier on those conducting the annual FOS drive because all they have to do each year is call and ask me if I want to continue my donation. No need to come to my house. Those who cannot afford a monthly automatic payment can give $1 or $5 during the annual drive.

Ours is a global church. Are you aware that the church has little to no involvement in scouting outside North America (Philippines seems to be an exception)? Scouting is not an essential program.

I am sure there is lots of individual merit in becoming an Eagle scout and I'm sure there is lots of positive outcomes from involvement in Scouts for fathers and sons but it would be a shame if people got hobby horses about it being a essential to a boys salvation and personal development. It's a means, not the end. There are other means, with the same end.

I can certainly see the social advantages of the church having heavy involvement in the American Scouts and probably some great 'outreach'/PR opportunities, but the church has done very little to push it in other countries - so it's not a 'make or break' principle.

[canard78]

I was just asked by my Stake President in a closed meeting to commit to donating $1000 a year for the next four years to Friends of Scouting. And not to pay it directly to the BSA but give it to my Bishop. I was told that I was chosen because I could handle it. I wish it could go directly to our boys in the Ward. Our Dens get $35 a year per Den. Has anyone ever just contributed directly to their Pack?

Yikes! I think this kind of emotional manipulation from a priesthood leader is very dubious. You're naturally going to feel uncomfortable declining because he's a senior priesthood leader and it's drilled into us that we need to follow our leaders.

So in addition to your 10% tithing, your generous fast offering, your contributions to various missionary funds/humanitarian aid funds... you're also now being asked to put $1000/year into Scouting?

[rockpond]

I'm with Rongo on this. I am a Bishop's counselor in our ward and served in various scouting positions. There is much that I love about the Scouting program. But, our stake also puts a lot of pressure on wards to donate to FoS setting quotas and such. One year we were told that anyone with a scout "did not have an excuse" to note make at least a $65 donation. And, as noted in the letter Rongo received, every household in the ward was contacted personally to give a yes/no answer to the drive.

I have three main issues with Friends of Scouting:

1) There have been members of my ward who believed that they were donating to our own scouting program (ward/stake level). You can blame it on those individuals for not being aware or educated enough to understand the difference. But, I know from the way it was presented that it was not clear that what they were actually donating to was BSA overhead.

2) After several years of close involvement in scouting I stopped donating because I cannot, in good conscience, donate to an organization that collects such a large portion of its funding from LDS sources while not valuing some of our basic principles. For example, nearly all of the scout camps here begin or end on Sundays. This means that the LDS troops have to either get a late start (which is extremely difficult when arriving on Monday for a week long scout camp that began on Sunday) or they miss the concluding activities. Additionally, the non-LDS BSA leadership that I have interacted with is antagonistic toward the way that LDS troops operate... we don't do it "right". Admittedly, I live outside of the "Mormon Corridor" so things may be different in Utah & Idaho.

3) Last year the BSA doubled-down on their policy of not allowing openly homosexual individuals to participate as leaders or scouts. This stands in contrast to our church policy of allowing openly homosexual people who do not act on those inclinations to have full fellowship in the church. Technically we should not have registered one of the gay (but celibate) young men in our ward. But obviously, we had to.

As a church we pour a lot of money into the BSA coffers, not just through FoS but by registering every young man 8 years old and up every year regardless of their level of scout activity. I, personally, do not see the BSA doing a very good job of acknowledging our contributions.

I will support my Bishop in his decision regarding the FoS drive. But, if sought, I will provide him my counsel regarding the points above. And, on my personal moral grounds, I will not pressure members into donating.

[KevinG]

I have given time, treasure and talents to the Scouts over a quarter century and my boys and many others have benefited from it more than many other school or community based organizations. I have no qualms if an executive who manages a counsel well receives a real executive salary. The resources the BSA havs marshaled and made available to youth could not be duplicated by the Church on its own or any other youth organization less well led.

I have an easy solution for those who dislike the scouts and how they operate. Don't contribute and don't volunteer.

Frankly the same goes for Church activity.

If someone puts undue pressure on you say no. Two letters- a simple forming of "o" on the lips. One small puff of air.

[rongo]

I have an easy solution for those who dislike the scouts and how they operate. Don't contribute and don't volunteer . . . If someone puts undue pressure on you say no. Two letters- a simple forming of "o" on the lips. One small puff of air.

That's definitely the best course to follow. I didn't donate to FOS as a bishop, but I didn't make a big deal about it, either. We announced that the FOS drive was underway, put in the bulletin how one could donate, and left it at that. It was when the stake young men's presidency told my YM president that our drive was woefully short of quota, and they made him beat the bushes for hundreds more that I was upset. I told him next time, to tell them that the bishop said when we turn it in, the drive is done.

Does anyone have any idea how much money goes to BSA via the Church (FOS, charter fees, etc.)? It has to be a staggering amount. The chartering fees alone (which include any boy 11-18 in the stake, whether involved in Scouting or not, plus non-members who charter with the unit), per ward, per stake . . . Then, the FOS drive, which is solely LDS. I think that's one major consideration with general authorities who have fond memories of Scouting and see it as having great value today: nobody can bring themselves to "pull the plug" on it. If the Church pulled out of BSA, it would kill it, because of the disproportionate financial and leadership influence that the Church has. The vacuum would be too big.

That said, my 12 year-old participates in Scouts and will be an Eagle Scout --- but that's because it's his own volition. Another thing that has left me disenchanted with Scouting is how "lame" and propped up it is now, compared to past decades. Nobody can tell me that the quality of Scouts' knowledge and skills, including especially Eagle Scouts, is on a par with Scouts of past decades. I have been ordered in board of reviews not to hold boys to the requriements (e.g., if a requirement for advancement states to demonstrate certain knots, and the boy can't do them at all, pass him anyway. I had diplomatically suggested that we schedule another time so that he could practice and we'd try again ---- and was sorely reprimanded for that). My experience is that this is widespread, and not just in isolated areas. Eagle board of reviews, too. I was explicitly told not to dig into details of projects, requirements, and accomplishments, and instead to focus on how the boy *felt* about this or that. Lame. This particular boy was super-qualified and could handle anything that was thrown at him.

I think that many who romanticize Scouting project past Scouting onto current Scouting. We are definitely "Scouting-lite" as far as outcomes, skills, etc. ---- largely as an expression of the larger culture. Diplomas and degrees don't certify competency like they used to, either, and a Scouting rank or merit badge certainly is largely meaningless any more as far as representing skill, experience, and knowledge.

[DavidB]

I agree Rongon, I had a scout who had completed his Eagle Project, all that was needed was two merit badges. He did not complete one of the merit badges, all he needed to do to complete was build something his 11 year old brother had built. His packet was turned in and his is an Eagle Scout, but in my opinion he lacks the knowledge and skill set learned from the self discipline of earning an Eagle Scout award - compared to someone else i know, Eagle Scout, over 100 merit badges, top of his class in Airforce Academy, currently a very very successful medical practitioner.

We as leaders are doing a disservice by pushing kids through program with out concern for the purpose of the program.

[T-Shirt]

I have served as a bishop as well. My take is a bit different. First of all, in my opinion, the perceived pressure coming from stake leadership, is a direct result of general apathy of those conducting FOS campaigns. In other words, we don't do a very good job. FOS is voluntary and every member should clearly understand this. However, enthusiastically encouraging donation is appropriate. My ward is not a wealthy ward, but most ward members can afford a $50.00 donation, which can be spread out over the year, Many ward members can afford much more and some can't afford anything, but I could always count on an average of about $50.00 per donation, which in our ward would total about $5,000.00, far above the quota that we were given. It wasn't hard to do either and those who could not afford to donate or chose not to, for whatever reason, were not made to feel guilty. In our area, as a result of BSA policies,, the United Way, who used to provide a significant percentage of our council's funding, stopped funding, all together which made FOS that much more important.

One can complain about the National Executive's compensation, but even if you fired him and distributed all of his compensation evenly to the registered scouts, it would amount to 44 cents per boy. Or if you divided his compensation up among all the councils, that money would fund about four hours out of the year for each council.

I, too, can get frustrated by some of the things that BSA does, but FOS is not one of them. Executive salaries is not the problem that many want to make of it. It is more something that those with a political agenda choose to focus on to create class envy in order to stir the pot.

[rockpond]

I have served as a bishop as well. My take is a bit different. First of all, in my opinion, the perceived pressure coming from stake leadership, is a direct result of general apathy of those conducting FOS campaigns. In other words, we don't do a very good job. FOS is voluntary and every member should clearly understand this. However, enthusiastically encouraging donation is appropriate. My ward is not a wealthy ward, but most ward members can afford a $50.00 donation, which can be spread out over the year, Many ward members can afford much more and some can't afford anything, but I could always count on an average of about $50.00 per donation, which in our ward would total about $5,000.00, far above the quota that we were given. It wasn't hard to do either and those who could not afford to donate or chose not to, for whatever reason, were not made to feel guilty. In our area, as a result of BSA policies,, the United Way, who used to provide a significant percentage of our council's funding, stopped funding, all together which made FOS that much more important.

One can complain about the National Executive's compensation, but even if you fired him and distributed all of his compensation evenly to the registered scouts, it would amount to 44 cents per boy. Or if you divided his compensation up among all the councils, that money would fund about four hours out of the year for each council.

I, too, can get frustrated by some of the things that BSA does, but FOS is not one of them. Executive salaries is not the problem that many want to make of it. It is more something that those with a political agenda choose to focus on to create class envy in order to stir the pot.

I don't have a problem with the executive salaries at the BSA. It's a big organization and big organizations require strong, competent leadership. Such leadership comes with a pricetag.

My issue is the high level of support and hours we dedicate to a fundraising drive for an organization that seems to have so little regard for our values (particularly planning nearly all of the events in my area to include Sunday) and discriminates against homosexuals in a way that the Brethren have counseled against.

So regarding your statement that "the perceived pressure coming from stake leadership, is a direct result of general apathy of those conducting FOS campaigns." I say yes, you are probably correct. But I see valid reasons for that apathy and believe that the response from the stake presidency should not be more pressure on the ward leadership but more pressure on BSA leadership. The BSA is welcome to ignore that pressure but it comes at a cost. I don't have the figures but I assume the LDS church is the single largest donor to the BSA. Why do we provide them with so much support and (seemingly) ask for so little in return.

Would it really be so difficult for our top church leaders to say: "Hey BSA, as a God-fearing organization would it kill you to stop allowing the bulk of your camp-outs to cross into the Sabbath?" And, "By the way, BSA, if you want to help increase the FoS donations from Mormons, maybe you should stop treating our volunteer leaders like second class citizens in the scouting community."

As a counselor to our Bishop I will support him if he asks me to let members know of the opportunity to donate. But I cannot get behind the quotas that our stake sets. I guess that makes me apathetic, but not because I'm not supportive enough of FoS but because my conscience tells me we shouldn't be donating money to a charity that doesn't share my values. I'd like to be a stronger voice against this but am feeling more desirous to support my Bishop.

[omni]

For many people when they are strongly encouraged by their priesthood leaders over the pulpit and are then given a donation form in person by the scout leaders (who in my experience dread doing this) that states something along the lines of "a donation of $50 is suggested but more would be appreciated" it can seem like a little more than a "voluntary donation".

When members find out it doesn't go to cover local troops but instead to executive salaries (top national leadership is compensated at well over one million per year and local council leaders in the 200-300K range) it can seem like too much. For those of us who got married young and had lots of kids like we were told, don't have our wives working out of the home like we were told, pay tithing, generous fast offerings, donate to ward Christmas funds, missionary funds, perpetual education fund, and always offer to bring a side or dessert to ward parties like we are told...yeah even something as little as $50 can be a lot.

[bluebell]

I've lived in multiple wards as an adult and i've only ever felt pressured about FOS in one.

It was my favorite ward by far, but the way they did their FOS was to give the presentation at the beginning of a combined RS/Priesthood meeting and then require everyone present to fill out the card and tell them how much they were going to donate. No one checked to see what you wrote down or anything, but they did keep track of who filled out the form and who didn't and if you did you were marked off the list.

That year we donated 10 dollars.

[DavidB]

Can a pressured quota even be considered voluntary?

[rockpond]

I've lived in multiple wards as an adult and i've only ever felt pressured about FOS in one.

It was my favorite ward by far, but the way they did their FOS was to give the presentation at the beginning of a combined RS/Priesthood meeting and then require everyone present to fill out the card and tell them how much they were going to donate. No one checked to see what you wrote down or anything, but they did keep track of who filled out the form and who didn't and if you did you were marked off the list.

That year we donated 10 dollars.

This is similar to the way my ward has done it in previous years... Priesthood opening exercises, the FoS pamphlet is handed out, we are told that everyone MUST turn it back in with their name filled out (even if you are declining to donate) so that they can keep track. Yes or no answer is required from each household.

I understand that we all have the ability to say no. I have and will continue to do so. But, that is clearly a pressure tactic that I don't believe is reflects all that well on us.

It is also ironic to me that we did away with Bishops asking for ward budget contributions. We only allow the youth to do one fundraiser per year. And we are relatively strict about not asking members to pay to participate in most activities. Yet we have no problem bringing out the big guns to get as many people as possible to pony up for the BSA. Odd.

[silvermoon383]

I never understood the Church's insistence on no Sunday camping. Camping trips we did ourselves were never on Sundays of course, but when we went to the main summer camp that was run by the local Council going on Sunday was never an issue my first few years. The Sunday schedule would be chock full of church services for every faith and I have fond memories of having sacrament meeting in the handicraft shelter. Then one year it just stopped. So did Scout Sunday. Now I have trouble getting my Weblos scouts to wear their uniforms (you should've seen the outcry when I said that they're required to wear their uniforms to a recital we were looking at going to), and the Boy Scout leaders share the same stories. I have half a mind to go all drill sergeant on the troop when I do my uniform inspection in 2 weeks.

[Defender]

Don't get me started on friends of scouting. Last time they were collecting money, they interrupted Gospel Doctrine class. They (members of the ward assigned with collecting friends of scouting funds) walked into the class and asked the teacher if they could take a few minutes. They then spent nearly the entire class time giving us a hard sales pitch. Then they handed out donation forms and told us to put in the amount of money we planned to donate. We were told that everyone had to turn in a donation form, even if we entered $0 as our donation. They waited for everyone to fill out their form and then collected them. I turned in a blank form and luckily they didn't notice. The Gospel Doctrine teacher did not look happy during this whole ordeal. They left her with about 5 minutes of class time.

[T-Shirt]

The only reason people are asked to fill out a slip, even if no donation is given, is so that it is known who has responded so they are not bothered by being asked more than once. It is for the benefit of the potential donor and for no other reason. There should be no pressure. When I was bishop, I didn't even know how much individuals donated or even who donated. The only number we tracked was the running total so we knew where we stood against our goal.

[rockpond]

The only reason people are asked to fill out a slip, even if no donation is given, is so that it is known who has responded so they are not bothered by being asked more than once. It is for the benefit of the potential donor and for no other reason. There should be no pressure. When I was bishop, I didn't even know how much individuals donated or even who donated. The only number we tracked was the running total so we knew where we stood against our goal.

I can buy that logic. And it's good methodology if the goal is to give everyone a verified opportunity.

But the ultimate goal is actually to hit a certain goal, right? You said you tracked your progress in the regard. Then what did you do if the goal wasn't met?

I'm not trying to nitpick here... It's a sincere question coming from a new bishopric member who is gonna go through this process soon.

[rongo]

I never understood the Church's insistence on no Sunday camping . . . Then one year it just stopped. So did Scout Sunday.

It was a letter from President Packer, declaring that effective immediately, there would be no more campouts on Sunday. Period. It was around two years ago.

I think it's because Sunday worship should be a family affair, and Sunday campouts of necessity mean that dads and boys won't be at church with their families, because of a BSA activity.

As for boys/men blessing and passing the sacrament in their Scout uniforms in the chapel . . . I never understood how "Scout Sunday" lasted as long as it did.

[The Nehor]

As for boys/men blessing and passing the sacrament in their Scout uniforms in the chapel . . . I never understood how "Scout Sunday" lasted as long as it did.

Yeah, we already have a standard uniform for that

I have always wondered why the Church cannot just write one big check to BSA and then tell them to leave us alone. I do not anticipate any change while Monson is prophet. I remember at least one time he received a BSA award in General Conference. There has been a drop though in talks in GC mentioning scouting and stories about scouting. We are told to stand independent from everything under the Celestial Kingdom. I do not think BSA fits in that category.

[rongo]

It was a letter from President Packer, declaring that effective immediately, there would be no more campouts on Sunday. Period. It was around two years ago.

I think it's because Sunday worship should be a family affair, and Sunday campouts of necessity mean that dads and boys won't be at church with their families, because of a BSA activity.

I should add that years ago, while I was a counselor in the bishopric, the bishop announced that the boys were all gone and that the sacrament would need to be blessed and passed by men. My wife told me that visitors from Utah in the audience were stunned, and couldn't stop talking about how weird it was to have boys gone on Sunday to a Scout camp.

I think those who think Sunday Scout camp is a good thing are in a small minority, and President Packer finally put a stop to that nonsense.

[silvermoon383]

It was a letter from President Packer, declaring that effective immediately, there would be no more campouts on Sunday. Period. It was around two years ago.

No, it was much earlier than that. I was still in the YM program at the time (teacher or early priest if I remember right), and that was nearly 15 years ago. And since I was a branch clerk 2 years ago if there were such a letter I would've seen it. I never did.

I think it's because Sunday worship should be a family affair, and Sunday campouts of necessity mean that dads and boys won't be at church with their families, because of a BSA activity.

And the difference between that and parents running around on stake business is what exactly?

As for boys/men blessing and passing the sacrament in their Scout uniforms in the chapel . . . I never understood how "Scout Sunday" lasted as long as it did.

Because it's a time-honored tradition in Scouting? That people used to have pride in a program that promoted honorable values in boys? Besides, is there something inherently wrong in administering the sacrament in uniform? While I was in college in Norfolk we would have someone come straight from one of the bases and were in uniform and we never had an issue with them doing anything with the sacrament in it.

I should add that years ago, while I was a counselor in the bishopric, the bishop announced that the boys were all gone and that the sacrament would need to be blessed and passed by men. My wife told me that visitors from Utah in the audience were stunned, and couldn't stop talking about how weird it was to have boys gone on Sunday to a Scout camp.

Growing up it was a regular event to let the adult men handle the sacrament in my ward. At first they covered it while we at camp. Then they started doing it on Scout Sunday. Then it became a random Sunday. No one thought it was weird. Maybe that's a sign that people in Utah need to get out of the bubble.

I think those who think Sunday Scout camp is a good thing are in a small minority, and President Packer finally put a stop to that nonsense.

I think some people worship President Packer a little too much.

[Judd]

I think some people worship President Packer a little too much.

I haven't experienced this before. I have, however, seen much of the other end of the spectrum.

[canard78]

I've lived in multiple wards as an adult and i've only ever felt pressured about FOS in one.

It was my favorite ward by far, but the way they did their FOS was to give the presentation at the beginning of a combined RS/Priesthood meeting and then require everyone present to fill out the card and tell them how much they were going to donate. No one checked to see what you wrote down or anything, but they did keep track of who filled out the form and who didn't and if you did you were marked off the list.

That year we donated 10 dollars.

Wow... can you imagine they did tithing in that way? Sit everyone in a room at the beginning of the month and give them a tithing envelope then check off a list of who has and who hasn't returned it?